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All,
I hope this forum is the correct one for discussing the Golarion setting. I am not currently playing in a Pathfinder game. We are still playing a 3.5E Ptolus game. So these comments are general comments about the setting that arise out of my natural enjoyment of reading about game settings.
So, I find the Golarion gods to mostly feel a bit lackluster. Somehow, they seem to be missing something. Maybe it is because I am used to the specific gods from Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, snd the plethora of options. But I just feel that the deities lack something.
For one thing, I love the Fire domain for Pathfinder Clerics, and I love the Flame/Fire mystery for Oracles. And yet the only gods available with Fire as part of their ethos are Asmodeus & Sarenrae. Or maybe some evil Devils or evil elementals that grant spells. I am not down with evil gods, and I could not find a less interesting ethos for a good fire deity than Sarenrae if I tried. There just dont seem to be the spectrum of neutral and good gods with Fire as part of the ethos. They even made the elemental lords overtly evil here.
In fact generally, I am missing the wild / primal / wilderness Female gods I am used to. Somehow, I just cant get into male nature gods. I miss several gods that just dont have a match, either because of style, personality or gender. Selune, Kossuth, Mielikki, Ehlonna, Joramy, Wee Jas, and others.
And yeah, lots of times the genders feel wrong.
Anyway, is there a chance any more demigods might be created? Maybe a wild chaotic good or chaotic neutral goddess of fire, healing, chaos, destruction, and good? :)
I think Selune is similar to Desna in some respects--both have to do with the moon, at least.
I think the Elven god Ketephys fills the role of Ehlonna.
I'm pretty sure there are counterparts to Mielikki and Wee Jas, but I don't have my books in front of me.
I've never heard of Kossuth or Joramy.
To me, Desna is kinda dreamy / surreal. Selune is about the wild darkness, the moon werewolves, etc. There just seems a big personality and style rift there.
I am not familiar with the elven goddess you mention? What book is she in? Or if its a he, then its a mismatch for me.
Joramy is a neutral good goddess of Volcanoes, Fire, Wrath, Anger and Quarrels.
I dunno. Maybe I am just being too picky. But Sarenrae & Callistria need a love-child. :)
But I am obsessing on fire domain stuff here a bit because its been on my mind. But still, most of the Golarion gods seem the wrong gender, or just not what I want in terms of personality or ethos.
I guess I just need more time to get used to them.
For wild female nature god, go with Gozreh.
CC is male, and has none of the ethos or domsin things I like. Plus he is male. And is like a gamer made divine. I got my brew, my faithful hound, and my ex-hooker girlfriend. :) Cool, just not my thing.
Gozreh is a wild nature god that is primarily male with a male and female form/avatar, with the female form being limited to an ocean/sea context. So he doesnt work.
Among the major gods, I like Calistria, and thats about it. Urgathoa is interesting also, tho evil. I dont mind Iomedae. I guess I need to look closer at the lesser gods.
rule one ..... pretty much always made my games own gods or adding from other games
the god both grant and have power based on the belief of there followers so if i am a priest of the flying sun monkey then he is a god
Creative Director
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Anyway, is there a chance any more demigods might be created? Maybe a wild chaotic good or chaotic neutral goddess of fire, healing, chaos, destruction, and good? :)
We actually create new demigods fairly often... most of them in the categories of demon lord, empyrial lord, and the like. We'll be creating more for sure in the future.
To the OP; have you checked out Gods and Magic? There's FAR more deities in Golarion than the core 20—the chapter on deities in Inner Sea Magic reveals a lot of them, but even more are revealed in Gods and Magic.
We specifically did NOT create the deities of Golarion to have completely obvious analogs to Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk deities, though. For two reasons. First of all, many of those deities are the intellectual property of Wizards of the Coast, and we didn't want to infringe on ideas. More importantly, though, we wanted Golarion to feel different than those two settings.
If, in particular, you're looking for wild/primal/wilderness female deities (and assuming Desna doesn't do that for you, even though I'd qualify her as exactly that role), there are the demigods of the First World known as the Eldest. We don't say much about them in the Inner Sea World Guide, but there's a bit more about them in Pathfinder #36, which has an article about the Eldest and the First World.
Now, all that said... the world of Golarion mostly follows the same rules as Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms do in 3rd edition D&D, so it's actually a pretty simple matter to transpose the deities you prefer over.
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Creative Director
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Gozreh is a wild nature god that is primarily male with a male and female form/avatar, with the female form being limited to an ocean/sea context. So he doesnt work.
As for Gozreh... he/she is equally male and female. And since the majority of the world is covered with water, I'd actually say that Gozreh is a primarily female deity with a male form, with the male form being limited to clouds.
I'll be honest, Animation, I have always felt the same way about Golarion's deities. I'm a newish gamer - Pathfinder was basically my introduction to pen and paper RPG's - and they still feel...unfulfilling to me. I have purchased the "Faiths of..." books, and they helped, but on the whole, I'm left wanting something more. I, like Kyras, always make my own deities for games I run, if I can. I love Golarion and Pathfinder...but their deities are a gap I will always have to patch up myself.
Thanks for the replies.
Desna, from the half-page entry in the inner sea book, seems kinda dreamy and meditative. Stars, crystals, the night, meditation, and looking good in purple and blue seem to be her domains.
Anyway, I just spent some time glancing at the pathfinder wiki. Here are the gods I like:
Calistria - revenge, lust, etc
Brigh - fire, machines, etc
Chaldira - halfling goddess of pluck and determination, or something
Urgathoa - gluttony, disease, etc.
Alseta - doorways, thresholds, years
Angradd - fire, strength
Besmara - pirate queen
Fandarra - stone giantess, birth/death, the earth
Hanspur - the water rat - rivers, etc
Naderi - suicide, drowning, romantic tragedy
Sadly, Brigh is a sentient machine, and doesnt have a compelling ethos, and Angradd is a dwarf, and a male, and lawful. Yuck. :)
But hey, I am finding a few I am ok with. If you guys add any demigods or empyreal / angel types, throw me in a non-evil goddess of chaos, illusion, and fire up in there. :)
Oh and the reason I mentioned in my OP that I wasnt currently in a game is because there is no GM to ask. I am sure my GM would just allow me to port one or make one. It would be nice to find an official one.
Anyway, thanks to everyone for the comments.
Keep in mind that the Golarion deities detailed thus far are very focused on what's commonly worshiped in the Inner Sea region. There's whole swaths of the planet that we haven't covered yet, and your deity could very well come from there (should your GM allow a custom deity like the one you discussed).
Anyway, is there a chance any more demigods might be created? Maybe a wild chaotic good or chaotic neutral goddess of fire, healing, chaos, destruction, and good? :)We actually create new demigods fairly often... most of them in the categories of demon lord, empyrial lord, and the like. We'll be creating more for sure in the future.
To the OP; have you checked out Gods and Magic? There's FAR more deities in Golarion than the core 20—the chapter on deities in Inner Sea Magic reveals a lot of them, but even more are revealed in Gods and Magic.
We specifically did NOT create the deities of Golarion to have completely obvious analogs to Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk deities, though. For two reasons. First of all, many of those deities are the intellectual property of Wizards of the Coast, and we didn't want to infringe on ideas. More importantly, though, we wanted Golarion to feel different than those two settings.
If, in particular, you're looking for wild/primal/wilderness female deities (and assuming Desna doesn't do that for you, even though I'd qualify her as exactly that role), there are the demigods of the First World known as the Eldest. We don't say much about them in the Inner Sea World Guide, but there's a bit more about them in Pathfinder #36, which has an article about the Eldest and the First World.
Now, all that said... the world of Golarion mostly follows the same rules as Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms do in 3rd edition D&D, so it's actually a pretty simple matter to transpose the deities you prefer over.
Would it be unreasonable to assume that there are any number (a lot) of demigods throughout Golarion's history who are not dead but basically dormant due to no longer having followers or are now confined to very small regions?
If so (dormant but not dead), would they be open for a cleric to draw power from? (This basically giving a pc or an NPC a choice of about anything to worship.)
I guess what I am asking is that although I know a DM can always rule as he feels, would allowing such a demigod to be introduced (the character found an item as a kid and he was "touched" etc) be perfectly in the feel for how the world is set up?
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Creative Director
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Would it be unreasonable to assume that there are any number (a lot) of demigods throughout Golarion's history who are not dead but basically dormant due to no longer having followers or are now confined to very small regions?
If so (dormant but not dead), would they be open for a cleric to draw power from? (This basically giving a pc or an NPC a choice of about anything to worship.)
I guess what I am asking is that although I know a DM can always rule as he feels, would allowing such a demigod to be introduced (the character found an item as a kid and he was "touched" etc) be perfectly in the feel for how the world is set up?
It would indeed be reasonable to assume that. The vast majority would be elemental lords, empyreal lords, demon lords, arch devils, horsemen, eldest, and the like, but there's certainly some racial deities and obscure human deities in the mix as well. And some of them aren't really dormant as much as they are just obscure. Dormant and obscure deities are just as capable of granting spells to a cleric as any deity... but a big part of the fun of being a cleric is worshiping a deity that has support in the form of a church. I'm sure some folks would enjoy playing a cleric of a deity no one remembers... but in my opinion, that's a cooler shtick for an NPC than a PC.
But yeah... there's plenty of room to introduce a new deity. And, frankly, feel free to introduce deities from other settings. The only reason we don't, say, have a church of Tritherion or Eilistraee or Wee Jas or something like that on Golarion is because we CAN'T do that due to copyright... otherwise, as we adopted deities from real-world mythology, I suspect we would have adopted some of the older D&D deities as well. If you want clerics of Wee Jas in your Golarion... go for it!
The Great Beyond is big enough to contain all campaign settings, after all.
I kind of feel the reverse, Greyhawk gods always seemed boring and dull to me, Realms gods seemed... a little too numerous honestly, whereas Pathfinder deities had a blend of 'cookie cutter yet different' that seemed neither hot nor cold but 'just right'... for me anyway.
By way of example, while one of my least favorite deities, the goddess of lust is also the goddess of vengeance! A pairing that kind of makes sense but wasn't something I'd expect. Never mind I hate the black and yellow color scheme, song, the beehive hairdo on the artists rendition, find nothing about her to be alluring or appealing and that faiths of balance book has one of the most ridiculous swords ever conceived being wielded by one of her followers (those barbs... seriously? SERIOUSLY?). Interesting twist, however, despite my ranting run on sentence.
Desna as meditative and dreamy? Dreamy, sure, but I see her as a more free spirited and almost spritely deity than I do some 'Ohmmmmmm' meditative deity. A free spirited and spritely deity with a far deeper aspect, naturally, I mean she a goddess of the stars! That's thousands of millions of Sarenraes you know! (Take that you fire haired goddess you!)
I would like to see a goddess who strives for the destruction of those that cause harm and suffering, and aid to those who need it. Killing innocents would never be allowed, but outright murder would be a valid tactic, as long as no innocents were directly harmed. But murder wouldn't have to be the only option, but it wouldnt be frowned on, and any laws or rules that get in the way of Good being done would be ignored. In fact, Laws would be viewed as often being the tool of suffering.
So, the goddess would have Trickery and Fire for sure. Those priests who focused on magical assassination for the greater good, in particular, would have created a need for the trickery stuff, even to hide from other good or law-abiding groups, gods, or people. I would want to include Destruction for single target strikes, Healing for bringing aid and comfort to the oppressed, Good and Chaos simply because all the aligned gods seem to have the alignment domains.
Of course, thats 6 domains, and I see all the gods have only 5. So I could see going for a Chaotic Neutral goddess, who is striving to push the world towards CG, but whose tactics render her CN. That would allow me to drop Good. Otherwise, the goddess could be CG, but not have the Healing domain ... too aggressive.
Tho of course I had wanted Fire and Healing to be in the same option list.
Thats the direction I'd want to take it. Or rather that's one idea. I'm sure there could be others. Maybe go with the name Vasani because it sounds cool. Tho a quick google search shows the name is an Indian name. That is strictly co-incidental, but she could be a Vudrani goddess. Or the name could be un-related.
Anyway, just one idea.
Also, Desna may not be aloof, dreamy or distant, but she just didn't seem to have that "ranger / werewolf / moonmaiden / are you tough enough to not die alone outside at night on a mountain" vibe that I always felt Selune had. And certainly, she doesnt seem primal to me. Just my take.
BTW, what gods do Witches revere typically in Golarion? I guess their familiars get spells from sources that are perhaps more likely infernal or empyrean or some other non-upfront powers. But, really, what god would a non-evil witch, say a N, CN, or CG witch, follow?
Again, Desna just doesnt have that "eat mushrooms, strip naked, paint yourself up with warpaint like in the Conan movie, then run in and slaughter all the evil-doers to the last man and woman" that I'm quite looking for in my "wild, outdoors, night sky" kind of diety. Cayden seems too much of a city dweller type, at least in terms of the need to stay around civilization where people gather in establishments to drink and socialize kinda way. Just the wrong type. Gozreh is a maybe ... but a maybe at best. Doesnt scream Witch to me. Pharasma and Nethys? No way. Gorum, I could maybe see, except that Gorum strikes me as too much a man-at-arms and not a wild spirit god. Calistria maybe has the temperment but is a city gal. Lamashtu makes the most sense from the perspective of seeing witches as the enemy, but not for neutral or good witches and/or player characters.
Funny, that was never my impression of Selune, but different strokes I suppose. Some people seemed to love Bane while I found him to be so laughably stupid he was like the kobolds of evil-priesthoods.
I kind of feel the reverse, Greyhawk gods always seemed boring and dull to me, Realms gods seemed... a little too numerous honestly
This.
I was introduced to the Deities of Golarion by the acquaintance of Zon-Kuthon, and I found him to be like flavor x ∞ if compared to old dull Nerull, Bane, Cyric and others of similar role. Zon-Kuthon's is a truly interesting story, and it's not just his background that strikes the mind. After that, I enjoyed the full wind of rejuvenating flavor and vigor that the other Golarion Gods too brought with them; untied from many of the old recurring and boring cliches and yet nowhere near to becoming freaks due to a designer's quest for originality.
I would like to see a goddess who strives for the destruction of those that cause harm and suffering, and aid to those who need it. Killing innocents would never be allowed, but outright murder would be a valid tactic, as long as no innocents were directly harmed. But murder wouldn't have to be the only option, but it wouldnt be frowned on, and any laws or rules that get in the way of Good being done would be ignored. In fact, Laws would be viewed as often being the tool of suffering.
So, the goddess would have Trickery and Fire for sure. Those priests who focused on magical assassination for the greater good, in particular, would have created a need for the trickery stuff, even to hide from other good or law-abiding groups, gods, or people. I would want to include Destruction for single target strikes, Healing for bringing aid and comfort to the oppressed, Good and Chaos simply because all the aligned gods seem to have the alignment domains.
Of course, thats 6 domains, and I see all the gods have only 5. So I could see going for a Chaotic Neutral goddess, who is striving to push the world towards CG, but whose tactics render her CN. That would allow me to drop Good. Otherwise, the goddess could be CG, but not have the Healing domain ... too aggressive.
Tho of course I had wanted Fire and Healing to be in the same option list.
Thats the direction I'd want to take it. Or rather that's one idea. I'm sure there could be others. Maybe go with the name Vasani because it sounds cool. Tho a quick google search shows the name is an Indian name. That is strictly co-incidental, but she could be a Vudrani goddess. Or the name could be un-related.
Anyway, just one idea.
It sounds to me like you're describing Urd, from Oh, My Goddess, but lacking Belldandy's stabilizing influence.
A goddess that's trying to be good, but gets tripped up by her over-exuberance and massive temper.
I am not familiar with Oh My Goddess.
I dont view the character (my character) as temperamental though. Anti-establishment, but really more calculating and deliberate. Methodical in a way. But absolutely anti-establishment. Laws are a hindrance to the pursuit of good. But I dont see the character as wild or lacking in self-control. In fact, it probably takes quite a bit of personal self-control to know when its time to whip out the fireballs, and when its time to knock someone out, or avoid risking innocents, and to play that careful line of "when have I caused suffering while trying to alleviate it".
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Also, Desna may not be aloof, dreamy or distant, but she just didn't seem to have that "ranger / werewolf / moonmaiden / are you tough enough to not die alone outside at night on a mountain" vibe that I always felt Selune had. And certainly, she doesnt seem primal to me. Just my take.
BTW, what gods do Witches revere typically in Golarion? I guess their familiars get spells from sources that are perhaps more likely infernal or empyrean or some other non-upfront powers. But, really, what god would a non-evil witch, say a N, CN, or CG witch, follow?
Again, Desna just doesnt have that "eat mushrooms, strip naked, paint yourself up with warpaint like in the Conan movie, then run in and slaughter all the evil-doers to the last man and woman" that I'm quite looking for in my "wild, outdoors, night sky" kind of diety. Cayden seems too much of a city dweller type, at least in terms of the need to stay around civilization where people gather in establishments to drink and socialize kinda way. Just the wrong type. Gozreh is a maybe ... but a maybe at best. Doesnt scream Witch to me. Pharasma and Nethys? No way. Gorum, I could maybe see, except that Gorum strikes me as too much a man-at-arms and not a wild spirit god. Calistria maybe has the temperment but is a city gal. Lamashtu makes the most sense from the perspective of seeing witches as the enemy, but not for neutral or good witches and/or player characters.
Wait. Desna, the goddess who appears as a naked sylvan creature under the night sky, the one that holds back unspeakable things-from-beyond-the-stars and who fan theory holds may only appear humanoid as a courtesy isn't raw and natural enough for you? The same goddess worshiped by a fair number of the paint-yourself-in-warpaint-run-in-and-slaughter-people-to-prove-you-are-an- adult Shoanti?
I felt Selune was the two-dimensional hand-wavy one. AM ELF AM WILD AM WOLF-LOVING AM PRETTY AM MAKE MAGIC. In fact, most FR deities, even the quality ones, suffered from "graduated PC syndrome", where their constant personification made difficult to worship them in a multiple guises ... because you could actually meet them, talk to them and see what they were like. No mystery left. Just ask the boss and they'll get back to you eventually. Only rarely did gods seem to behave like forces of nature rather than soap-opera characters, always scheming against one another and wearing hats.
Your six listed domains are a grab-bag without much thematic consistency at the moment. It sounds more like you are building a god-level PC than a god or goddess that is defined by their nature as much as nature is defined by them. What would it even mean for a deity to have the Good and Destruction domains simultaneously? "Nature Destroys and Nature is Categorically Morally Good"? "Breaking people's stuff helps others"? Trickery and Good is also awkward, and Healing and Destruction within the purview of the same god may work for some Nature deities but almost certainly calls for a Neutral Alignment.
So let's build some thematic consistency. Here's what I would do. Two options.
Option one: Invent an Empyreal Lord of your own, some minion or ally of Sarenrae or another, a wild and forceful agent of good. Your character now owes allegiance to some apostasy of Sarenrae's church that pays homage and draws their miracles from this wild, raucous Empyreal Lord. It's simple, it works within canon of Golarion (if you care about that sort of thing) and it builds in its own drawbacks. You can find support in the Temple of Sarenrae, but very proper Sarenrae worshipers might find your devotion to a Chaotic Destroyer Angel disturbing and objectionable, since Sarenrae preaches redemption and mercy before violence. Gozreh worshippers may also be allies or foes, since your Empyreal Lord's trickery and destruction twists the natural world toward an agenda. Favor Azata over proper angels and don't stop to listen to Iomedae worshipers for anything.
Option two: weirdly, Dahak has almost all the domains you desire. Only Healing and Good are missing. Simple enough to just devise some aspect of Dahak that appears as a sylvan barbarian woman and fight to change the world.
Keg,
Looks like we couldn't disagree more. Though I do very much appreciate your response and the effort/time, etc.
Looking at the entry for Desna in the Faiths of Purity, which I bought tonight, I see a different picture. Maybe some supplement detailed some of her worshipers in a barbaric/wild/warlikc way, but she doesnt come across that way remotely in her write-up.
It says she is a carefree traveler, an optimist, is into dreams, luck, etc. (Definitely likes Long Walks on the Beach, or anywhere :)). Her adventures "follow their dreams", view the world as it could be, and they are said to not pick fights. Magic practitioners are said to favor casting spells that "tell your story." Clerics of Desna are supposed to foster artistic growth and interpret dreams. Direct conflict is mostly focused on Lamashtu and a few other extreme deities in some limited circumstances
Clerics are also supposed to travel and collect gossip. As a follower of Desna you want to "snatch the joy of life in every breath." Your symbol is a Butterfly. Children and parents pray to her to give them nice dreams.
I see the bit about fighting against the return of the ancient gods, but thats like 1 sentence in a bunch of stuff that looks like my 21-year old ballroom dance instructor's college lifestyle otherwise. And I suspect the fighting ancient gods (brief) mention is a reference to the Lovecraftian stuff that they probably felt people otherwise associated with the stars in a fantasy universe. So basically she is for stars and moons tee hee but "not in that evil pseudopods and tentacles way" I guess.
When telling fortunes, her clerics have to downplay the bad omens so as to not scare people, and then have to try to change it, because we wouldnt want anyone to get scared. Her traits involve artistic growth and the perform skill, and a bonus to fear saves, because her clerics are happy.
So, if someone wrote a supplement with her clerics and worshippers getting into warpaint and killing people, they didn't read her official entry where she is a liberal arts major doing overseas credits in the summer in Cancun, possibly while intoxicated. Because that's what I read. :) No need to lambast Selune, who I only even brought up because of some seemingly superficial similarity in their fondness for moonlight. :)
As for my six domains, I had a very specific thematic consistency: a lifter of the burden of suffering, be it through healing, or defeating those causing suffering, even if that means assassination. Good will exist, oppression will end, and it will happen now. :) If you just dont like it, then fine. That's cool. No worries.
Also, those domains wont make a god-level PC because the PC doesnt get all 6 domains. I can already get Fire and Healing, the two I would pick in order to satisfy both myself and my party members, by making a cleric of Sarenrae. So I wasnt attempting to make a god PC. That doesnt even make sense. I just happen to dislike Sarenrae's ethos and style.
As for Good + Destruction, notice that the destruction spells are largely single target. So in that sense, Destruction is a tool. In this case, a tool for destroying the foes of good. The domains themselves don't all have to be portfolios of the goddess. Just the most commonly used avenues of action. Though they can align with specific aspects, obviously.
As for Healing and Destruction being on the same deity that isnt an order/nature/primal god, I don't see a problem. Of course, I find the domains viewable as either a tool, or a portfolio, or both. Every single Good god for example has the Good domain, even the ones that dont promote good actively, but just happen to be good. And yet for all of them, the Good domain is provided as a tool for those clerics who wish to use it.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure that if we dig around, we can find some good deities with both healing and destruction as domains. Even if we cant find such an example, most sun deities have healing and sun. If you don't think their clerics don't point their "sun" magic at people that they oppose, and then ZAP those people ... I would say, think again. :)
Anyway, I already offered in my post that I could make the deity herself CN, or that I could drop Good or Healing domains, or both, so we are just chatting at this point. Friendly banter, I hope!
Otherwise, we simply disagree about how Domains can interact with one another. Probably a good thing we don't play in the same game. :)
Again, I appreciate the response and the time you took to post, and your thoughts, even if we disagree.
Oh and looking at your comment about Dahak, I just wanted to make it clear that any desire to have wilder, more interesting, nature/primal gods that are not evil is actually independent of my desire to have a Fire domain god. They just happened to get entangled in the same thread.
Another goddess I like who has Fire as a domain is Joramy, though she is a Greyhawk god. She even has roughly the same alignment as Sarenrae. But I actually like her personality/style, and dislike that of Sarenrae. So my objection based around the Fire Domain was more that there were only 2 gods in Golarion that had it, and I despise both. Of course, its been pointed out that there are others, but none of their temperments suit me much. A LG dwarf war god, and a machine golem goddess, maybe some other one.
It was from that point that my mention of wanting more wild/primal non-evil gods for non-evil players dovetailed into comments about wanting a wild fire domain god that was non-evil, which brought up Desna, which I didnt read as even slightly wild; perhaps situation-ally zealous against faiths that diametrically oppose, but otherwise pretty laid back / idealistic / baked out of her mind from what I gather. :)
And now we are back to now. :)
I'm torn between surprised and not surprised at all from the attack on your idea and the fact that you're not satisfied with the Golarion pantheon. After all, it's bound to happen that someone thinks you are "badwrong" if you aren't satisfied with Golarion. And actually, I agree with you on Joramy and Wee Jas (especially the latter), but I've been content with some of the Pathfinder deities as well.
Then again, I too find Desna kinda uninteresting (it's more of the clergy being boring in her case, though) save for her being one of the few with the guts to go up and stab Lamashtu's (or any other demon lord's) followers in the face. Anyway, I also love the idea of a non-evil assassin (after all, Ninjas get the assassinate ability, so why aren't ninjas also evil?) and the more "extreme" kind of good deity. Iomedae has the right picture (take the fight against evil to their doorstep) but she's a bit too "Paladin" to fit some of my character concepts at times. Then again, the emphasis on mercy and redemption that Sarenrae has makes me like her slightly more than I like Pelor, a reason why I converted my character Emilia to Golarion as well.
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Huitzilopotchli was associated with hummingbirds or butterflies. I have no problem with the butterfly.
Desna's writeup was one of the earliest ones in the Pathfinder setting. And disproportionately representative of the views held by her largest demographic of worshipers, southern Avistani and the caravan-dwelling Varisians (who I still argue cannot be culturally representative of all Varisians because there are cities and villages with Varisian inhabitants ... hrmph. I digress). We already have information about the Kellids worshiping Desna as a human woman riding an elk and a culture in the Mwangi Expanse worshiping a janiform Desna/Gozreh. Accepting the dominant southern Avistan Desna as the sole and accurate representation of Desna is akin to accepting only Catholic notions of Christianity and discounting Protestantism in all its forms as trivial. These gods are not limiting, I feel, because they may be worshiped in different ways by different people.
But *shrug*. As is your wont. I maintain that you and I are not looking at the gods the same way. [Don't worry: I maintain my argument in a friendly way. What follows is an approach to gaming and setting-craft. YMMV]
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A domain, for me, is not merely a field or subject in which the God is skilled or powerful enough that followers may draw spells. It is an embodiment of that god's nature, an expression of their world altering glory. Reconciling separate aspects of a god's nature is not a matter of methods and what 'they' do, but rather how different parts of their identity express themselves mystically and sometimes physically.
Destruction, as a domain, is about destroying things and reveling in ruin. It has the subdomains of Catastrophe and Hatred. It's ur-example in the setting is Rovagug the Rough Beast. I have trouble reconciling it with good deities unless their aim is to cleanse the world in righteous fury. Armageddon. After all, Good may destroy the foes of good just fine on its own; combining Destruction and Good marries two themes together, standing for both.
You are free to imagine a re-purposed domain, of course, akin to Pharasma's Death Domain. But I feel it is important to recall that FR gods were essentially 'people' that picked up or were assigned portfolios. Their associations were external, rather than internal. A god could be good because they felt like a good guy/gal, or evil because they felt like an evil guy/gal. And Greyhawk gods were, for the most part, a series of retcons that slowly turned placeholders into feuding not-quite families. Rather than saying "this is a god of goodness" the writers of that setting felt it was enough to say "this god is Good". (In fact, I never could understand why Joramy even had a Good alignment except by virtue of her vendetta with Erythnul which I guess could make her good?) They were people made into gods, rather than gods that mortals try to understand as people. I don't like my Golarion that way. It conflicts with the Robert Howard themes I value in my pulpy sword-and-sorcery RPGing.
Naturally, the ascended gods of Golarion are my least favorite gods of Golarion for this exact reason: their mortal natures are shining through, making them seem less like mythical figures and more like player characters that someone kept leveling well past level 20. But even still, the defining natures of Iomedae, Norgorber and Cayden Cailean have begun to overwhelm all else: Norgorber has fractured and dissembled until he has no face, Iomedae has become consumed by duty and righteousness, and Cayden has become the archetype of the irresponsible big damn hero. They can no longer change or be separated from their divine natures. I like this.
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Now, to be more constructive, what is it about Sarenrae that you dislike? I really do not see many temperaments between Joramy and Sarenrae apart from the obvious "fire" associations.
OT: Actually all these thing can be done with Serenae IMO. The gods are freee for interpretation and the books have presented only their common view. That doesn't say that there aren't various sects focused on various aspects of the god. Just take the Separatist cleric archetype and take the domain you need. You can also twist the image of the goddes more to your liking.
I forgot to mention that the Keleshite view on Sarenrae seems kinda close to how Joramy is seen...or at least closer to it than the traditional view on her that other cultures on Golarion have.
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Anyway, I just spent some time glancing at the pathfinder wiki. Here are the gods I like:
Calistria - revenge, lust, etc
Brigh - fire, machines, etc
Chaldira - halfling goddess of pluck and determination, or something
Urgathoa - gluttony, disease, etc.
Alseta - doorways, thresholds, years
Angradd - fire, strength
Besmara - pirate queen
Fandarra - stone giantess, birth/death, the earth
Hanspur - the water rat - rivers, etc
Naderi - suicide, drowning, romantic tragedy
Interesting choices! Very eclectic.
When it comes to the 'lesser' gods, everyone and their dog seems to dive straight for Milani, while someone as compelling as Alseta gets left holding the bouquet.
Alseta, Brigh, Sivanah and the elf-gods are my favorite 'lesser' gods.
I like some Golarion gods better than their counterparts in other settings (Desna over Selune, definitely, although I stick my hands over my ears when James says she isn't an Old One), and some other setting's gods better than Golarion's (Torm and Heironeous over Iomedae, Wee Jas over Kelemvore and Pharasma, etc.). It's kind of a wash.
I kinda prefer the Scarred Lands pantheon to most others, because it's so small, and each diety has to cover multiple territories. Corean, the LG god, covers the blacksmith-of-the-gods role, the god of knights and paladins, a god of war, etc. roles. Tanil, CG goddess of the hunt, archery and the wilds is also the goddess of music. With such a broad range of interests (and a much smaller number of gods overall), different clerics (or temples) of the same god can be more distinctive, as each clergy has their wicks in greater number of buckets.
Some of that preference was probably a knee-jerk reaction to the Realms, with it's ginormous pantheon, and multiple lesser pantheons (elvish, Mulhorandi, etc.).
...Desna over Selune, definitely, although I stick my hands over my ears when James says she isn't an Old One...
So in your eyes, Desna is an Old One, but one that's actually found reason not to look at mortals as mere flies? You sir, are awesome for breaking that mold. I only got so far as True Neutral when I thought of a similar concept. Also, I agree that Forgotten Realms had so many darn pantheons and deities that it started being a bit annoying...and this is coming from a guy like me who LOVES to read up on deities.
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...Desna over Selune, definitely, although I stick my hands over my ears when James says she isn't an Old One...So in your eyes, Desna is an Old One, but one that's actually found reason not to look at mortals as mere flies?
She's the goddess of dreams, and after untold aeons spinning her own dreams, she peeked out of her cocoon and tasted the dreams of the millions of mortal creatures that had swarmed over the worlds around her, and thought, 'Ooh, that's tasty, right there!'
But she's a fickle thing. A couple million years from now, she might blink and forget all about us. Or worse, develop a preference for *nightmares...*
Also, I agree that Forgotten Realms had so many darn pantheons and deities that it started being a bit annoying...and this is coming from a guy like me who LOVES to read up on deities.
Yeah, I'm as big a fan of Set as you'll find, but the Forgotten Realms did not need a pantheon of Egyptian (or elven, etc.) dieties, who, in most cases, pretty much did exactly what pre-existing dieties were doing anyway.
(It became particularly contradictory after the Time of Troubles established that Ao was handing out executive control of certain domains to only a single god, despite there being multiple gods with overlapping portfolios, based on race or region.)
Sometimes, especially in a setting that is meant to have a narrative, and not be a mish-mash kitchen-sink, less is more.
I'd say something about the virtues of brevity, at this point, but I'd be laughed off of the messageboard. :)
Nightmares are Lamashtu's domain, and I'd much prefer Desna as a kindly goddess despite her fickle nature. After all, she got VERY angry when Aolar messed with her followers, which seems unusual for such an alien being like her. Also, I actually got angry about Ao's little declaration, because it made it hard for me to incorporate my homebrew deities in Forgotten Realms. Then again, they work just fine on Golarion and Greyhawk, so all is more or less well anyway.
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Nightmares are Lamashtu's domain, and I'd much prefer Desna as a kindly goddess despite her fickle nature. After all, she got VERY angry when Aolar messed with her followers, which seems unusual for such an alien being like her.
Anything can be rationalized. Perhaps she regards her people as *hers,* and the nerve of some pissant demon lord poaching them get her bent out of sorts. Being at least a powerful goddess, if not something entirely more, she didn't even stop to think, 'Hey, this could be dangerous...' before sliding on down there and smacking that fool around.
Only afterwards, waist deep in the Abyss and demon-lords swarming all around her, did she think, 'Huh. This could get sticky...'
Fortunately, multiple other gods had her back!
She's also a goddess strongly tied to the concept of freedom, and implied to have a powerful dislike of captivity. The sort of thing that happened to Rovagug might seem more horrible to her than if he had simply been killed. The souls of her followers, which should have gone on to be with her, were trapped. It's possible that, since she has no otherplanar 'heaven,' that the souls of her followers actually become a part of her, and, for those souls to be trapped somewhere else might feel, to her, like a part of *herself* had been imprisoned down there in the Abyss.
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Keep talking, Set. I never tire of this sort of thing. Perhaps the followers of Desna are free, in death, to travel to Unkown-Kadath in the Dreamlands? And the covetous denizens of Leng are also sworn foes?
I also appreciate Lamashtu, and in my present campaign have emphasized the "Mother of Monsters" aspect of the evil goddess so I might draw upon some Greek mythology and send vengeful, horrible monsters to plague the lands of the player characters. The Desna-Lamashtu rivalry has given me, as DM, ample opportunities for establishing both Desna's benevolence and incomprehensibility.
I myself loved the number of Gods in FR. A good deal of them were real world gods or started that way at lest and for me most Greyhawk gods sucked and seemed bland. As for Golarion, I like the gods, I like Sarenrae she comes off as very Jihad Jesus to me. Also to the OP, Male Horned nature gods are not unusual in the lest, in fact they tended to be common.
I am also gonna agree with Keg on that your God seems more a grab bag of Domains that really do not fit more then a God. Based upon your description
I would like to see a goddess who strives for the destruction of those that cause harm and suffering, and aid to those who need it. Killing innocents would never be allowed, but outright murder would be a valid tactic, as long as no innocents were directly harmed. But murder wouldn't have to be the only option, but it wouldnt be frowned on, and any laws or rules that get in the way of Good being done would be ignored. In fact, Laws would be viewed as often being the tool of suffering.
She is not good, so can't have the good domain, I see nothing that calls for fire or destruction really. She seems a vengeance god. Based upon this alone I would say something like: Chaos,protection,Liberation and probably Tricky and community as well.
I just don't see fire, good or destruction there.
The way you start your post confuses me about it's actual tone, Keglu, though I can assume you're liking what Set is posting as much as I am. Also, I have to say I love your Hellknight Paladin concept. I agree that Desna vs. Lamasthu needs a bit more working out than it seems to get at times, if only because the latter seems ignorant about the former for some reason. Then again, she has been bothered by Pazuzu for an equal amount of time, and epic birdman was actually closer to killing her than Desna has ever been.
Also, Seeker, Ragathiel is an Empyreal Lord (he's a lawful good Empyreal Lord, to add) with the Good and Destruction domains. And just because the domain choices seem like a grab-bag to you doesn't mean it's automatically wrong, especially given there are/might be canon deities in other settings that have identical or at least similar designs. (People call me prejudiced and biased, yet I seem to be the most open-minded person around here...)
Yes, I know about Ragathiel. I never said good could not have destruction. I said that god wasn't good so could not have the good domain. I also said nothing there screamed destruction to me when other domains seem a better fit. I would give her death well before destruction, but eh that's just me.
My apologies then, I misread that as an attack aimed at the OP. Then again, you have a good point, though we can only know how he/she sees this once she/he posts his/her response. (Cheers for promoting gender equality...sorta?)
Nope, not an attack. Just an observation based upon what he posted as his reasoning behind the domains. Thing More about it I would go: Chaos, protection , liberation, tricky and death .
(Cheers for promoting gender equality...sorta?)
eh, I just use he. If the poster is female I use she if I know its a she.
Set,
I definitely dont view Desna as an Old One. She seems to stand in opposition to them. But to each his/her own. If you view her/it that way, more power to you. :)
SeekerOfShadowLight,
Sarenrae comes across as too Jihad / Crusader / god-bothering to me. Just up in peoples business too much.
Ad for my goddess idea, I definitely do not see her as a vengeance goddess. Revenge does not concern her. Liberation does not specifically concern her. Protection is right out, because she is all about removal of threats, and healing the wounded before moving on, but not in the least about bringing resolve to those under siege. If she can heal someone or sneak in somewhere and execute a tyrant or a monster or a necromancer and set them on fire or throw fireballs at a band of marauding pirates and their ship (assuming no innocents are on board) then she will. But no ceremony. Do what is required and move onto the next evil. If her tactics (burn, assassinate, heal) arent suited then move on. Community also wouldnt fit as a domain, as I view her as outcast for her tactics. Death wont work either ... She is dedicated to healing and life. Her tactic involves killing evil individuals, but probably had less of a body count than other good gods. Its all about choice targets.
But hey if you guys dont like my vision or view her as mis-designed, fair enough. I feel as if others' perceptions of other god tropes is causing people to latch on to various aspects and pull them apart and attach them to things I dont intend.
Keg,
I hear you about domains, but there are lots of gods who have more portfolios than domains or vice versa, so I dont limit my view of domains. They can be tools or fundamental attributes or both.
Anyway, the good (or good-promoting) secretive magical assassin of fire and healing may only work for me. There are all kinds of other ways to combine fire and healing.
Oh, and I am male, for those not wanting to use gender-neutral masculine by default, or for those simply interested in accuracy. :)
Btw, can I use a personal avatar or do I really have to select from that list?
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I would like to see a goddess who strives for the destruction of those that cause harm and suffering, and aid to those who need it. Killing innocents would never be allowed, but outright murder would be a valid tactic, as long as no innocents were directly harmed. But murder wouldn't have to be the only option, but it wouldnt be frowned on, and any laws or rules that get in the way of Good being done would be ignored. In fact, Laws would be viewed as often being the tool of suffering.
So, the goddess would have Trickery and Fire for sure. Those priests who focused on magical assassination for the greater good, in particular, would have created a need for the trickery stuff, even to hide from other good or law-abiding groups, gods, or people. I would want to include Destruction for single target strikes, Healing for bringing aid and comfort to the oppressed, Good and Chaos simply because all the aligned gods seem to have the alignment domains.
Of course, thats 6 domains, and I see all the gods have only 5. So I could see going for a Chaotic Neutral goddess, who is striving to push the world towards CG, but whose tactics render her CN. That would allow me to drop Good. Otherwise, the goddess could be CG, but not have the Healing domain ... too aggressive.
Tho of course I had wanted Fire and Healing to be in the same option list.
Thats the direction I'd want to take it. Or rather that's one idea. I'm sure there could be others. Maybe go with the name Vasani because it sounds cool. Tho a quick google search shows the name is an Indian name. That is strictly co-incidental, but she could be a Vudrani goddess. Or the name could be un-related.
Anyway, just one idea.
Take a look at the Separatist Cleric in Ultimate Magic. A good Trickery/Fire deity sounds like a Kellid splinter group worshipping Sarenrae, but changing out some of her Keleshite, forthright nature with good Kellid survivalist shock troop tactics.
In fact, if you choose Fire and Healing, you could still play a regular Sarenrae cleric, but simply state that you're a heretical worshipper. You've got your own interpretation of her teachings, and no, they don't match up with the main church's canon. But Sarenrae is still granting you power.
The main church would HATE that.
Individual Sarenraean clerics might have different interpretations of what this means. Perhaps some other deceptive demon is granting you your spells, and so you're a tool of some nefarious power that needs destroying. Perhaps Sarenrae is granting you power out of benevolence and mercy, and you need to simply be brought back into the fold. Perhaps this is the rebirth of the Nishanbur Schismatic School of Sarenrae, originally rising during the Age of Darkness. Its last adherents were exterminated and their reinterpretations of canon expunged back in 435. If you haven't heard of that before, that's okay, it's supposed not to have happened. No records of that time are left. Well, probably no records are left, but no one's cleared out the long-forgotten tomb of High Priest Melek-Azra in the Casmaron wilderness to be sure.
There are plenty of possibilities.
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Anyway, is there a chance any more demigods might be created? Maybe a wild chaotic good or chaotic neutral goddess of fire, healing, chaos, destruction :)
Pele would fit the bill here and is easily portable to Golarion
The was great artwork of her on the former Razor Coast site but alas that site is no longer up for the time being.
Ad for my goddess idea, I definitely do not see her as a vengeance goddess. Revenge does not concern her. Liberation does not specifically concern her. Protection is right out, because she is all about removal of threats, and healing the wounded before moving on, but not in the least about bringing resolve to those under siege. If she can heal someone or sneak in somewhere and execute a tyrant or a monster or a necromancer and set them on fire or throw fireballs at a band of marauding pirates and their ship (assuming no innocents are on board) then she will. But no ceremony. Do what is required and move onto the next evil. If her tactics (burn, assassinate, heal) arent suited then move on. Community also wouldnt fit as a domain, as I view her as outcast for her tactics. Death wont work either ... She is dedicated to healing and life. Her tactic involves killing evil individuals, but probably had less of a body count than other good gods. Its all about choice targets.
See I am still not seeing the fire connection at all. Shes about removing threats that is protection. Shes is seeming a bit disjointed to me honestly. Not an attack or anything but I am guessing you picked the domains and are trying to somehow justify why the goddess has them.
I can see healing if she is a healer, but I also see death, tricky and protection among her interests. Based upon your last post I would go : Healing, chaos, death, protection and trickery.
And here is why. You said she is all about healing, "taking out threats" and "protecting innocents" but does not give a flying frig about freedom or fairness or law and order. So she is good with killing by any means which is a big part of her interests and sees laws as a handy cap or weak. That to me means she is a death god with an area of interest in one kind of death and she is chaotic and no issues with dirty trick or lies to get at a target. She is also about protecting innocent people and healing.
You can agree or disagree but that is how it simply reads to me. I see nothing that is remotely good or about fire or destruction .
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I will not ever play a cleric of Sarenrae.
If the only way to ever get fire and healing in the setting is via an aspect of Sarenrae, and if the other fire gods are evil, or lawful dwarfs, or machines, then hey. I will just make some other character. Or if we ever run a Golarion game (and I hope our group will) then mayne we will move the elemental lords to neutral (instead of NE).