| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I've been considering making a character that would use one or two sawtooth sabres, and I've been a little confused on the contradictory rules for it. I posted this question over on the PFS section, but they suggested I post over here.
Basically, there seems to be (at least) two different rules for how the Sawtooth Sabre works:
Adventurer's Armory: The Sawtooth Sabre is a longsword, unless you have EWP: Sawtooth Sabre. If you do, then it is treated as a light weapon.
Inner Sea World Guide: The Sawtooth Sabre, if you are proficient, counts as a light weapon purely for the purposes of two-weapon fighting penalties. In all other respects, it is treated as a regular one-handed weapon and has stats like that of a longsword.
Usually, I'd assume that the latest printed rule applies - where this gets confusing is that the AA rules were written before the World Guide, but then reprinted (updated AA) after it, unless I have my chronology mixed up.
Going by what is simplest, I'd favour the ISWG ruling, because it opens less weird logic holes - such as, with the AA version you can get a higher damage bonus for wielding the sabre two-handed if you aren't trained in using one, but once you get the training, the weapon is light and no longer qualifies, meaning that for two-handed single-weapon fighting, getting training in how to use the weapon actually makes it less effective. Also, the AA version opens up odd cases like conditional Weapon Finesse (which the World Guide never allows it to be finessed, I believe) and the like.
In a home game, the group (and GM) can naturally decide which rules they prefer, but the reason I originally posted it in the PFS section was that it'd be nice to get an official ruling for PFS and other pickup games.
So... opinions?
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Note: I am arguing ROI, for the RAW I need to consult my books at home.
I think that the idea of the weapon is that it should be "finessable" if you have the exotic weapon proficiency in it.
From what I recall, in his first apparition it was a finessable weapon.
About the logic hole: you are never forced to use a feat. So you can:
- use the Sawtooth Sabre as a martial weapon and get the 2 handed use bonus
or
- use it as an exotic weapon and use finesse with it as you treat it as a light weapon.
Conditional finesse: for all melee weapons using Weapon Finesse is optional, not mandatory.
If for some reason my strength bonus has gone up (or my dexterity bonus has gone down) and I will get a better bonus switching to a more forceful stile of use for my rapier, nothing will prohibit that.
If it was just finessable, then it would just be an Aldori sword.
So... opinions?
James Jacobs (Creative Director): "Sawtooth sabres are detailed in the hardcover Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting; before this, they were detailed in the Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide. The Red Mantis assassins all use them... in fact, using 2 of them TWF style is their thing.
They're basically the "bastard sword" version of a longsword; a 1H weapon that deals 1d8 damage and has a threat range of 19–20 but that can be used as a light weapon if you have the Exotic Weapon Feat."
James Jacobs (Creative Director): "The main advantage of the sawtooth sabre as written is that, as a light weapon, you can wield one in your off hand with minimal penalty when fighting with two weapons."
James Jacobs (Creative Director): "the Sawtooth Sabre should be categorized as a light blade; that's how it's meant to be used, after all, and therefore it should be categorized as how it's meant to be used."
James Jacobs (Creative Director): "If you like how sawtooth sabres used to work—that the exotic weapon proficiency allows you to treat it as a light weapon... do it. Trust me, it won't hurt your game."
That last one seems to imply that the rules changed, so the newest sawtooth is the one that is 'correct' (rather than there being 2 different weapons with the same name) - which has sad implications for the scorpion whip.
"Description: A sawtooth sabre may be used as a Martial Weapon (in which case it functions as a longsword), but if you have the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre), you treat the weapon as if it were a light weapon for the purpose of two-weapon fighting—the sabre remains classified as a one-handed melee weapon for all other purposes"
So it 1d8 dam 19-20/x2 no matter what. but if you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre) you can use it in your off hand - where it counts as a light weapon - still does 1d8 dam, but with the twf feat you only get -2 to hit.
and what Grick said...
Sounds like most of the consensus (including the info quoted from JJ) is what I figured and how I'd personally run it - it's essentially a longsword that if you have the proficiency gets reduced penalties for TWF since they're designed for a two-weapon fighting style.
Also @Diego - what I meant by Conditional finesse was that the weapon with the old ruling is only finessable if you also have the exotic proficiency, but not when used as a martial weapon. Regardless, the point seems moot). Also, if the intent (RAI) of the weapon was that it was to be finessable, they'd probably just have labeled it as a finesse weapon as they have with some other non-light ones already.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback, and now I know that I can happily design the NPC the way I had in mind without worrying too much about rule mishaps.