Can I use lead blades in conjuction with a chakram by throwing them?
A Chakram can be used as a melee weapon at -1 penalty, and a chance to deal damage to you (or none if wearing heavy armor). I don't know what to think, since it can be used as a melee weapon and as a thrown ranged weapon.
I would like to think yes, since it can carry more force when thrown out, but I would like the insight of other people.
This is for a chakram heavy martial character I want to build up, Don't know whether to go ranger or fighter.
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Lead Blades
School transmutation; Level ranger 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target touch
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades. Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses one of your weapons to make an attack it deals damage as normal for its size.
I would like to think yes, since it can carry more force when thrown out, but I would like the insight of other people.
Logic also dictates that these heavier chakrams have a shorter range. But this is magic we're talking about, so... it's a GM call.
I would like to think yes, since it can carry more force when thrown out, but I would like the insight of other people.Logic also dictates that these heavier chakrams have a shorter range. But this is magic we're talking about, so... it's a GM call.
Why would you penalize someone that's already using a weak weapon like that?
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The whole "thrown, but also can be used melee" and "melee, but can be thrown" difference seems silly. This is even more silly when there is little to note their difference within the rules. Though honestly, there seems nothing noting these differences other than player opinion. I say, just let them be both, and be done with it.
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I could actually see this going either way. The way I had written this post initially I had actually taken the other side. However, under more careful consideration given that the "lead blades" spell applies to the *weapon* and not the manner in which it is used to attack then I think that it should work. The chakram is not the only weapon in the game that can do double duty as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon by virtue of having a range increment and being able to be thrown easily.
The alternative would be to try to use the "gravity bow" spell, and that as written only applies to bows and crossbows and imparts the damage increase to the ammunition, not the weapon itself.
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Very simple this spell is good for melee attacks only. Which means yes you can use it with the Chakram but only while using as a melee weapon, in which it takes a -1 penalty. It will not function for a ranged attack. As the spell says it is target touch, which precludes a ranged weapon, it is also range personal which also precludes a ranged use. Combine that with the description which states that it increases the momentum and density upon the weapon, as it strikes, also would mean it wont work when thrown.
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Very simple this spell is good for melee attacks only. Which means yes you can use it with the Chakram but only while using as a melee weapon, in which it takes a -1 penalty. It will not function for a ranged attack. As the spell says it is target touch, which precludes a ranged weapon, it is also range personal which also precludes a ranged use. Combine that with the description which states that it increases the momentum and density upon the weapon, as it strikes, also would mean it wont work when thrown.
100% agreement here.
I'm not certain why the Lead Blades spell can't be used on ranged weapons or at least their ammunition. It would save trouble.
If we're getting into semantics about melee vs. ranged and mixing that with trying to figure out how, to give an example, the metaphysics would be okay with the tip of a whip becoming heavier just before struck but not an arrow loosed from a bow just before it struck.... Apart from some handwavium about having a direct connection with the weapon, I can't think of a rational explanation, and even that falls flat when you get into using a spear as a melee weapon vs. using it as a thrown weapon, and people attaching vines to their spears so they can retrieve them or reel in their prey. And if you still try to use metaphysics to justify the game mechanics, at that point you have wizards pressing their noses against the fourth wall and making funny faces.
Simpler to just say the spell works regardless of weather a weapon is melee or ranged.
I'm not certain why the Lead Blades spell can't be used on ranged weapons or at least their ammunition. It would save trouble.
If we're getting into semantics about melee vs. ranged and mixing that with trying to figure out how, to give an example, the metaphysics would be okay with the tip of a whip becoming heavier just before struck but not an arrow loosed from a bow just before it struck.... Apart from some handwavium about having a direct connection with the weapon, I can't think of a rational explanation, and even that falls flat when you get into using a spear as a melee weapon vs. using it as a thrown weapon, and people attaching vines to their spears so they can retrieve them or reel in their prey. And if you still try to use metaphysics to justify the game mechanics, at that point you have wizards pressing their noses against the fourth wall and making funny faces.
Simpler to just say the spell works regardless of weather a weapon is melee or ranged.
I think that this type of bias against ranged weapons in the rules is usually done for balance concerns. If ranged weapons do not have significant drawbacks compared to melee there isn't ever any reason to use melee when the bow could be hitting from hundreds of feet away.
The other reason to have enlarge effects cancel outside of the characters possession is it prevents people from getting up to shenanigans where they pick things up and then put them down at double the size for 20 minutes.
Just to point out a few things before misinterpretations muddle things. Lead Blades does not change the size of the weapon. It "increases the momentum and density" of the weapon. So if it could be used on a thrown weapon, the spell effect would occur just before impact. So the range wouldn't be affected.
As for the spell affecting thrown weapons, there's no problem with this. The weapons on the caster gain the effect. If used for a melee strike, they benefit from the sudden weighting. If thrown, they aren't being a 'melee weapon' at the moment so no spell trigger.
I don't think weapons come with little labels that say "Melee" and "Ranged". It's all in how you use an object.
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Lead Blades for Melee, Gravity Bow for Ranged.
If you throw it, then you lose Lead Blades - imo.
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Lead blades works for a chakram if used as a melee weapon. So as long as you strike people with it, it'll work. When you throw it, it'll not give bonus damage. If you then pick it up and melee with it some more (within duration) then it'll do bonus damage again.
It is simple really.
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It's not a hole...the spell is cast upon the user not the weapon. When the user swings to hit someone the weapon gains density, increasing the damage. Basically you are the "Mercurial" part of a mercurial-type weapon effect. I see this magic as flowing through your body into the weapon, going into the blade exactly at impact. You can't do that at range because you must be touching the weapon at impact.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It's not a hole...the spell is cast upon the user not the weapon. When the user swings to hit someone the weapon gains density, increasing the damage. Basically you are the "Mercurial" part of a mercurial-type weapon effect. I see this magic as flowing through your body into the weapon, going into the blade exactly at impact. You can't do that at range because you must be touching the weapon at impact.
It is a hole.
There is a spell for enhancing damage on melee weapons.
There is a nearly identical spell for enhancing damage on BOWs.
Almost all weapons are covered save thrown weapons (and slings apparently).... thus a hole.
It is possible that the designer and developer(s) omitted it deliberately because they thought thrown weapons are overpowered or crazy awesome in their awe inspiring-ness, but I find that unlikely. Thus I suggest it's an oversight, they weren't included most likely because it's a far less commonly used option.
I can stab people with my arrows. Does that mean I can cast lead blades on my arrows and shoot people for EVEN MORE DAMAGE? <-- Rhetorical
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Lead blades states that they gain density "just as they strike the foe". This is why characters aren't instantly loaded down as soon as they cast it, which would be very funny!
Since the spell is cast on the person, I would GM rule that there needs to be a physical connection between the caster and the Melee weapon at this time of increasing density "just as it strikes". Since this is not the case, no lead blades on thrown weapons.
High strength person throwing chakrams is pretty decent anyway... ;)
Lead blades states that they gain density "just as they strike the foe". This is why characters aren't instantly loaded down as soon as they cast it, which would be very funny!
Since the spell is cast on the person, I would GM rule that there needs to be a physical connection between the caster and the Melee weapon at this time of increasing density "just as it strikes". Since this is not the case, no lead blades on thrown weapons.High strength person throwing chakrams is pretty decent anyway... ;)
This is how I'd rule it, although I don't know how this explanation works with the fact you can't pick up a new weapon and have the spell enhance it too.
All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are.
This tells me that you do a process like this:
-are you carrying weapons
-are any of them melee
-their damage is increased
There is a single built in exception: other people can't benefit from the spell.
There are other spells, like Holy Sword, where if it leaves your hand, 1 round later, it is cancelled. With Lead Blades though, you can cast the spell, put down your sword, pick it up later and still gain the bonus if the duration hasn't expired. If you pick up a sword that wasn't on you when you cast the spell though, it will not benefit. The sword you had though, continues to have the bonus, though it only applies to you.
RAW, I don't think it applies to thrown weapons.
If I were the DM though, I would allow the player to choose when memorizing the spell, melee or thrown weapons, essentially allowing them to have a thrown weapon version of gravity bow.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So what applies to thrown weapons? Lead Blades, or Gravity Bow? Does nothing effect them in this way? What happens to weapons that are both?
I guess it depends on how much of a slave you are to a literal reading of the book.
RAW: Neither spell affects throwing weapons (or slings). I don't think there are any weapons that are affected by both.
Reasonable: Thrown weapons work with this
Alternate: Allow the player to pen a spell that affects only thrown weapons.
One of these two spells should effect thrown weapons. Trouble is, which one?*should* is a slippery word. There are a lot of should things in the game. For example, there *should* be a many shot equivalent for thrown weapons but there isn't.
Yeah love how the bow ends up winning out over any other ranged style due to both needing to many feats to keep up and not having key feats.
I would love to make a thrower but cost in feats and gold to keep up with the resident archer makes it pointless to even think about.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I don't think spells have to be completionist. That just feels like sloppy design.
I don't think they need to either, but if a player wants/ needs a spell there is no reason you can't make an existing one work for them. Particularly a no-brainer change like this.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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One of these two spells should effect thrown weapons. Trouble is, which one?*should* is a slippery word. There are a lot of should things in the game. For example, there *should* be a many shot equivalent for thrown weapons but there isn't.Yeah love how the bow ends up winning out over any other ranged style due to both needing to many feats to keep up and not having key feats.
I would love to make a thrower but cost in feats and gold to keep up with the resident archer makes it pointless to even think about.
To some extent I *get* that the bow is the best ranged weapon, it generally is better than most (non-gun) ranged weapons. I just think it would be nice if some of the others were better in some ways than the bow. For example, thrown knives should be better at close range and you should be able to throw then as fast as, or faster than an archer can shoot a bow. Obviously not the case in game.
In game there is a sort of tail-wags-dog effect. People play archers because they are the best ranged weapons, designers write feats/ spells because players want them for their archer characters, those feats make the bow even more appealing luring more players...
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You can use two-weapon fighting with thrown weapons. With the Quick Draw Feat and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting you hit iterative +3 attacks, Vs the bowman's iterative +2 with Rapid Shot and Manyshot. You're investing in more Feats for the privilage, of course, but those Feats are generally applicable to melee weapons as well, making you a more versatile combatant.
Thrown weapons also benefit from your Strength bonus without the need to keep buying them anew. That helps with both purchasing magic weapons, and with benefitting from temporary Strength boosts (and, on the flip side, not being completely nerfed by Strength draining effects).
Thrown weapons have their advantages.
I don't think weapons come with little labels that say "Melee" and "Ranged".Damn it, my books must be misprinted then. They have categories that say "Light Melee Weapons", "One-Handed Melee Weapons" and "Two-Handed Melee Weapons".
Can't Paizo do anything right? These books aren't even the first printing. Nothing about it in the errata. Maybe I can get my money back?
Very well then. You can never again throw a dagger, or any of the melee weapons that have a range. I don't see them in the 'Ranged Weapons' section, so by your logic they can't ever be used ranged.
You can use two-weapon fighting with thrown weapons. With the Quick Draw Feat and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting you hit iterative +3 attacks, Vs the bowman's iterative +2 with Rapid Shot and Manyshot. You're investing in more Feats for the privilage, of course, but those Feats are generally applicable to melee weapons as well, making you a more versatile combatant.
Thrown weapons also benefit from your Strength bonus without the need to keep buying them anew. That helps with both purchasing magic weapons, and with benefitting from temporary Strength boosts (and, on the flip side, not being completely nerfed by Strength draining effects).
Thrown weapons have their advantages.
You can Rapid Shot thrown weapons too, which stacks (both in bonuses and penalties) with TWF. You just can't Manyshot them.
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You can Rapid Shot thrown weapons too, which stacks (both in bonuses and penalties) with TWF. You just can't Manyshot them.You can use two-weapon fighting with thrown weapons. With the Quick Draw Feat and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting you hit iterative +3 attacks, Vs the bowman's iterative +2 with Rapid Shot and Manyshot. You're investing in more Feats for the privilage, of course, but those Feats are generally applicable to melee weapons as well, making you a more versatile combatant.
Thrown weapons also benefit from your Strength bonus without the need to keep buying them anew. That helps with both purchasing magic weapons, and with benefitting from temporary Strength boosts (and, on the flip side, not being completely nerfed by Strength draining effects).
Thrown weapons have their advantages.
Rapid shot + Haste + TWF tree + fast bombs, is part of what makes an alchemist a fun bomb chucking lunatic.
Alright, it feels like one of these was intended to effect thrown weapons. I am just not sure which one.
If I were GM'ing for this character, I would allow them to pick up a spell (for free or cheap) that affect thrown weapons. Call it Giant's Throw or something.
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Lead Blades
School transmutation; Level ranger 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target touch
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades. Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses one of your weapons to make an attack it deals damage as normal for its size.
Funny how it doesn't mention that they must be used in melee, just that it only affects melee weapons, since melee weapons can be thrown (whether they have a range increment or not).
I can't believe I found an useful loophole! My inner lawful evil self is grinning in happiness!