I was looking over the Skirmisher Ranger today (Archetype in the APG). If you don't know the archetype, the basis is that instead of spells, a skirmisher gains access to a limited number of "Hunter's Tricks" that grant him bonuses a limited number of times per day (drawing off a ki-esque pool) starting at 5th level.
The thing I'm questioning is...why 5th level? Why not 4th, when you would normally get spells, and then every 2 levels after that? Well, looking at the table, I can see that it evens out the normal progression of abilities (preventing the class from getting up to 3 abilities on even levels).
Would it be so wrong to grant an extra trick at 4th level, to make up for the loss of spells (making the progression similar to a fighter, in that it gains one at 4th, 5th, and then every 2 after)?
Just wondering, since I'm contemplating making the skirmisher the basic ranger in my homebrew rules, and calling the spelled ranger a "mystic ranger" archetype or something.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
I think it's intended to make dipping a bit tougher...
Many tricks aren't limited per day usage, just by action economy,
so that is more powerful than 1st level Ranger spells with few slots/day.
You only gain spells at 4th level if your wisdom grants bonus spells. I bet the thinking here is that skirmishing rangers are not really giving up spells until 5th level when they are actually granted spells without a bonus.
I think that's exactly the reasoning.
that makes alot of sense too, esp. since none of the tricks depend on WIS really...
I think it's intended to make dipping a bit tougher...
Many tricks aren't limited per day usage, just by action economy,
so that is more powerful than 1st level Ranger spells with few slots/day.
He can only use a number of tricks per day equal to 1/2 his level + his wisdom modifier. All tricks draw from this pool. The fact that they have differing action economies is just a product of the tricks themselves.
You only gain spells at 4th level if your wisdom grants bonus spells. I bet the thinking here is that skirmishing rangers are not really giving up spells until 5th level when they are actually granted spells without a bonus.
This does make sense. I'll definitely take it into consideration.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
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Of course a Skirmish Ranger is also giving up access to Ranger Scrolls and Wands, which is a big sacrifice to a player who likes the extra versatility.
The archetype is for those who want a "divine magic"-less ranger. I honestly see that sort of statement as irrelevant.
Of course a Skirmish Ranger is also giving up access to Ranger Scrolls and Wands, which is a big sacrifice to a player who likes the extra versatility.The archetype is for those who want a "divine magic"-less ranger. I honestly see that sort of statement as irrelevant.I don't. You shouldn't be penalized for wanting a different style. That scroll and wand access certainly should be taken into consideration in regards to what the Archtype gives.
I'm not saying it does or does not meet the sacrifice (I haven't examined it thoroughly enough yet) but that there is a pretty big sacrifice that needs to be met.
I wouldn't call it a big sacrifice. At worst, regardless of how high your Wisdom is without the archetype, you're losing out on a single 1st level spell at level 4.
a lot of the ranger scrolls/wands are better than the darn skirmisher tricks.
sorry, but i like my wand of instant enemy, thank you.
Edit; Didn't realize that instant enemy was a 3rd level spell when it should have been 1st.
No...no it should not.
There's already hunter's howl for that.
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Of course a Skirmish Ranger is also giving up access to Ranger Scrolls and Wands, which is a big sacrifice to a player who likes the extra versatility.The archetype is for those who want a "divine magic"-less ranger. I honestly see that sort of statement as irrelevant.I don't. You shouldn't be penalized for wanting a different style. That scroll and wand access certainly should be taken into consideration in regards to what the Archtype gives.
I'm not saying it does or does not meet the sacrifice (I haven't examined it thoroughly enough yet) but that there is a pretty big sacrifice that needs to be met.
Maybe give the Skirmisher UMD as a class skill?
I really don't understand this. This is an archetype to give up magic, and people are complaining that they...give up magic!
Archetypes were never meant to be 100% equal power-wise with the base classes.
My solution would probably be to give the first trick at 3rd level (keep in mind wands and scrolls really open up about this level in terms of price) and one more every two levels thereafter. In addition, I'd give him trick uses per day equal to Ranger level + Wisdom mod.
I think you are either undervaluing the Hunter's Tricks or overvaluing the Ranger's spells. I mean, I love my wands of Lead Blades and Delay Poison too. But Skirmisher tricks are quite strong, with lots of free attacks, no-save debuff, and maneuvering options. If you are in a situation where someone else can use wands for you (the good rangers spells tend to be on quite few lists), then the extra martial prowess will even out.
Basically doubling the number of uses a day might actually push it into being "too strong." With so many different action types, there is the potential for a pretty severe nova. Lets see how a BBEG feels when every strike brings a retaliation that also trips and entangles, and can be kept up round after round.
I'm on-board with giving it an additional trick at 3rd/4th level, but I'm not sure that the pool should be increased to Ranger Level + Wisdom. I'd have to playtest to see how that would affect the class.
The loss of spells (and, by proxy, scrolls and wands without a high UMD) is a big issue, and I'm one of those folks who doesn't agree that the tricks really even out in power. Especially when it's considered that the ranger is normally a prepared divine caster, meaning that he has access to all of his spells when preparing for the day, and can pick and choose as he likes, whereas he has a set number of Hunter's Tricks that he can use, and he can't change them out. Ever. Regardless of whether they can give him extra attacks or not, he doesn't have many to choose from.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
Anyone else disappointed with the Skirmisher? It gives up spells to gains a series of special abilities he can use a number of times per day based on his level and a mental stat... so you just got spells by another name.