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I'm looking for any suggestions on how to boost the grapple CMB for a Strangler rogue build. This is what I have so far:
- Improved Grapple feat chain
- Weapon Focus (grapple)
- high Str
- enhancement bonus on gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, brass knuckles, etc. (Does this work? I'm not sure if it applies to grapples.)
enhancement bonus on gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, brass knuckles, etc. (Does this work? I'm not sure if it applies to grapples
I don't believe this works; you don't grab someone by hitting them with a pair of knuckle dusters.
Other boosts are from getting the Grab ability (via Polymorph or other magic), Greater Grapple feat, Co-ordinated Maneuvers teamwork feat and generic attack enhancers (e.g. flanking, higher ground, Bless, Inspire Courage, etc.).
Enhancement bonuses do not work.
As above the best way to boost grapple are situational and various stacking bonuses to strength and attack rolls.
Enlarge person is borderline cheesy. You turn the usual - 1 to attack to + 1 CMB for size as well as a size bonus to strength that stacks with bulls grace or a strength belt. All that plus reach for a penalty to AC that isn't going to matter unless graplee's friends are beating on you. Potions are cheap and convert the usual full round casting time to a standard.
Now pair that with a bard. Inspire courage, heroism, gallant inspiration.
Or an alchemist with the discovery that allows others to drink extracts ... true strike.
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For future reference on the enhancement bonus/combat maneuvers thing:
Disarm, Sunder and Trip are inherently weapon-based - you use your weapon to deliver these maneuvers and apply any related bonuses to the attempt.
If your weapon has the "trip" special quality, you can also use it to deliver drag and reposition maneuvers, enabling the application of enhancement bonuses and the like.
In any other case, a maneuver is performed without employing any weapon at all and therefore does not gain any weapon-specific bonuses.
Now then, for your idea:
If you don't mind being a worshipper of Sarenrae, consider a dip into the Dawnflower Dervish bard archetype, from the Inner Sea World Guide (or possibly Inner Sea Magic, I'm not sure). Instead of the usual party-buffing performances that you start with a standard action, you self-buff with a "battle dance" that costs only a move action to start (much like the similar Dervish Dancer archetype). But unlike a Dervish Dancer, a Dawnflower Dervish's Inspire Courage battle dance grants double the bonus - yes, that's +2 from a one-level dip. Also you get Dervish Dance as a bonus feat, but you might not care about that.
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- yes, that's +2 from a one-level dip.+2 when you dance, at the expense of -1 to your BAB? I'm not sure that is a useful trade, unless you have other reasons to delve into the Dawnflower dip.
Hey, that's still a net +1, and a +2 damage to your maintain-grapple-auto-damage thing is nice. And when grappling isn't viable, the attack bonus and extra damage is still useful.
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Hey, that's still a net +1, and a +2 damage to your maintain-grapple-auto-damage thing is nice. And when grappling isn't viable, the attack bonus and extra damage is still useful.- yes, that's +2 from a one-level dip.+2 when you dance, at the expense of -1 to your BAB? I'm not sure that is a useful trade, unless you have other reasons to delve into the Dawnflower dip.
Yeah, your "dance" will be cool for 4+CHA rounds per day, but the rest of the time you are going to be asking yourself "why did I dip into bard and give up my BAB"?
The explicit existence of Weapon Focus: Grapple AND WF: UAS is in line with UAS not delivering Grapple because if that were the case why would you need 'weapon' focus in something that is merely a special effect delivered by UAS? (same reason why there isn't weapon focus trip or sunder, those are delivered by some weapon that you can take wpn focus in itself). 3.5 grapple used to invoke UAS for part of Grapple but PRPG no longer does. IMHO, amulet of might fist and similar effects should also affect grapple and probably non weapon bull rush, etc, but per RAW they don't... Those could also really be in a Fighter Weapon Training group but again they aren't per RAw.
Still, I'm not sure what you're supposed to do (RAI/RAW) if you have Greater Whip Mastery and can Grapple with a whip, and have both Weapon Focus Grapple and Weapon Focus Whip.... Mancatcher is another case, with the weapon doing a touch track first before the grapple check, and I don't know how you would handle all the bonuses there either....
The explicit existence of Weapon Focus: Grapple AND WF: UAS is in line with UAS not delivering Grapple because if that were the case why would you need 'weapon' focus in something that is merely a special effect delivered by UAS? (same reason why there isn't weapon focus trip or sunder, those are delivered by some weapon that you can take wpn focus in itself). 3.5 grapple used to invoke UAS for part of Grapple but PRPG no longer does. IMHO, amulet of might fist and similar effects should also affect grapple and probably non weapon bull rush, etc, but per RAW they don't... Those could also really be in a Fighter Weapon Training group but again they aren't per RAw.
Your contrast to 3.5 does not hold up. The language for weapon focus uas/grapple exists there as well. The rules for dealing damage are functionally very similar although the language has been streamlined slightly and the action required to use grapple changed to a standard. Grapple was invoked by a melee touch attack not an unarmed strike.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver,
make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your
normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have
on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These
bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to
perform the maneuver.
unarmed strikes, weapons, and natural weapons, very clearly are applicable to damage with grapple so I don't see what the argument could be that they should be excluded from the hit side of the action. The only possible argument I can think of is that the book fails to define what type of action grapple actually is. If you take that to mean that grapple is fundamentally not the an attack then it would be ok to ignore the above quoted rule. But in that case weapon focus: grapple could not exist.
But in that case weapon focus: grapple could not exist.
Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Unfortunately it is there in the book.
I'll have to make a change to my Barb2 Fighter5 Dwarf who has Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) for the purposes of Grappling.
EDIT: I guess the Amulet of Mighty Fists is redundant for my Dwarf too.
It does remind me, however, that there is a bonus on grapple to a stunned opponent, IIRC.
And do remember that the CMD is based on BAB, so a 3/4 class like rogue is not the best way to go. I chose Barbarian as the first two levels for the Str boost when raging, and the Animal Fury rage power - successful bit grants a +2 on grapple.
I then chose Fighter for the feats and the BAB progression.
And, something else I've remembered, though Grapple should count in the Fighter's Close group, it isn't listed so probably doesn't. This and the Unarmed Strike bonuses counting toward grapple may be permitted by the GM, but don't seem to be RAW.
I'd suggest a bit of multiclass. preferably Tetori Monk, Brutal Pugilist Barbarian, or Lore Warden Fighter. The latter two are grapplers, while Lore Warden is generally for all CMBs.
Orcs and Half Orcs also have a teamwork feat called Brutal Grappler.
I'm also wondering why you decided on Rogue. It just seems weird to me as they aren't designed to grapple. If you want sneak attack damage on pinned enemies, why not try ninja (more stealth+ki pool) or a ragechemist vivisectionist alchemist (strength mutagens and formulae)
EDIT: Also note that it takes 3 rounds to sneak attack via grappling. Grapple>Pin>Attack. If you really want to go through with this, I'd suggest have a Wizard cast time-related spells to benefit you.
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I was looking at Tetori and Maneuver Master today and I'm not sure which is actually better for a grappler. Tetori gets some cool class features, but the Maneuver Master can use Flurry Of Maneuvers to Grapple as part of a full attack maneuver. If you can swing the feats for it, you could potentially Trip your enemy, grapple him AND hit him with an unarmed strike or two -- all in the same turn. Combining Maneuver Master with Lore Warden sounds like a worthwhile option, too.
Here's a similar build that I put together for tripping (rather than grappling), with Lore Warden (LW) and Master of Many Styles (MoMS):
Starting Stats: S:18 D:14 C:14 INT:13 W:11 C:7
1) LW1 - EWP: Fauchard (Half-Elf), Toughness, Weapon Focus
2) LW 2 - Combat Expertise (LW bonus), Improved Trip
3) MoMS1 - Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Fuse Styles, Dragon Style, Tiger Style
4) LW3 - +2 to CMB/CMD
5) MoMS2 - Tiger Pounce, Power Attack; Evasion
6) LW4 - Combat Reflexes
7) LW5 - Greater Trip; Weapon Training +1/+1
8) LW6 - Fury's Fall
9) LW7 - Improved Crit (Fauchard); +4 to CMB/CMD
10) LW8 Greater Weapon Focus: Fauchard
11) LW9 FEAT?; Weapon Training +2/+2
With pretty reasonable gear, this tripping build is at +34 CMB (for trips) at level 9, and doing very solid damage (Tiger Pounce w/ Power Attack), wiht one great weakness: very low AC.
Stuff
Hmm... can styles be used under grapple?
I'd recommend barbarian/fighter. The whole grapple feat tree coupled with high strength. Throw in feats like close-quarters fighting, scorpion's grasp, earth's embrace and defensive combat trainng. Then you have a character who is not only good at grappling but also deadly at preventing himself from being grappled. I'd warn you though, going combat manoeuvers is not really worth it. Even with all of the above, you'd be trying to apply a strangle hold on a creature who has incredibly high cmd for the appropriate character level. Its a problem with the system because although they are now simpler in the sense of cmd vs cmb, the ease of locking in a combat manoeuver is now so much more difficult.
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CMB:
* CMB:Amulet of Mighty Fists (with an enhancement bonus such a Furious if you're a barbarian)
* Pale Green Ioun Stone (cracked. +1 attack)
* Agile Maneuvers (if your DEX is higher than your STR).
CMD:
* be a race/class combination with the option to raise it rather than HP or skills.
* be a DEX advancer with Agile Maneuvers.
* Dodge, deflection and force-effect armor bonuses.
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I'm without my books right now, but I believe the garrote from the Adventurer's Armory is a weapon with the grapple quality (or, at least, specifically used for grappling) and also offers other options for grappling as well. So an enchanted garrote would seem like an interesting option (assuming, of course, I'm recalling the thing correctly...).
I'd suggest a bit of multiclass. preferably Tetori Monk, Brutal Pugilist Barbarian, or Lore Warden Fighter. The latter two are grapplers, while Lore Warden is generally for all CMBs.
Orcs and Half Orcs also have a teamwork feat called Brutal Grappler.
I'm also wondering why you decided on Rogue. It just seems weird to me as they aren't designed to grapple. If you want sneak attack damage on pinned enemies, why not try ninja (more stealth+ki pool) or a ragechemist vivisectionist alchemist (strength mutagens and formulae)
EDIT: Also note that it takes 3 rounds to sneak attack via grappling. Grapple>Pin>Attack. If you really want to go through with this, I'd suggest have a Wizard cast time-related spells to benefit you.
I'm not multiclassing into anything that's not primary BAB because dips would impact an already 3/4 BAB progression. I'm also hesitant to dip into anything unless I'm getting an immediately huge benefit to cover my loss of SA progression, rogue talents and skills. The rogue talents in particular are granting quick access to grapple feats (including Snapping Turtle Style and Clutch).
I'm not losing too much BAB from being a pure rogue through the majority of playability, because it's a PFS character design.
As for requiring three rounds to SA with grapple, you're not entirely correct. Strangler feat,apply SA damage as a swift action whenever you successfully maintain a grapple. At 3rd level, the rogue is applying SA damage as a swift action on the second grapple round. When he picks up Greater Grapple, he's potentially doing it in round one.
CMB:
* CMB:Amulet of Mighty Fists (with an enhancement bonus such a Furious if you're a barbarian)
* Pale Green Ioun Stone (cracked. +1 attack)
* Agile Maneuvers (if your DEX is higher than your STR).CMD:
* be a race/class combination with the option to raise it rather than HP or skills.
* be a DEX advancer with Agile Maneuvers.
* Dodge, deflection and force-effect armor bonuses.
Good call on the cracked ioun stone, thanks. 4,000gp for +1 competence is doable at an early level.
You got me looking in SoS too, which let me spot the dusty rose prism's wayfinder synergy. For 5,250gp I can pick up the stone and wayfinder to get a +2 insight bonus to CMB/CMD.
Where are you seeing the ability to add force armor effects to CMD? That'd be awesome if you could, but it's not listing it in the CMD rules of the prd.
Stuff
Monks= 3/4 BAB, same as Rogue
Barbarians and Fighters= Full BAB
StuffMonks= 3/4 BAB, same as Rogue
Barbarians and Fighters= Full BAB
You asked why I decided on rogue, I explained; it didn't really warrant some snarky response.