So what ranged build (presumably archer) has the best chance of High hit rate, damage output, and general awesomeness?
RAW? Sohei archer. Weapon training, flurry of blows, manyshot, and rapidshot.
RAI? I steadfastly maintain bard archer.
RAW? Sohei archer. Weapon training, flurry of blows, manyshot, and rapidshot.
RAI? I steadfastly maintain bard archer.
Can you elaborate on what makes the RAI? RAW difference?
Can you elaborate on what makes the RAI? RAW difference?RAW? Sohei archer. Weapon training, flurry of blows, manyshot, and rapidshot.
RAI? I steadfastly maintain bard archer.
Well Zen archer explicitly states that you cannot Rapid Shot/Manyshot with his flurry. Sohei however lacks this language but can flurry with a bow. Therefore by raw it can. However considering this is an inconsistency in how monks have worked up until now many consider it RAI that they don't work this way.
And cheapy's insane. Zen Archer is archer of the year all years.
So Zen Archer all the way?
If you don't want to do much else other than full-attack all the time, I suppose.
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I still like my Urban Barbarian Invulnerable Rager Barbarian Lame Oracle Archer Fighter.
The entire purpose is to be able to deliver a spell sunder through a bow, which you can do at 10th. Not sure if it wins on damage, but...
Come on. You can break a prismatic sphere with an arrow.
Compared to an archer fighter, I can see how they could be more versatile. Compared to any sort of 6+ spell level caster archer though, they are left behind in the dust.
at cursory glance a fighter archer/Zen archer looks like a good combo. Thoughts?
How about a halfling sniper rogue with appropriate racial traits to reduce the stealth check for sniping and at least one level of shadow dancer for HIPS?
Ranged rogues don't work. It's too hard to get sneak attack at range, even with HiPS.
And then you're relegated to only one attack per round, so it better hit.
Compared to an archer fighter, I can see how they could be more versatile. Compared to any sort of 6+ spell level caster archer though, they are left behind in the dust.But at that point, sice you seem to be focusing on spells, aren't you playing a caster who can shoot a bow as opposed to an archer?
No. Archery is your combat style. You're an archer.
You also happen to be able to bend reality to better suit you.
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For all levels, A ranger, generally speaking, is going to be better. Both get the most important unique advantage (Improved Precuse @ 6), but the Ranger also gets full BAB during surprise rounds or while moving; and gets an animal companion (that, with boon companion, is on level). The latter is not an archery advantage, but bringing a solid tank into the game for free ups your damage potential. This is on top of a wide variety of skills and the favored enemy (think undead and humans early.... especially since it affects your Sense Motive skill).
At 11 monk starts to do more attacks than rangers, but rangers get instant enemy... essentially making the ranger able to add +6 to ANY attack (hit and damage). This far outweighs the monk.
So overall, I think the monk has no chance here (unless you did GMs that allow that Sohei hack... and Soheis have a problem of sucking the first 5 levels anyway). Also, Soheis can't get improved precise till 15ish, so for those who have played archers, this equates to -4 to hit for many, many shots (over half).
So a halfling ranger mounted on his war lion (with appoporiate moutned archer feats) is going to PWN some serious face?
Luring Cavalier has got to be king for burst damage.
Luring Cavalier has got to be king for burst damage.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh not compared to a paladin. This is of course unless I'm reading it wrong and order abilities do modifiy far challenge in which case it depends on what order you are but since most can only happen in melee anyway I don't think this is the case.
It's easier to stop a pally from smiting then a cavalier from challenging. But you're right, nothing outdamages a litanty of vengence smite on an evil outsider.
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For the Halfling, yes Pally is the way to go. While I would eventually trade 1 to hit for 2 damage (payoff of small size archer), it certainly isn't true at lower levels, so if it is a typical campaign starting @ 1 I'd avoid Halfling if maximizing.
You can rarely go wrong with Human, archers are feat-starved (especially now), and you want to get fully online quickly (humans can have PB-precise-rapid by 2, deadly aim @3 instead of 9). This gives you more strength to the build. For similar reasons I dislike pally archers (remember evil outside is my 3rd favorite enemy, so I don't have to instant enemy them). Just more flexibility and online more of the time; though Vengence-archers are insane in the right campaign (especially halflings). Cavaliers are not even in this game, largely because there is no way to up challenges like Oath of Vengence ups smites.
It's easier to stop a pally from smiting then a cavalier from challenging. But you're right, nothing outdamages a litanty of vengence smite on an evil outsider.
I believe you mean Litany of Righteousness.
For all levels, A ranger, generally speaking, is going to be better. Both get the most important unique advantage (Improved Precuse @ 6), but the Ranger also gets full BAB during surprise rounds or while moving; and gets an animal companion (that, with boon companion, is on level). The latter is not an archery advantage, but bringing a solid tank into the game for free ups your damage potential. This is on top of a wide variety of skills and the favored enemy (think undead and humans early.... especially since it affects your Sense Motive skill).
I would disagree that a ranger is better than a monk. break down just the feats specials for archery if playing Human:
Ranger
Level 1 Human Feat:Point Blank
Level 1 Feat: Precise Shot
Level 2 Combat Style Feat: rapid shot
Level 3 Feat: weapon focus (bow)
Level 5 Feat: Deadly Aim
Level 6 Combat Style Feat: Improved precise strikevs
Monk
Level 1 Human Feat:Precise Shot
Level 1 feat: Point Blank
Level 1 Zen Archer Free Feat: Perfect Strike
Level 1 Monk Bonus: Far shot
Level 2 Monk Bonus: Dodge
Level 2 Zen Archer Free Feat: Weapon Focus
Level 3 Zen Archer Free Feat: Point Blank Master
Level 3 Feat:Mobility
Level 5 Feat:Deadly Aim or Shot on the Run
Level 6 Monk Bonus:Improved Precise Shot
Level 6 Zen Archer Free Feat: Weapon SpecilizationAnd flurry for a monk uses BAB = to the Characters level so at level 6 when flurry your BA is treated as +6 then its -2 because of extra attacks as if using rapid shot.For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level.
ALL of this makes the Monk the best choice hands down. Just look at what all you get. The Point Blank Master is a 11+ level feat that makes you get NO AOO for using bow in melee combat. That is the best feat ever.
Point Blank Master is available to the Zen Archer Monk at level 3, the fighter at Level 5 and the Ranger at level 6.
Yeah honestly at high levels a zen archer will still be outdamaged by the fighter -- barely. Weapon training +6 really helps with the accuracy and over all damage.
However Cluster shot is what really puts the nail in the coffin for melee.