If so, what are your experiences. I'm really tempted from a GM position, but I want to know what sort of things I need to account for if I were to do this. Simply put, I really hate the basic magic system at higher levels, where much of the legacy content is ridiculous. I'd like to try WoP as the exclusive casting system, but I'd like to see what issues there have been for players or GMs who have tried it already.
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If so, what are your experiences. I'm really tempted from a GM position, but I want to know what sort of things I need to account for if I were to do this. Simply put, I really hate the basic magic system at higher levels, where much of the legacy content is ridiculous. I'd like to try WoP as the exclusive casting system, but I'd like to see what issues there have been for players or GMs who have tried it already.
Biggest issue is everyone at the table (that will possibly use magic) be familiar with the system. If you are going to do this I suggest having a reference or cheat sheet for both yourself and the players. Also, have you looked at how WoP interact with crafting?
If so, what are your experiences. I'm really tempted from a GM position, but I want to know what sort of things I need to account for if I were to do this. Simply put, I really hate the basic magic system at higher levels, where much of the legacy content is ridiculous. I'd like to try WoP as the exclusive casting system, but I'd like to see what issues there have been for players or GMs who have tried it already.Biggest issue is everyone at the table (that will possibly use magic) be familiar with the system. If you are going to do this I suggest having a reference or cheat sheet for both yourself and the players. Also, have you looked at how WoP interact with crafting?
I was already planning on scrapping crafting all together, save for the use of Craft skills in the same ways that people currently use Profession skills.
I'm not sure how bad swapping to WoP would be for my gaming group as, quite frankly, not all that many of them are familiar with the existing casting rules. WoP seems like it would be a lot easier to teach.
Isn't the words of power more complex considering that certain guidelines must be met when developing spells? Not only that but you would have to create an entire new system which doesn't sound worthwhile to do just for yourself personally. I personally don't think you should remove crafting and this is why. If you implemented into your game certain materials people needed for items you could create a balanced item system that could invoke motivation and roleplay. As for the profession skills I feel that they're extremely weak for what you get out of them. There should be profession skill bundles.
Isn't the words of power more complex considering that certain guidelines must be met when developing spells? Not only that but you would have to create an entire new system which doesn't sound worthwhile to do just for yourself personally. I personally don't think you should remove crafting and this is why. If you implemented into your game certain materials people needed for items you could create a balanced item system that could invoke motivation and roleplay. As for the profession skills I feel that they're extremely weak for what you get out of them. There should be profession skill bundles.
From what I can tell, here's what WoP does:
-Full casters no longer become ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS after they get access to 5th level spells.
-3/4 casters (like Inquisitor and Bard) take a slight hit to power
-Martial casters (Ranger, Paladin) lose some incredible spells, making the non-spell casting archetypes look less stupid. Even without spells, though, both of these classes are fine.
-Spells become more customizable in general, but less game-changing in a single cast (see: Black Tentacles)
I find WoP to be less complex because you can always tell exactly what blast template to use and each Effect Word is a singular, discrete effect. There's no question that a lot of tactics change substantially when moving away from the standard spell set. I'd just like to know if anyone has tried it.
RE: crafting - if PFS can do it, I think it's a reasonable thing to implement. Doesn't seem to have had too many problems thus far. Yes, some RP elements are lost, but I'm not terribly concerned about that. You can build around different character concepts than "the guy who will craft the best sword in the world."
The big issue with replacing everything with Words of Power is that there just aren't that many Words of Power spells. Whether that's a bug or a feature is up to the GM, I suppose.
For instance, the 7th level cleric word list has a whopping two spells. And the 6th level alchemist list has only one spell!
The big issue with replacing everything with Words of Power is that there just aren't that many Words of Power spells. Whether that's a bug or a feature is up to the GM, I suppose.
For instance, the 7th level cleric word list has a whopping two spells. And the 6th level alchemist list has only one spell!
True on both counts. Also, if going by Effect Word count, Druids are substantially better than Clerics at 9th level, getting all of the same Words as Clerics, but adding True Fire to the list, as well.
I'm of the opinion that there needs to be some revising of WoP, but part of the appeal to the system is that you can get some nice action economy at the higher levels. Honestly, I'm more psyched to have 7th level slots for 2 5th level Effect Words than for the 7th level Words themselves. As you stated, though, bug or feature depends on the GM.
Honestly, my impression is that a lot of the WoP system is less abusable than the standard magic system. I'd probably have a few re-writes to classes along with this
Honestly, I'm more psyched to have 7th level slots for 2 5th level Effect Words than for the 7th level Words themselves.
I agree that there are some really neat aspects to the Words of Power system -- the different spell shapes, combining spells, boosting spells, etc. But the actual effect words themselves are a mixed bag, IMO.
Honestly, I'm more psyched to have 7th level slots for 2 5th level Effect Words than for the 7th level Words themselves.I agree that there are some really neat aspects to the Words of Power system -- the different spell shapes, combining spells, boosting spells, etc. But the actual effect words themselves are a mixed bag, IMO.
Absolutely true, though I somewhat feel the same about standard magic. Namely the constant nagging concern of "What does the Wizard have prepared today and how will it annihilate me?" I find there are too many options in standard magic that are difficult to account for and, unfortunately, many of them are simply plot-ruining without some degree of handwaving and saying "you can't."
I don't mind combat-oriented spells. I do, however, mind spells that allow for content bypassing. WoP doesn't really have any of those.
I don't mind combat-oriented spells. I do, however, mind spells that allow for content bypassing. WoP doesn't really have any of those.
I'm not sure what you mean. There are effect words for flying (Soar), scrying (Far Sight) and teleporting (Dimensional Hop/Jump). Aren't those three of the biggest "content bypassers"?
I guess there's no Wind Walk-equivalent and the Find the Path-equivalent is not as powerful.
I don't mind combat-oriented spells. I do, however, mind spells that allow for content bypassing. WoP doesn't really have any of those.I'm not sure what you mean. There are effect words for flying (Soar), scrying (Far Sight) and teleporting (Dimensional Hop/Jump). Aren't those three of the biggest "content bypassers"?
I guess there's no Wind Walk-equivalent and the Find the Path-equivalent is not as powerful.
Soar is certainly no Overland Flight for oneself, but Fly also has the wonderful "oh look, it got dispelled but I'm Featherfalling" feature that Soar lacks. The only significant advantage to Soar is that you can Boost Selected to make it group target.
Dimensional Hop is the one spell that's really odd in this comparison. In particular, you can use it on other people at range. This is really interesting from a tactical standpoint. Significant downside: both locations must be within line of sight. This is where the content bypassing typically comes in.
Dimensional Jump only affects the caster, unless using a level 8 slot by Boost Selected usage. The Selected Target Word requires only 1 target if not Boosted and the caster MUST be in the target selection for the Wordspell. Typically, this is not a particularly good deal for the caster, unless the content you're bypassing is a fetch quest between cities that can be completed with one person.
My problem spells are things like Permanency (which can bypass a number of different things based on what you choose to make Permanent), Legend Lore/Vision (if you can hand-wave the time required, provides plot-killing information relatively easily), and Wish/Limited Wish/Miracle (obvious).
I do have some negative feelings towards some of the "God-Wizard" spells in combat, but I have fewer problems with it if the other players in the party feel like they're meaningfully contributing when they compare themselves to the caster in question. Words of Power are significantly easier to balance against, at least from what I can tell. I was hoping to see some opinions from actual play to validate, though.
Problem I see is that there are no new Words, and there probably won't be any, even if there are alot new spells in future books.
Also the flexibility is a trap, alot of effect words have exactly one single target word they can be used with, and then your flexibility is to boost it or not.
I think using the Experimental Spellcaster feat to give your casters some word-spells might be a nice touch, but completely replacing the system? I dunno.
Problem I see is that there are no new Words, and there probably won't be any, even if there are alot new spells in future books.
Also the flexibility is a trap, alot of effect words have exactly one single target word they can be used with, and then your flexibility is to boost it or not.
Absolutely fair point. I would probably be willing to work with players who wanted to expand on the system to homebrew Effect Words, particularly if they're playing spontaneous casters.
That said, I was planning on tweaking casters to go with it, if I do this. Namely, Sorcs/Oracles get spells on odd levels, Witches/Wizards/Druids/Clerics get them on evens, but Wizards/Witches get all Words, just like Druids/Clerics. Bloodline and Mystery bonus spells would turn into an additional Word choice.
I think using the Experimental Spellcaster feat to give your casters some word-spells might be a nice touch, but completely replacing the system? I dunno.
My main issue is that I have a particular dislike of the standard magic system. Experimental Caster doesn't help that.
I thought about this but due to the dearth of Words I think you're going to lose a lot of the quirky flavoured spells.
I like the concept but WoP just seems...bland... to me.
WoP establishes a baseline, IMO, and is not designed to be comprehensive. It's an optional rule set, much like the alternate damage systems in UC.
Part of my problem has been that the standard magic system has SO MANY OPTIONS. Yes, there are quirky spells that are really cool in some situations. Some of them are quirky to the point of being too situational to prepare or know.
The greater problem is that the specificity of some spells makes them more useful that other spells to a degree where you would be stupid not to have them. Look at Haste. It looks like a mea culpa that the equivalent Wordspell takes 2 Meta Word Boosts AND is a level 6 slot.
I'm more than willing to expand WoP as needed for a campaign. I just want to know if it's a sufficient baseline before launching into something and finding that my players are going to run into excessive (read: more than intended) problems with the system.
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Also the flexibility is a trap, alot of effect words have exactly one single target word they can be used with, and then your flexibility is to boost it or not.
The most egregious example (IMO) is the Barrier target word. It sounds cool, until you realise that most effect words can't use it effectively (either because the duration is instantaneous or it's outright not allowed), and most of the ones that can use it can only be barriers.
Similarly, combining multiple effect words sounds really cool (yay! I can make a Painful Fireball!) until you look at the restrictions on duration (oh...my Painful Fireball has a duration of instantaneous, so the Painful part is useless...), group (oh...no combining energy resistance and +4 Strength...), and total damage (oh...no double-strength fireball...).
Also the flexibility is a trap, alot of effect words have exactly one single target word they can be used with, and then your flexibility is to boost it or not.The most egregious example (IMO) is the Barrier target word. It sounds cool, until you realise that most effect words can't use it effectively (either because the duration is instantaneous or it's outright not allowed), and most of the ones that can use it can only be barriers.
Similarly, combining multiple effect words sounds really cool (yay! I can make a Painful Fireball!) until you look at the restrictions on duration (oh...my Painful Fireball has a duration of instantaneous, so the Painful part is useless...), group (oh...no combining energy resistance and +4 Strength...), and total damage (oh...no double-strength fireball...).
Barrier is the poor man's positionable Line on instantaneous, giving you tricky positioning and increasing length per level at the cost of needing to target things on the ground.
Regarding Effect Word combinations, yes, there are combos that people would love to use that simply don't function. Then again, there are combinations that are amazing (see: Ravingdork's Intensified Lengthy Selected Corrosive Bolt, a 3rd level slot dealing 40d4 damage over 4 rounds, which you can Maximize with a Lesser Metamagic Rod). What about Selected Soar Simple Command (4th level slot) which, with the right positioning, can cause somebody to fly off a cliff at your behest when using the Flee command?
The biggest problem most people have is trying to make an Improved Fireball style spell, when sideways thinking is really important with WoP.
Barrier is the poor man's positionable Line on instantaneous, giving you tricky positioning and increasing length per level at the cost of needing to target things on the ground.The most egregious example (IMO) is the Barrier target word. It sounds cool, until you realise that most effect words can't use it effectively (either because the duration is instantaneous or it's outright not allowed), and most of the ones that can use it can only be barriers.
Similarly, combining multiple effect words sounds really cool (yay! I can make a Painful Fireball!) until you look at the restrictions on duration (oh...my Painful Fireball has a duration of instantaneous, so the Painful part is useless...), group (oh...no combining energy resistance and +4 Strength...), and total damage (oh...no double-strength fireball...).
Note that the Barrier target word has a range of Close, so the increasing length may not be quite as long as you think. But yes, you can use it to make unusually shaped line effects. But I was hoping for Wall of Shout or Wall of Acid Fog or Wall of Power Word Kill! Oh well...
The biggest problem most people have is trying to make an Improved Fireball style spell, when sideways thinking is really important with WoP.
I guess it's a matter of taste. When I first heard about Words of Power, I figured I would have a wide variety of combinations to choose from rather than having to "dumpster dive" in order to find interesting mixtures.
This finally caught my interest last night. I decided to have a good look at it from a Sorcerer's point of view. I though it would great fun to combine Words all the time. I was disappointed, by still pretty keen to give it a go.
Unfortunately the Sorcerer can't combine Words till Fourth level where he can combine two 0-level twice(?) per day.
It is not till Fourth level that you can use two Meta words per day.
I'm tempted to run a PbP game for WoP only, just a few combats at different levels, sort of a play test I suppose. Levels 1, 4, 7, 10 or something. But finding the time let alone the interested players...?
Also the flexibility is a trap, alot of effect words have exactly one single target word they can be used with, and then your flexibility is to boost it or not.The most egregious example (IMO) is the Barrier target word. It sounds cool, until you realise that most effect words can't use it effectively (either because the duration is instantaneous or it's outright not allowed), and most of the ones that can use it can only be barriers.
Similarly, combining multiple effect words sounds really cool (yay! I can make a Painful Fireball!) until you look at the restrictions on duration (oh...my Painful Fireball has a duration of instantaneous, so the Painful part is useless...), group (oh...no combining energy resistance and +4 Strength...), and total damage (oh...no double-strength fireball...).
The combo limitations are annoying, yes. However in one of my games the DM agreed to implement a houserule where instantaneous durations are effectively decoupled from this rule, so stuff like Painful Fireball is now a reality. Since my character has only just hit level 4, I've not had the chance to test these in play yet, but the theory of 1d4 damage (from any evocation cantrip) plus the Cramp word seems effective, if not a bit of a waste of a 2nd-level spell slot.
This finally caught my interest last night. I decided to have a good look at it from a Sorcerer's point of view. I though it would great fun to combine Words all the time. I was disappointed, by still pretty keen to give it a go.
Unfortunately the Sorcerer can't combine Words till Fourth level where he can combine two 0-level twice(?) per day.
It is not till Fourth level that you can use two Meta words per day.
I'm playing a low-level Oracle using Words of Power, and I'm also a bit skeptical about it so far. The relatively small number of meta words uses (Meta Word Mastery is practically a must-have), the relatively small spell list, the somewhat arbitrary restrictions on which words you can combine, etc.
On the plus side, there are some neat spell effects that are better (or at least different) than the normal cleric/oracle equivalent.
This finally caught my interest last night. I decided to have a good look at it from a Sorcerer's point of view. I though it would great fun to combine Words all the time. I was disappointed, by still pretty keen to give it a go.
Unfortunately the Sorcerer can't combine Words till Fourth level where he can combine two 0-level twice(?) per day.
It is not till Fourth level that you can use two Meta words per day.I'm playing a low-level Oracle using Words of Power, and I'm also a bit skeptical about it so far. The relatively small number of meta words uses (Meta Word Mastery is practically a must-have), the relatively small spell list, the somewhat arbitrary restrictions on which words you can combine, etc.
On the plus side, there are some neat spell effects that are better (or at least different) than the normal cleric/oracle equivalent.
Yeah, I was planning on building in an extra 3 Metas per day for everyone. Metas are incredibly important to WoP and I don't like the feat tax feel of MWM.
I'd be very much interested to hear if this comes off well. I find the current system of spells too random and individualized for my setting needs.
I'm with you on that.
This finally caught my interest last night. I decided to have a good look at it from a Sorcerer's point of view. I though it would great fun to combine Words all the time. I was disappointed, by still pretty keen to give it a go.
Unfortunately the Sorcerer can't combine Words till Fourth level where he can combine two 0-level twice(?) per day.
It is not till Fourth level that you can use two Meta words per day.I'm tempted to run a PbP game for WoP only, just a few combats at different levels, sort of a play test I suppose. Levels 1, 4, 7, 10 or something. But finding the time let alone the interested players...?
Another thought on this line of inquiry is that you are able to combine Words from level 1. The selection of Target Words can be just as important as the selection of Effect Words due to the variability of the combat field. Sometimes a line is better than a cone, or a cone better than a burst.
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What are you going to do for spells when they come from cleric domains, oracle mystery, sorcerer bloodline and/or witch patron.
What about wizards that specialize. I haven't looked at all the schools for all words, but it looks like theres not alot of word out there to cover all the schools at every spell level.
What are you going to do for spells when they come from cleric domains, oracle mystery, sorcerer bloodline and/or witch patron.
What about wizards that specialize. I haven't looked at all the schools for all words, but it looks like theres not alot of word out there to cover all the schools at every spell level.
Oracle and Sorceror are easy. I was just planning on given them 1 more Word known of their choice whenever they'd get a Bloodline or Mystery spell.
Clerics are, in my mind, the hardest to decide on. Part of me wants to say they'd just have 1 additional prepared slot, as I was planning on delaying all prepared casters by 1 level anyway. Even if I decided that everyone was gaining spells on odd levels, I might still go that route.
For Witches, I think I'd just allow them to pick one Effect Word from the Wizard/Sorc or Cleric lists that are not on the Witch list already for their spells known.
I have been running a sorc and am about to start a bard using the WOP system. It is kinda fun and gives you a creative way to expand your abilities.
Things I have done to make it work better -
Add Communal as a 2nd lvl target word
Taken the adopted trait to get access to the human AVP favored class ability of learning an extra word at every level (one lower than highest you can cast - which I doubt is RAW but it sure helps a lot)I do really hope that they support this system some more in the future...
Adding Communal is a really good idea in some regards, but unnecessary in others. The biggest thing is that it already exists (sort of) in the target line-up due to Boost Selected. While it increases the spell level, it also doesn't split the duration, so a Boost Selected Soar is, quite literally, Communal Fly in a 6th level slot.
At the same time, the niche is still there and desirable. I might say that, rather than being a level 2 Target Word, it's a level 1 Target Word that increases the level of any Effect Word in your Wordspell by 1. This keeps it chugging along with progression and more closely matches the existing Communal spell template.
The trick is that you have to go through all of the existing Effect Words to add it in. Wouldn't be too bad, but it is a slight concern.
WoP is a good system but sadly lacks dev commitment.
The System as it is now only really supports spontaneous Blasters who, like the char i am playing like to be able to nit up a magic solution to a problem at hand. It wont be the perfect counter for XY situation but it will get the job done.
Aside from the blasting point, WoP has MANY issues.
two examples:
- first grp teleport is a slot 8 *lol*
- "dispel" version in WoP allows a save AND cant target Spell effects *how very nice ...*
This is not a hate-post
I love WoP, it is great step towards a good spellsystem but it needs more than love.
Anyone willing to moderate a thread to balance and expand this system just give me a call. SO lets stop the whine and start the work.
If so, what are your experiences. I'm really tempted from a GM position, but I want to know what sort of things I need to account for if I were to do this. Simply put, I really hate the basic magic system at higher levels, where much of the legacy content is ridiculous. I'd like to try WoP as the exclusive casting system, but I'd like to see what issues there have been for players or GMs who have tried it already.
WoP is not complete. I would hold off doing this until more WoP material is published. (deep magic? 3rd party).
Right now WoP only works for some spont casters. There is just not enough words for prep casters.