A rogue is caught stealing by the city guard. Four guards stand 20' away from with crossbows, ready to fire. How do you handle this under the rules?
They don't have surprise, since they were all aware of each other before the start of combat. The guards can't have a readied action yet, because they are not in initiative.
If they have their crossbows pointed and ready to fire, they've already initiated combat and took readied actions.
Interesting.
Suppose you've run into an evil wizard, who wants to talk to the party and gloat. No-one is fighting yet. It's generally agreed that if one of the players says, "I cast Feeblemind on him," then you have to roll initiative, and if he wins, he gets his retaliation in first.
Can a player say something like, "I ready an action to draw dagger and throw it at him if he starts casting a spell?" and then do it even if he wins initiative? Is readying an action something that people can see?
I generally only allow readied actions after initiative starts. Otherwise, every DM (in self defense) would have every Orc charge with a Readied Action if someone opens the door. I say 'Self Defense' since ever character will say 'I have a Readied Action to shot anything ugly in the room once the door is open'. It just become who says 'Readied Action' first.
In your example, roll initiative. If the character wins, his action; but you might want to mention they have four crossbows leveled and they look trigger happy. If the guards win, they have Readied Actions to fire and then tell your thief not to move.
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I would actually have this vary be the experience and level of the players and guards. If your rogue is a newer player to the game, prone to foolish acts and you really don't want to turn them into a pin cushion, roll initiative and see who goes first. In a higher level campaign with decently skilled guards I would assume that if they take the time to surround a foe, they would ready an attack rather then gun him down first.
Again its all based on levels and players for me.
I think the technically correct answer is that everybody has to roll initiative, and if the rogue beats the guards (likely) he can do whatever he wants for his round before they can try to shoot him.
Depending on your relationship with your players and the style of the game, however, it wouldn't necessarily be unreasonable to let them ready shots for anything tricky the rogue tries, and then jump into initiative if the rogue is still standing afterwards. I'd personally be wary of this approach, however, because it suggests to me that players can do the same thing.
Overall, I'd say it depends on how you want to approach the transition from noncombat to combat in your game. If the encounter starts out with one or both sides obviously hostile (or intending to open with violence as soon as able), then clearly just roll initiative and go. But how do you handle it when there's some talking or sizing up going on for a short time before one side decides to fight? That's something you should decide and remain consistent on throughout the campaign.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Since it's unlikely everyone teleported to where they are, how did they get into the position they are in? You are assuming everyone is flat footed and that really doesn't make a ton of sense.
If the guards see you coming out a window and you don't notice them until you hit the ground, they will likely have readied actions. If you are coming out the window and see them, then you will probably roll initiative.
A Ready action "occurs just before the action that triggers it." Because of that line, I rule a ready action that targets a character on their first action of the initiative cycle uses their flat footed AC. Not sure if that's what the rules call for exactly, but I think it works.
A Ready action "occurs just before the action that triggers it." Because of that line, I rule a ready action that targets a character on their first action of the initiative cycle uses their flat footed AC. Not sure if that's what the rules call for exactly, but I think it works.
Readying an actions requires a standard action, however you can not take any actions until you have acted on your initiative. That is the reason combat reflexes is needed to make an AoO before your turn in the initiative order comes up.
PS:I am only making this statement so anyone that reads this knows that readying an action before combat starts is not supposed to happen. Even a surprise round is considered a part of combat so that is also an option, but saying you ready an action would not work because everyone would just say "I ready an action to....." before combat even started just as a precaution, and it would cause a lot of confusion over who went first.
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If the guards don't have supprise and they don't have a ready action then it is initiative as usual.
You mention that they are all aware of each other, so nobody has the advantage.
Also, just because the guards crossbows are loaded and ready to fire they are not necessarily pointing at the rogue, who would be making suitable evasions if either had yet had time to act. If the guards had happened upon the rogue unaware they may be able to shoot or ready an action. This would be represented by the rules by the guards having an advantage over the rogue, hence suprise, which you explicitly stated was not the case.
It can seem a little strange that the rogue could run past the guards (who probably would not get an attack of opportunity as they are using crossbows), but there are examples of this in fantasy films and novels. The guards attempt in vain to draw a sight on the nimble rogue as he barrels past them...
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It can seem a little strange that the rogue could run past the guards (who probably would not get an attack of opportunity as they are using crossbows), but there are examples of this in fantasy films and novels. The guards attempt in vain to draw a sight on the nimble rogue as he barrels past them...
Indeed, if this was an action movie, and the thief was the plucky hero, two of the guards would probably turn and shoot each other in the face as he dives between them...
Would it be different if the PCs capture a criminal NPC, and are leading him back to town to stand trial at sword point and arrow point?
Would it be different if the PCs capture a criminal NPC, and are leading him back to town to stand trial at sword point and arrow point?
I would hope they were smart enough to tie him up, but to answer the question, no.
NPC's and PC's follow the same combat rules.
You cannot normally ready an action to charge. There is a feat from Sargava: Lost Colony, Rhino's Charge, which allows this maneuver.
When players can use that technique, 'clear charging path' is rendered irrelevant. When a Barbarian with Pounce finds a rock between himself and an opponent, he can use a move action to get line of sight to an enemy, then ready an action to pounce the enemy on -- well -- any condition, really. Same goes for mounted chargers, druids, certain monks, etcetera.
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It's a pretty interesting question, and I like the answers posted. Here is a hypothetical situation that builds on the original question:
The guards and rouge are aware of each other, but the rouge BLUFFS the guards into thinking that he is unaware of their presence with the intent of making a sudden attack when they close in on him. Would it be possible for the rouge to get a surprise attack on the guards even though they are "aware" of his presence but not expecting him to do anything sudden?
It was just something I thought about as I was reading this thread, and thought it might be worth trying if I'm ever in one of those "getting captured" situations.
(This question isn't supposed to be as absurd as it sounds! No, honestly!)
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In 3.x you can't ready an action outside of combat.
Period.
Have witnessed Wizards designers making this same error several times, so it's pretty commonplace. Wish I could cite a PF source...unsure if they've changed it or left it unmentioned.
That half-turn of the 'out of combat' readied action is represented by the surprise round.
Ex. "Ready to fire when door is opened."
This isn't really a ready action, it's saying I'll fire during the surprise round. Otherwise, you could theoretically, 'ready', 'surprise' and 'win initiative' for three attacks before they go.
Imagine a monster doing that to the PCs...
If the opponent on the other side knows PCs are about to open the door his own "readied action" works the same way. Surprise if the PCs are caught unawares, regular round if both sides are 'ready'. Essentially, they roll initiative, both with intent to perform these actions, and with initiative determining who goes first.
In old school, the door opener could often be surprised. I don't think I'd play it that way, at least not in enemy territory, unless the enemy was hidden too.
As for escorting a prisoner, it could very well be a 'combat situation' the whole way home, particularly if it's a dangerous or hated foe. But initiative is unnecessary and breaks verisimilitude to play out turn by turn. It doesn't mean you aren't as tense as in any battle, and I just might slow down travel to represent the constant vigilance.
Against a standard prisoner, I would say 'being ready' just means you're armed and observant. You wouldn't normally go slower to be extra vigilant.
If the guards in this example ran around the corner and caught the rogue, then just roll initiative, since this is a textbook example of a combat where both sides are surprised, and the rogue could easily react first and run away.
On the other hand, you could very well say that the guards approach with their crossbows ready, which I think is the more realistic solution. In that case you absolutely get a readied action on the rogue but if the rogue wants to just drop prone he can do it before they fire.
There was a maneuver in the Hero System where you could take a -2 on your attack to 'ready' an action that will hit if they trigger it. Essentially, you've got them in your sights, and they know it.
If they trigger, you hit, since you've already made the attack roll. Of course, if you missed that attack roll, you don't have them in your sights, and they know that too.
The guy with the bead on them could do the equivalent of a bluff to distract the attacker, and he loses the attack.
Tactically unsound, it's a great RPing tool, especially if PCs often have to capture enemies, or in the rogue instance above.
DM: (rolls) "At least two of them have you dead to rights."
Player: "I look behind them with wide eyes." (rolls Bluff) "Then run."
DM then sees if the two fell for it, or shoot the rogue, automatically hitting, since they 'hit' already.
Something to chew on.
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Castilliano is right that readied actions can't be taken outside of combat. But one can be in combat and not actually be fighting. Initiative should be resolved when combat begins. And in this situation, when someone readies an action, combat begins. As stated, that doesn't mean bolts start flying, but it means someone who is faster than the guards may choose to do something before they do that (perhaps knowing that they will). This is how standoffs work in Pathfinder. Someone does something they shouldn't (cough), then everyone lets loose at all once with their readied actions.
There should be many situations in which someone does nothing on the first round of combat because they don't know combat has started yet. They should proceed as they were or delay action.
I've often had people/monsters do nothing in the first round of combat because they were still unaware a fight was breaking out.
I've also had people who didn't want combat 'ready' actions during combat for if actual battle broke out.
"Drop your weapon!" (Ready to attack if...)
Sometimes met with "You drop your weapon!" (Ready...)
It's made for great standoffs, all guns pointed, until enough discussion alleviates the wariness. Good stuff.
I agree somebody can choose to start combat by readying an action. It gets murky when all sides are readied, so I just go with initiative order at that point (with a surprise round if only some were readied).
A rogue is caught stealing by the city guard.
This would indicate, to me, that the rogue is suprised/has already failed his perception roll to notice the guards, since he has been caught and not "he sees the guards coming toward him". Hence on the suprise round they all ready actions to fire at him (standard actions to ready standard actions) as the guard leader tells him "Don't move! We have you covered!" (free action to speak even outside your action).
If, somehow, they all come to be in the physical positions you state with no one suprised, then they will have to roll initiative and declare actions as appropriate.
It is the nature of the game that 'being ready' does not always mean 'being quick enough to act before the enemy does', which is the whole reason there is an initative roll.
The game is supposed to be a bit cinematic. If the rogue is surrounded, just run combat normally. It's up to the rogue to figure out how to get out of this. We've all seen or read about the character who is surrounded but manages to fight or flee. If he makes a wrong decision, he will suffer the consequences.
We see this in cop shows all the time. CSI and Criminal Minds just had situations where the perp had someone at gun point. The perp was surrounded by cops with their guns drawn. In one instance, the perp drew down with the cops and lost initiative. In another, the perp dropped his weapon and his hostage won initiative and killed him.
I say just let it play out normally.
The game is supposed to be a bit cinematic. If the rogue is surrounded, just run combat normally. It's up to the rogue to figure out how to get out of this. We've all seen or read about the character who is surrounded but manages to fight or flee. If he makes a wrong decision, he will suffer the consequences.
We see this in cop shows all the time. CSI and Criminal Minds just had situations where the perp had someone at gun point. The perp was surrounded by cops with their guns drawn. In one instance, the perp drew down with the cops and lost initiative. In another, the perp dropped his weapon and his hostage won initiative and killed him.
I say just let it play out normally.
Reminds me of an early episode (pilot?) of Miami Vice where cops, guns aimed, have surrounded a world class assassin who has hands out. I think they hired a quickdraw performer (few if any lines) because he drew that gun in a blink and fired as fast, not using cutting/editing for the effect, just some awesome skills.
(Back to our normal thread...)
A variation:
After looking at the 4 readied light crossbows the unarmored thief says "Even with all crits, thats just 96 dam at most and i have 110, so you are not in the position to threaten me around." Do the NPC guards realize, that although they aim 4 light crossbows at point blank range at an unarmored human, that he might be correct and they cannot stop him by firing (assuming he is not bluffing about hp)?
And does the high level thief actually know, that he can shrug of cross bow bolts at point blank range?
This would be a instadeath moment for the rogue in my games at no point should that kind of knowledge come of the characters mouth or even be used by the player to make decisions.
Hit points has as much to do with bodily toughness as it does an ambient magical protective field, deific blessings or the ability to dodge a bit out of the way to turn a lethal sword blow (8 damage versus a 4 HP commoner) into a mere glancing blow (8 damage versus 80 HP Rogue).
If you keep trying to imagine a level 20 halfling standing in a street being beaten by a longsword and not dying, you're going to cause yourself headaches.
A variation:
After looking at the 4 readied light crossbows the unarmored thief says "Even with all crits, thats just 96 dam at most and i have 110, so you are not in the position to threaten me around." Do the NPC guards realize, that although they aim 4 light crossbows at point blank range at an unarmored human, that he might be correct and they cannot stop him by firing (assuming he is not bluffing about hp)?
And does the high level thief actually know, that he can shrug of cross bow bolts at point blank range?This would be a instadeath moment for the rogue in my games at no point should that kind of knowledge come of the characters mouth or even be used by the player to make decisions.
But if the rogue was hit often enough by crossbolts, he might have that knowledge. I know that 1-8 normal mosquitos stinging me once, will never threaten my life. Thats from experience.
The same way the rogue character might have lots of experience about crossbow bolts hitting him. Ok, he should not argue with hp numbers. But a high level char will have experienced that for some from our point of view strange reasons crossbow bolts, greatswords or gians clubs killing normal people on a single hit effect him not that much, even if they strike his unarmored body as long as he is not helpless. (Then its coup de grace and dangerous for the high level char.)
Unless he knows exactly what feats/class abilities/enchanments those guards have he better not make that assumption first off.
Second its the way it was written if the guy had made comments about his skill would keep him alive even after they are shot sure but bringing HP/AC/anything nonexistant to the character into coversation in character is just asking for the DM hammer.
Since it's unlikely everyone teleported to where they are, how did they get into the position they are in? You are assuming everyone is flat footed and that really doesn't make a ton of sense.
If the guards see you coming out a window and you don't notice them until you hit the ground, they will likely have readied actions. If you are coming out the window and see them, then you will probably roll initiative.
Exactly. My first question would be who saw who first, and how? Did these guards just sneak up? Are they stealthier in armor than a trained rogue can perceive? What is going on here?
If the guards were on a stakeout and knew somebody was coming to rob the place, they will likely have actions readied. But the rogue would still have to roll Perception to see whether he detected them.
THEN you ask questions about Initiative.
If they have their crossbows pointed and ready to fire, they've already initiated combat and took readied actions.
This. Combat started as soon as they loaded their crossbows. Effectively, the guards DO have the surprise round, since the party was unaware of ready-to-attack combatants. During that surprise round, the guards readied an action to shoot someone as soon as they moved. Just because a bolt hasn't been fired yet doesn't mean combat hasn't already started.
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Rules wise it would look like this:
Rogue Rolls Perception gets a 13
Guards Roll Stealth get a 15
Guards have Surprise Round Roll Initiative Get a 10.
Guards: "Freeze! Don't move or we'll shoot." Ready An Action to Fire on Rogue if he moves.
Rogue: "Look behind you a three headed monkey!" Bluff (standard action) 15 vs Sense Motive 6. Guards are Distracted. Rogue uses move action to find cover and Stealth.
ALTERNATIVELY
Rules wise it would look like this:
Rogue Rolls Perception gets a 13
Guards Roll Stealth get a 15
Guards have Surprise Round Roll Initiative Get a 10.
Guards: "Freeze! Don't move or we'll shoot." Ready An Action to Fire on Rogue if he moves.
Rogue: Rolls Initiative 15Runs past the guards.
Guards: Use readied action to fire once Rogue's move action is resolved. Guards now go on Initiative 15, after the rogue. If Rogue was in melee range of any of the guards they suffer a -4 penalty to fire into melee (as the rogue gets to use the guards for cover, clever rogue). Rogue still has a standard action left, he can keep running or fight. Guards still have a move action left, they can draw their swords or surround the rogue.
Rogue: Has a full turn.
Guards: Have a full turn.
Guards: "Freeze! Don't move or we'll shoot." Ready An Action to Fire on Rogue if he moves.Rogue: Rolls Initiative 15Runs past the guards.
Guards: Use readied action to fire once Rogue's move action is resolved. Guards now go on Initiative 15, after the rogue. If Rogue was in melee range of any of the guards they suffer a -4 penalty to fire into melee (as the rogue gets to use the guards for cover, clever rogue). Rogue still has a standard action left, he can keep running or fight. Guards still have a move action left, they can draw their swords or surround the rogue.
Rogue: Has a full turn.
Guards: Have a full turn.
Thats not right. Readied actions occur before the action that triggers them. The guards fire before the rogue leaves his square. Also, the guards initiative is set ahead of the rogue - they'll act before him after the readied action happens.
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.