Rogue Archetype question

[Daryl MacLeod]

I have a question about the Archetype "Knife Master" presented in Ultimate Combat.

The "Hidden Blade" class feature which replaces "Trap Finding" - the way I read it the class level bonus is moved from perception/disable device to sleight of hand checks made to conceal a light blade.

To me this would imply that a Knife Master can still use perception/disbale device to find & disarm traps - they just don't get the 1/2 level bonus on the check.

What concerns me is the final sentence in the Trap Finding class feature; "A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps."

Because this sentence is absent in the 'Hidden Blade' description does it mean that a Knife Master rogue cannot use disable device to disarm magic traps? Or does it mean that the Knife Master just loses the 1/2 level bonus on the check?

[Darksmokepuncher]

I read it as "doesn't get 1/2 level to the check.

My GM agreed. I really think this one will come down to a GM call.

[Are]

It says "This ability replaces trapfinding". That means you don't get any of the benefits of the trapfinding ability. Since the ability to use Disable Device to disarm magical traps is part of the trapfinding ability, the Knife Master isn't able to do that.

[Cheapy]

Ares is correct.

RAW on this is 100% clear. They cannot disarm magical traps.

[Daryl MacLeod]

I haven't checked to see how many archetypes actually replace trap finding - but if they do actually take away the abbility to disable a magical trap, rather then just lose the 1/2 level bonus I don't see how that is even close to being on par with the base class feature.

[Cheapy]

Daryl MacLeod wrote:

I haven't checked to see how many archetypes actually replace trap finding - but if they do actually take away the abbility to disable a magical trap, rather then just lose the 1/2 level bonus I don't see how that is even close to being on par with the base class feature.

Trust me. The rogue not having trapfinding is the least of his problems.

[gg405]

Daryl MacLeod wrote:

I haven't checked to see how many archetypes actually replace trap finding - but if they do actually take away the abbility to disable a magical trap, rather then just lose the 1/2 level bonus I don't see how that is even close to being on par with the base class feature.

Nearly all of them. But it's not really an issue that I've seen. Dispel Magic comes at level 5 caster anyway, and most of the archetypes imply that your central function is not "trap monkey". If you want a trap monkey, skip the archetypes, or go with Burglar, Scout, or Trapsmith - which *are* trap monkeys and don't lose Trapfinding.

The archetypes (IMO) are there to focus character concept rather than allow you to min-max with the best set of abilities (there's almost no fighter archetype that is "worth it" in terms of ability trade-out, in my mind).

But, when I make an arcane archer, I love to take a couple levels of Sniper and the Archer fighter archetype because it fits so well with the concept.

[Tomcat024]

There also quite a few more mechanical traps in this version of the rules. Compared to other systems. Personally if I was running something. I wouldn't use magical traps very often. They be a rare, dangerous thing. Something to make the party worry and think for a moment. Instead of going...rogue disarm it. I hate people assuming all rogues can disarm traps. When I think of a rogue, I think Han Solo or Sinbad the pirate or a lesser known character, Silk from The Belgariad Books by David Eddings.

[gg405]

Tomcat024 wrote:

There also quite a few more mechanical traps in this version of the rules. Compared to other systems. Personally if I was running something. I wouldn't use magical traps very often. They be a rare, dangerous thing. Something to make the party worry and think for a moment. Instead of going...rogue disarm it. I hate people assuming all rogues can disarm traps. When I think of a rogue, I think Han Solo or Sinbad the pirate or a lesser known character, Silk from The Belgariad Books by David Eddings.

My rogue archetype will always and forever be The Grey Mouser. But mostly because I'm short.

[Cheapy]

For what it's worth, the in-game Pathfinder Society canonically recommends using Summon Monster to trip traps.

[Tomcat024]

Cheapy wrote:

For what it's worth, the in-game Pathfinder Society canonically recommends using Summon Monster to trip traps.

Or Summon Monster could be the trap that you just tripped. Next thing you know, your in middle of a rope bridge with devil using you as target practice.

[Cheapy]

Tomcat024 wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

For what it's worth, the in-game Pathfinder Society canonically recommends using Summon Monster to trip traps.

Or Summon Monster could be the trap that you just tripped. Next thing you know, your in middle of a rope bridge with devil using you as target practice.

Well, then the devil is on the rope bridge with a celestial dog.