When the rules state the following:
Witch: Add one spell from the witch spell list to the witch's familiar. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level she can cast. If the witch ever replaces her familiar, the new familiar knows these bonus spells.
Wizard: Add one spell from the wizard spell list to the wizard's spellbook. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level he can cast.
Does this mean the highest spell my character can possibly cast? I made a min/maxed Witch with a starting INT score of 20 (+5 mod). This translates in my bonus spells as being able to cast level 5 spells once per day even though the Witch only starts 3 + Int Mod level 1 spells known and none higher.
Does the text above translate to me being able to select 1 additional level 0 spell (useless in this case as the Witch starts with all cantrips) or one level 4 or lower? I ask as the text states nothing about class and only states what my character could potentially cast, which in this case the highest one level 5 spell per day due to my int mod.
Is there a definitive source on this?
Thanks.
It says the highest level you can cast, not the highest level you can potentially cast. This seems pretty clear to me.
So, yes, it's a useless option when you're topping out at level 1 spells, but that won't be the case forever. Take extra hit points or skill points until then.
It says the highest level you can cast, not the highest level you can potentially cast. This seems pretty clear to me.
So, yes, it's a useless option when you're topping out at level 1 spells, but that won't be the case forever. Take extra hit points or skill points until then.
The confusion for me is that given the ultra specific wording used throughout the source-books, the usage of the word "can" is vague here as its use in that sentence doesn't bind the range of select-able spells to the character or the character's class or even the character's class level. The option states two things: [Add a spell to your book/familiar] and [This spell has to be at least one level lower than the highest you can cast]. The effect and its modifier (adding the spell and the level modifier) aren't directly linked. It makes sense the selection is bound to the normal Wizard spell list as in the Wizard section in the CRB it states a Wizard selects spells from that list. See where I'm getting at?
Forgive my rudeness, I am American. All I can see is you trying to min-max (whether you actually are or not).
Well, of course I am. That's the point of this character, to be very good at his magic but suck at pretty much everything else. This question arose in my mind when I first read the text though and that was a time previous to me creating the caster. I've discussed it with my GM and he stated that taking a 4th level spell or lower is okay so I'm going with that but was curious if there was an "official" (even "official"-ish) source on this situation.
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The way I read this is:
Witch: Add one spell from the witch spell list to the witch's familiar. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level [the witch] can cast. If the witch ever replaces her familiar, the new familiar knows these bonus spells.
Wizard: Add one spell from the wizard spell list to the wizard's spellbook. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level [the wizard] can cast.
I can see how the unaltered text would allow for you interpretation; however, I believe that the intent is clear.
The plain language does not lend itself more to your interpretation than a contrary one; therefore, I believe that the clear intent wins out -- it's the highest level spell that you can cast of that class.
Cool, thanks.
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When the rules state the following:
Witch: Add one spell from the witch spell list to the witch's familiar. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level she can cast. If the witch ever replaces her familiar, the new familiar knows these bonus spells.
Wizard: Add one spell from the wizard spell list to the wizard's spellbook. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level he can cast.
Does this mean the highest spell my character can possibly cast? I made a min/maxed Witch with a starting INT score of 20 (+5 mod). This translates in my bonus spells as being able to cast level 5 spells once per day even though the Witch only starts 3 + Int Mod level 1 spells known and none higher.
Does the text above translate to me being able to select 1 additional level 0 spell (useless in this case as the Witch starts with all cantrips) or one level 4 or lower? I ask as the text states nothing about class and only states what my character could potentially cast, which in this case the highest one level 5 spell per day due to my int mod.
Is there a definitive source on this?
Thanks.
maybe im just tired, but are you saying that due to your high inteligence(20 +5), your witch can cast a 5th level spell, because of the bonus spell chart? or can only cast 1st level spells w/ potinual of casting a bonus spell at 9th level on down?
Well, of course I am. That's the point of this character, to be very good at his magic but suck at pretty much everything else. This question arose in my mind when I first read the text though and that was a time previous to me creating the caster. I've discussed it with my GM and he stated that taking a 4th level spell or lower is okay so I'm going with that but was curious if there was an "official" (even "official"-ish) source on this situation.
There is. You quoted it yourself.
Witch: Add one spell from the witch spell list to the witch's familiar. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level she can cast. If the witch ever replaces her familiar, the new familiar knows these bonus spells.
At least one below the highest you can cast. Which, at level 1 or 2, means below Spell Level 1. Your potential bonus spell slots mean absolutely jack, as you are unable to cast spells above your class progression allotment.
Abilities and Spellcasters
The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level.
So, once again, at first level, your daily dose of spells is
0th (at will) 3
1st 1 + 2 Bonus
2nd NIL (Bonus spell is irrelevant)
3rd NIL (Bonus spell is irrelevant)
4th NIL (Bonus spell is irrelevant)
5th NIL (Bonus spell is irrelevant)
You don't have an allowance of 0 level 2 spells (which would allow you to include the bonus spell; see the Paladin progression for examples), you are flat out unable to handle second level spells, period. So, as the highest spell level you can cast is 1, you may chose whichever level 0 spell from the witch list catches your fancy. Oops, you already have them all? Try to research a new one, or put that fricking point someplace else.
On the other hand, if you progress into the epic levels, getting your hands on Level 10 slots, you can merrily choose additional 9th-level spells as your 'favored class bonus', as 9th level is at least one below your maximum.
Well, of course I am. That's the point of this character, to be very good at his magic but suck at pretty much everything else. This question arose in my mind when I first read the text though and that was a time previous to me creating the caster. I've discussed it with my GM and he stated that taking a 4th level spell or lower is okay so I'm going with that but was curious if there was an "official" (even "official"-ish) source on this situation.There is. You quoted it yourself.
Witch: Add one spell from the witch spell list to the witch's familiar. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level she can cast. If the witch ever replaces her familiar, the new familiar knows these bonus spells.At least one below the highest you can cast. Which, at level 1 or 2, means below Spell Level 1. Your potential bonus spell slots mean absolutely jack, as you are unable to cast spells above your class progression allotment.
Abilities and Spellcasters
The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level.So, once again, at first level, your daily dose of spells is
0th (at will) 3
1st 1 + 2 Bonus
2nd NIL (Bonus spell is irrelevant)
3rd NIL (Bonus spell is irrelevant)
4th NIL (Bonus spell is irrelevant)
5th NIL (Bonus spell is irrelevant)You don't have an allowance of 0 level 2 spells (which would allow you to include the bonus spell; see the Paladin progression for examples), you are flat out unable to handle second level spells, period. So, as the highest spell level you can cast is 1, you may chose whichever level 0 spell from the witch list catches your fancy. Oops, you already have them all? Try to research a...
I'll entertain a response to this.
Under the spells section in the Witch description:
To learn or cast a spell, a witch must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a witch's spell is 10 + the spell level + the witch's Intelligence modifier.
So with an Int score of 20 I can technically cast a 9th level spell since, as stated, I would only need an Int score of 19 to cast a 9th level spell (9 (spell level) + 10 (base) = 19). The bonus spell table does not allow me to cast a 9th level spell at first level but it does not mean I do not possess the raw talent to cast the spell. Hence, yes, I "can" cast those spells. I was simply framing my OP in the context of level 1 spells with a +5 Int mod which, I both CAN cast as per ability since my Int score is sufficient AND I also have sufficient casting slots as afforded to the bonus spells per day chart which the Witch benefits from:
A witch can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 2–10. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score (see Table 1–3 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).
So, to those of you trying to make it look like I'm trying to break the rules, the conclusion I reached upon my initial reading is very quite likely as both the Witch section on spells states I can not only a) have the aptitude to cast the spell but I also b) gain the spells per day slot from the stated table in the CRB and the option text does not limit the selection explicitly. Why is my conclusion so far fetched??
I've never played a single day of Pathfinder Society. However, if I were to I probably would, yes. I've recovered this account after not having it since '08. Who knows what stuff I did back then.
So, to those of you trying to make it look like I'm trying to break the rules, the conclusion I reached upon my initial reading is very quite likely as both the Witch section on spells states I can not only a) have the aptitude to cast the spell but I also b) gain the spells per day slot from the stated table in the CRB and the option text does not limit the selection explicitly. Why is my conclusion so far fetched??
Quite easy: You need to be of appropriate Level and have the required Intelligence.
To be able to cast 5th Level spells, you need INT 15+ and Level 9+ as a Witch.
If you lack the Level, you have no appropriate slot (your Bonus Spell slots coming into effect only after you have an actual numerical entry under 'Spells per Day'; an entry of '-' doesn't mean zero spells plus Bonus, it means 'no can do'
If you lack the Intelligence, you still get your slots. You just cannot use them for spells of that level.
So...
The maximum level of spells a Level 1 Witch with an INT of 20 can cast is 1.
The maximum level of spells a Level 5 Witch with an INT of 20 can cast is 3.
The maximum level of spells a Level 11 Witch with an INT of 15 can cast is 5. (even though she gets her Level 6 slot)
The maximum level of freebie spell you can choose on level-up for being a human is one below these figures.
What is the highest level spell as 3rd level Wizard or Witch can Cast?
If the number is anything other than 2...
Ah, that one's quite easy. Make a Witch with INT 11... and boom, the answer is 1 (which is other than 2)
*ducks for cover*
either way its worded. If he did have a lv 5 spell in his familiar he would still not be able to cast it till X level.
Its a waste of a favored class bonus anyway because wizards and witches can learn all the spells on their list eventually anyway.
Be a ratfolk instead. Our fav class bonus is amazing!
It says the highest level you can cast, not the highest level you can potentially cast. This seems pretty clear to me.
So, yes, it's a useless option when you're topping out at level 1 spells, but that won't be the case forever. Take extra hit points or skill points until then.
Not useless. There are the extra cantrips from the blog post that got dropped from the Ultimate Magic book. Those aren't auto-learned so you can use this to pick them up.