Hi all,
I'd welcome a critique of the following barbarian starting at level 8, with abilities planned through level 12. Ability scores were rolled, and no traits are currently used in the campaign. Core, APG, UM, and UC are all allowed.
Human (Heart of the Fields, FC: bonus to Superstition)
STR: 22(18 +2 racial +2 levels)
DEX: 16
CON: 17
INT: 13
WIS: 14
CHA: 11
1 Fast Movement, Rage, Power Attack, Improved Sunder
2 DR1/-, Lesser Beast Totem
3 Extreme Endurance, Extra Rage Power: Superstition
4 DR2/-, Strength Surge
5 Extra Rage Power: Witch Hunter
6 DR3/-, Fire Resist 1, Beast Totem
7 Extra Rage Power: Spell Sunder
8 DR4/-, Ghost Rager
- - - - -
9 Fire Resist 2, Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon / Smasher
10 DR5/-, Greater Beast Totem
11 Greater Rage, Combat Reflexes
12 Fire Resist3, DR6/-, Come and Get Me
Skills: Acrobatics, Perception, Profession(?), Survival, UMD
Thanks in advance for your advice!
I would highly recommend getting the Cleave, Great Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Improved Cleaving Finish line and Lunge. They are add a lot of power to a melee character.
Especially once you have Improved Cleaving Finish BBEG tend to evaporate if they try to surround themselves with minions as each time you kill a minion you can take a free swing at the BBEG, if you kills minions in 1 hit then you just need to move up Great Cleave and then you hit the BBEG once for Cleave and then every free attack you get can be on him. I have seen Cleaves hit a BBEG 5+ times in a single round.
If your DM is okay with cheese have a caster use summon monster to surround your target with lots of weak monsters and then end the BBEG.
I would really suggest grabbing raging vitality. It allows you to rage while unconscious. Otherwise you stop raging when brought to below zero and lose the temp hitpoints from raging and die.
Grabbing nimble moves/acrobatic steps or dragon style would make it a bit easier to charge, but I'm not sure it's worth dropping anything you have for those feats. If you can get potions of featherstep or get someone to cast freedom of moment on you some, that would help with charge lanes as well.
Unless your barbarian is an engineer, you want reckless over smasher.
I'd say you have a well put together barbarian. What's your weapon of choice? I recommend something with reach.
Dude's got claws. Spikes are optional.
What's your weapon of choice?
I was considering the bardiche from the APG: in this particular campaign the chance to critically hit is more important than the critical multiplier.
Lesser Beast Totem claws would be used for adjacent enemies.
About what I figured.
Short of a lance, you're solid. Remember to pick up raging vitality at some point, as well as dazing assault.
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Sorry to cut into someone else's barbarian thread, but it seemed like a good place to ask about my own barbarian. This is my first character in Pathfinder after returning to RPGs from a 20+ year hiatus, but I was a big D&D/AD&D player back in the 80's. My character just hit level 2, so it's time to pick my first rage power, and I'm a little confused on some things.
First, if you go with Beast Totem for the claws, does that mean you can't hold a weapon while making those attacks? My character uses two handed weapons, so both my hands are generally too busy to be clawing at people.
Also, if I'm reading this right, it seems that the Superstition rage power wouldn't stack with the normal +2 on will saves that all barbarians get while raging, because they're both morale bonuses. While it's still a useful rage power for fortitude and reflex saves against magic, and it increases to +3 at level 4, that would seem to make it a lot less useful than it seemed at first glance. Though I guess at higher levels, it just keeps getting better and better, and it is a prerequisite for other rage powers.
How come I haven't seen any support for Unexpected Strike in any of the barbarian threads I've seen? Getting a free first shot as soon as someone else approaches to attack you seems like a nice bonus.
For that matter, No Escape seems underestimated, as well. While it seems wimpy compared to things that give you extra attacks or extra damage, the ability to keep enemies from getting away from you in battle could be a decisive advantage in determining how a fight ends. It actually would have been very useful to have in my first adventure.
Another one I was considering taking right away is Guarded Life. In my last adventure, while still level 1, I got down to 2 HP while fighting the final boss of the mission, so I had to back out of the fight to shoot arrows since our healer couldn't get to me. Then, of course, I dropped to 0 when I stopped raging (after shooting the arrows, when the bad guy was already dead). If I knew I'd stabilize instantly if I hit negative HP, I wouldn't have bothered retreating, since I know my place is right up in the bad guy's face, where I can do the most damage.
Sorry to cut into someone else's barbarian thread, but it seemed like a good place to ask about my own barbarian. This is my first character in Pathfinder after returning to RPGs from a 20+ year hiatus, but I was a big D&D/AD&D player back in the 80's. My character just hit level 2, so it's time to pick my first rage power, and I'm a little confused on some things.
Quite alright. Welcome to the BEST CLASS IN THE GAME EVER EVER.
First, if you go with Beast Totem for the claws, does that mean you can't hold a weapon while making those attacks? My character uses two handed weapons, so both my hands are generally too busy to be clawing at people.
You can still hold a weapon in the claws, though you'd only be able to make one claw attack if you're holding a two-handed weapon without dropping the weapon altogether.
Also, if I'm reading this right, it seems that the Superstition rage power wouldn't stack with the normal +2 on will saves that all barbarians get while raging, because they're both morale bonuses. While it's still a useful rage power for fortitude and reflex saves against magic, and it increases to +3 at level 4, that would seem to make it a lot less useful than it seemed at first glance. Though I guess at higher levels, it just keeps getting better and better, and it is a prerequisite for other rage powers.
That's correct in 99% of games I've seen (One of my DMs lets them stack. Dear Sweet Merciful Christ.) The major thing about superstition to remember is that it applies to Will, Reflex, AND Fortitude saves.. and on top of that Humans can use their favored class bonus to get +1/3rd to Superstition's bonus. A 12th level Human who's done that every level is getting a +9 morale bonus to Fort/Ref/Will against any spells. This is NOT insignificant.
How come I haven't seen any support for Unexpected Strike in any of the barbarian threads I've seen? Getting a free first shot as soon as someone else approaches to attack you seems like a nice bonus.
1/rage is somewhat risky if you don't have a way to rage cycle, and at those levels you want things like Spell Sunder and Beast Totem (And occasionally Ghost Rager). At higher levels, it's really cool.. but at higher levels you tend to rarely need the added hit anyways. Still, if you have a way to rage cycle and don't plan on getting pounce, it's worth a pickup when it comes in.
For that matter, No Escape seems underestimated, as well. While it seems wimpy compared to things that give you extra attacks or extra damage, the ability to keep enemies from getting away from you in battle could be a decisive advantage in determining how a fight ends. It actually would have been very useful to have in my first adventure.
Again, the 1/rage makes it a risky thing... and it only works against withdraws. It does nothing to stop a 5-foot-step back, meaning you also have to take Step Up to stop that. And even then, the enemy can just cast defensively while right next to you if they're a caster... and if they're a fighter why in god's name would they be retreating? It's too situational, IME.
Another one I was considering taking right away is Guarded Life. In my last adventure, while still level 1, I got down to 2 HP while fighting the final boss of the mission, so I had to back out of the fight to shoot arrows since our healer couldn't get to me. Then, of course, I dropped to 0 when I stopped raging (after shooting the arrows, when the bad guy was already dead). If I knew I'd stabilize instantly if I hit negative HP, I wouldn't have bothered retreating, since I know my place is right up in the bad guy's face, where I can do the most damage.
Honestly, Raging Vitality does what Guarded Life is supposed to do, only better. By level 10, a 10 point conversion into nonlethal damage often won't stop you from falling over, having your rage end, and then you die (Bear in mind, the rage itself is giving you 20 HP). Raging Vitality works better as it 1) Gives you more HP to work with in the first place (In this case, you'd have 3 HP instead of 2 HP), and 2) It lets you keep raging while unconscious, which keeps you from dying.
All this for only a feat slot, which are much less useful to a Barbarian than Rage Powers are.
Dude's got claws. Spikes are optional.Spikes can be enchanted much cheaper than the amulet.
Don't quote me on this, but I think Permanency'd Greater Magic Fang is cheaper than even the spikes.
Barbarian the best class ever?
No my friend. That's the mythical bardbarian.
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Barbarian the best class ever?
No my friend. That's the mythical bardbarian.
What you mean, mythical?
Rekstuff VanHalen is no myth! He's 100% AWESOME.
Don't quote me on this, but I think Permanency'd Greater Magic Fang is cheaper than even the spikes.
Worst case scenario, where you're paying for scrolls, it's still cheaper.
+5 Claw
3,000 - Greater Magic Fang scroll, caster level 20
8,875 - Permanency Scroll, caster level 11
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11,875
Add 1,125 if you want the Permanency cast at 20th level.
I believe that price is per claw. So call it 26,000 for two +5 claws (which could be dispelled).
+5 Armor Spikes
350 - Masterwork Armor Spikes
50,000 - +5 Enhancement Bonus
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50,350
Of course, you now have a weapon that can be sundered. *shrug*
And, yes, the Amulet of Mighty Fists is much more expensive than either of the above options.
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Thanks for the feedback.
First, if you go with Beast Totem for the claws, does that mean you can't hold a weapon while making those attacks? My character uses two handed weapons, so both my hands are generally too busy to be clawing at people.You can still hold a weapon in the claws, though you'd only be able to make one claw attack if you're holding a two-handed weapon without dropping the weapon altogether.
Not that I don't believe you, but where does it say this in the rules? I just want to have something to show the DM, in case a debate comes up.
Thanks for the feedback.
First, if you go with Beast Totem for the claws, does that mean you can't hold a weapon while making those attacks? My character uses two handed weapons, so both my hands are generally too busy to be clawing at people.You can still hold a weapon in the claws, though you'd only be able to make one claw attack if you're holding a two-handed weapon without dropping the weapon altogether.
Not that I don't believe you, but where does it say this in the rules? I just want to have something to show the DM, in case a debate comes up.
Can't remember exactly, but it's related to a Paladin still being able to Lay On Hands himself as a swift if he's holding a two-handed weapon. Same basic idea.
Taking a hand off a weapon is a free action.
For example, this lets you two-hand and one-hand a longsword all in the same attack routine.
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Taking a hand off a weapon is a free action.
For example, this lets you two-hand and one-hand a longsword all in the same attack routine.
And again, while this makes logical sense and I believe you, I can't find where it says that in the Core Rulebook. I checked the combat chapter, where it lists the obvious free actions, and dropping an item is one of them, but it doesn't say anything about adding/removing a hand from items without letting go with the other hand.
This is actually my biggest complaint about Pathfinder so far. It's not newbie friendly. It's an incredibly complicated system (that's just an observation, not a complaint), yet there are a lot of rules that I'm assuming are carry overs from 3.5 that are never explicitly spelled out for beginners. Those of us who never played 3.5 (and there are a lot more than people here on the forums seem to realize) end up having to ask lots of silly questions because the rules just aren't very clear.
A much worse example of this is the fact that "Base Attack Bonus" is never actually explained anywhere in the Core Rulebook. I had to ask an experienced player whether it applied to hit rolls, damage rolls, or both. And it took some serious digging in the rulebook and reading between the lines to figure out why the higher levels had multiple bonuses with a slash between them. I still don't know if BAB applies to things like spell attack, or just to weapon/unarmed attacks, but my only characters in Pathfinder so far use weapons in combat, so I'll worry about that later.
Which brings me back to the Lesser Beast Totem claw attacks. Can they be used as an extra attack when using a weapon as a standard action, or can you only claw as part of a full attack? From the section on full attacks in the combat chapter of the Core Rulebook, it sounds like any extra attack like this can only be used with a full attack, but again, it's not really clear. And then there are things like the cleave feat which specifically says that it works with standard action attacks, so that just confuses things more, although that one seems like a clearly spelled out exception to the normal rule.
Actually, there's nothing that's carried over from 3.5 that's in the game and not explicitly said.
If something was the case in 3.5, but there's no text for it in PF, then that is not the case in PF.
Anyways...
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
The free action bit is somewhere. I'll find it eventually.
Trinam: What barbarian archetypes do you like, and why?
We cannot find it because it does not exist.
There is no action given for switching hands. According the PRD, this means that it is a Not An Action and can be done whenever.
Only Extraordinary, Supernatual, and SLA abilities default to Standard actions.
Trinam: What barbarian archetypes do you like, and why?
Dear god, it's like at some point I became a noted expert on barbarians. I blame AM.
Anyways, here's my favorites and why:
Invulnerable Rager: It's good for every build, as the constant DR/- and the fire or cold resistance it gives you are well worth the somewhat situational uncanny dodge and trap sense lines that you give up. You also get to keep Fast Movement, which is a power I love (despite being a fan of mounted barbarians. Yes, I know it doesn't make sense.)
Urban Barbarian: It stacks with Invulnerable Rager, can pump DEX, STR, or CON as needed, solves the need for Raging Vitaltiy and it is one of the keys to my AM FIGHTY archer barbarian build. The loss of Fast Movement always makes me hesitant, and TBH the power you get for it is situational, but it's worth it if you have a DEX-focused build that needs some Barbarian. Or if you're playing the legendary Bardbarian. Rekkstuff VanHalen is an Urban Barbarian.
Mounted Fury: I love me some barbarian mounts, and if you haven't broken the game like AM BARBARIAN has (Yes, I finally figured out what the flying heck BATTY BAT is. No, I'm not telling anyone. Just know that it is awesome, and that I will continue to maintain that nobody knows if it is a Dragon, a Pony, or a Dire Bat, and that it will definitely take itself out of the equation as far as 'target the mount' arguments go.), then this archetype is good. You lose out on the Invulnerable Rager archetype, but you get an automatic mount at 5th level AND can take the Boon Companion feat to give it the druid progression. It's very much nice, particularly since you can get it polymorphed AFTER it's created to stop it from being a horse. Now EVERYONE can ragelancepounce like a boss.
Elemental Kin: If you don't need Trap Sense, but you took Mounted Fury, but you want to keep Damage Reduction, this is your only option. It's situational, but if there are no traps in your game, you are literally missing out on nothing.
Superstitious: If you DON'T care about Damage Reduction, this is your best option with Mounted Fury. The bonus to initiative is very nice, and the added senses you get instead of DR/- is very helpful as well for sniffing out invisible castys.
Armored Hulk interests me, but I haven't been able to figure out a good way to make it work with how I play Barbarians. They aren't about having AC. Maybe if you made an Urban Barbarian that kept the high AC while raging with one it'd be good, but... they don't stack.
The others I don't really care for that much for one reason or another.
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Actually, there's nothing that's carried over from 3.5 that's in the game and not explicitly said.
If something was the case in 3.5, but there's no text for it in PF, then that is not the case in PF.
I wasn't talking about stuff that isn't mentioned in Pathfinder. I'm talking about stuff that's definitely included in Pathfinder, but never actually explained.
Like I said, Base Attack Bonus is the example of this that drove me nuts. I'm still trying to find an actual definition of BAB somewhere in the Core Rulebook, as the only explanations I've gotten so far come from other players and reading between the lines in the book. Granted, I haven't read all 575 pages of the Core Rulebook in detail, but if you're specifically searching for something, especially something that seems to come up this frequently, it shouldn't be that hard to find a definition.
Thanks for pointing out the Natural Attack stuff. As I said, I didn't read every single detail of the rules, and I kinda skimmed over some sections that I didn't think would apply to my first (bard) character, so I didn't remember seeing that. But am I reading it wrong, or does this part:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack.
... seem to say that you can't use a two handed weapon with a claw attack? After all, both your hands are already involved with your melee attack, so you don't have a hand that hasn't been used that could do the claw attack. Or is that where the dropping the weapon with one hand comes into play to allow the claw? That interpretation just doesn't seem to make sense based on that wording, but it's probably just something else that I'm missing as a newbie who doesn't know all the rules.
Oh yeah... Base attack bonus and iteratives are the things that aren't in the book. Forgot about those =/
I hate relying on permenancied spells as an augmentation to a primary weapon due to dispel magic.Don't quote me on this, but I think Permanency'd Greater Magic Fang is cheaper than even the spikes.Dude's got claws. Spikes are optional.Spikes can be enchanted much cheaper than the amulet.
I never considered the claws on a barbarian a primary weapon. Generally the primary is RAGELANCEPOUNCE, or else whatever other weapon they have.
Though if we're getting into that, wouldn't it be equally fair to say that sunder breaks +5 armor spikes?
Oh yeah... Base attack bonus and iteratives are the things that aren't in the book. Forgot about those =/This probably should get its own thread, but what's an iterative? I don't think I've seen that term before.
An extra attack you get from having your BAB being divisible by 5,plus one. So at 6th BAB, you have two attacks. One at base of 6,one at base of 1. It should be in the glossary, but that's the only place.
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An extra attack you get from having your BAB being divisible by 5,plus one. So at 6th BAB, you have two attacks. One at base of 6,one at base of 1. It should be in the glossary, but that's the only place.Oh yeah... Base attack bonus and iteratives are the things that aren't in the book. Forgot about those =/This probably should get its own thread, but what's an iterative? I don't think I've seen that term before.
I don't think that term is in Pathfinder. The one place the extra attack is referenced that I saw just calls it an extra attack.
Hmm, I think it's in the Appendix, not the glossary. But I don't have the CRB in front of me, and the PRD does not have the appendix.
Eitherway, if you hear someone say "iterative", they mean an extra attack gained from your BAB being above a certain point.
And I think BAB is fairly self explanatory. It's your base attack bonus. It's the attack bonus that goes up as you level.
I never considered the claws on a barbarian a primary weapon. Generally the primary is RAGELANCEPOUNCE, or else whatever other weapon they have.
Though if we're getting into that, wouldn't it be equally fair to say that sunder breaks +5 armor spikes?
A primary weapon, not the primary weapon.
Also, the broken condition is only -2 to hit and is repaired by a simple spell, I'll take that over having to pay to get re-enchanted any day.
YMMV, but I've never once sundered without full-on intent to destroy whatever I was sundering.
And 'gone' is a lot worse than 'I still have my claw but not the GMF'
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Hmm, I think it's in the Appendix, not the glossary. But I don't have the CRB in front of me, and the PRD does not have the appendix.
Eitherway, if you hear someone say "iterative", they mean an extra attack gained from your BAB being above a certain point.
And I think BAB is fairly self explanatory. It's your base attack bonus. It's the attack bonus that goes up as you level.
It just confused me at first, coming from a first edition D&D/AD&D background that didn't have that and not having played in 20+ years. I didn't realize "attack" referred specifically to hit rolls, so I wasn't sure if it was a bonus to hit rolls, damage, or both. And I didn't know about the extra attacks, so it took some digging to figure out why higher levels had more than one bonus listed.
As I said, it's a complicated game, and anything that's not explicitly spelled out is going to confuse newbies.
And frankly, the writing in the Core Rulebook is pretty dry. I looked into 4th edition before Pathfinder when I decided to get back into RPG's, and I have to say that the WotC D&D books are easier to just sit and read than the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. Remembering the details is harder when you're falling asleep from the boring writing style while reading the rules.
Yea, it is pretty dry. they attempted to make it easier to understand with the Beginner's Box.