As per the FAQ:
Witch: If I take levels in a prestige class that advances my spellcasting, do I continue to gain bonus spells from my patron as I gain levels?No. That is a class feature of the witch class, and the standard "+1 level of spellcasting" prestige class ability only advances spells known, spells per day, effective spellcaster level. (You retain the patron spells from your familiar based on your actual witch level, of course.)
I would have made the case to my players that Patron Spells were not stackable with prestige class +1 spell casting level.
However, how is this distinguished in the rules. Patron Spells are indeed a class feature, but so is a Wizards Spellcasting ability.
Is it formatted differently in the rules?
Of course it's a class feature, what else would it be? It is, however, not part of "+1 level of spellcasting".
Wizards however do not gain free spells for their books when they level in a PrC, nor do they get any bonus abilities or spells from a school of specialisation.
You do get these. They are granted by an ability Wizards get at level 1 which states they can prepare an additional spell of their specialization school of each spell level they can cast; it doesn't scale with class levels. Heres the text:
"In addition, specialist wizards receive an additional spell slot of each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a wizard can prepare a spell from his specialty school in that slot. This spell must be in the wizard's spellbook. A wizard can select a spell modified by a metamagic feat to prepare in his school slot, but it uses up a higher-level spell slot."
If someone can point out something that would disagree, please do, but I dont see any reason this ability would stop working across classes/prestige classes.
Wizards however do not gain free spells for their books when they level in a PrC, nor do they get any bonus abilities or spells from a school of specialisation.As per the FAQ:
Witch: If I take levels in a prestige class that advances my spellcasting, do I continue to gain bonus spells from my patron as I gain levels?No. That is a class feature of the witch class, and the standard "+1 level of spellcasting" prestige class ability only advances spells known, spells per day, effective spellcaster level. (You retain the patron spells from your familiar based on your actual witch level, of course.)
I would have made the case to my players that Patron Spells were not stackable with prestige class +1 spell casting level.
However, how is this distinguished in the rules. Patron Spells are indeed a class feature, but so is a Wizards Spellcasting ability.
Is it formatted differently in the rules?
I'm writing about this as a question as to what distinguishes patron spells from book spells. Or witchc casting from other arcane casting. I get it from the fluff perspective, just not the rules.
You do get these. They are granted by an ability Wizards get at level 1 which states they can prepare an additional spell of their specialization school of each spell level they can cast; it doesn't scale with class levels. Heres the text:
"In addition, specialist wizards receive an additional spell slot of each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a wizard can prepare a spell from his specialty school in that slot. This spell must be in the wizard's spellbook. A wizard can select a spell modified by a metamagic feat to prepare in his school slot, but it uses up a higher-level spell slot."
If someone can point out something that would disagree, please do, but I dont see any reason this ability would stop working across classes/prestige classes.
Here you are: check out the FAQ answer given here:
Prestige Classes and Spellcasters: Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?
No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.—Jason Bulmahn, 11/24/10
Here you are: check out the FAQ answer given here:
Prestige Classes and Spellcasters: Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?
No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.—Jason Bulmahn, 11/24/10
We're talking about different things. That refers to adding new spells to your spellbook when leveling. I'm referring to the bonus spell slot you get for having a school specialization. Its possible LazarX was referring to the same thing in his original post, but it was unclear.
Regardless, in regards to the OP's issues, the key thing is that Patron Spells is a seperate class feature from the Spells class feature for Witches. It explicitly scales with Witch level, and is not related to Spells Known, Spells Per Day, or Caster Level (which are the things noted as scaling with prestige class increases in spellcasting ability). Thats pretty much the entirety of the 'rules' portion of this, right?
Zaister, I believe what Krispy was pointing out was that they get the additional bonus spell every level as part of "spells per day."
Ah you're right. These should not go away when taking a prestige class, of course.
I'm writing about this as a question as to what distinguishes patron spells from book spells. Or witchc casting from other arcane casting.
Spells Gained at a New Level: "A witch's familiar learns a certain amount of lore and magic as the witch adventures. Whenever a witch gains a level, she may add two spells from the witch spell list to her familiar. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast."
Patron Spells: "At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch's patron adds new spells to a witch's list of spells known."
The Patron spells are specific and unchanging, based on the patron. At 2nd level, agility patron always grants Jump, Animals patron always grants Charm Animals.
However, at 2nd level, the familiar also learns 2 new spells of a level she can cast. You can choose these spells independent of patron.
As the FAQ says, a prestige class that grants +1 to spellcasting level does not grant either of these.
Rules wise patron spells (that is the list of spells that comes from a witch's patron) are specifically tied to your class level in the same manner that a sorcerer's bloodline spells are.
+1 spell caster per level only applies to your spell casting, not to your bonus spells rather they're from a patron or a bloodline.
OK so they would not get more spells added of maybe a higher level, but would they be able to cast more witch spells per day?
As a witch, you get Caster Levels (used when determining the effects of spells and penetrating spell resistance, etc.), and you get the Spells Per Day table as per a normal witch.
EDIT: Erm, did the post I replied to get ninja-deleted?
So is it safe to say if I take a Prestige class with +1 levels, that would allow me NOW to cast 4th level Witch spells where previously I could only cast 3rd, I could gain the 4th level WITCH list spell, but not the one the Patron could grant?
What do you mean "spells added of maybe a higher level"? If you mean added to their familiar by default, then no, they won't get those. If you mean the higher level spell slots then yes, they get those as those are part of the per day allotment of spells.Rules wise patron spells (that is the list of spells that comes from a witch's patron) are specifically tied to your class level in the same manner that a sorcerer's bloodline spells are.
+1 spell caster per level only applies to your spell casting, not to your bonus spells rather they're from a patron or a bloodline.
OK so they would not get more spells added of maybe a higher level, but would they be able to cast more witch spells per day?
A yes thank you that is what I meant.
For example, a level 4 witch who advances into a prestige class for level 5 gains a third level slot. However, until that witch learns a 3rd level spell, either from a scroll, being taught the spell, or what have you, then they don't know any third level spells to cast. (They can still use the slots, though, to cast lower level and/or metamagic spells.)
Perfect! Thank you!
That is how I thought it worked anyway. I really had no question until I read the FAQ than I started questioning myself:)