I have one of these in my group. At level 7, He's got Deadly Aim, Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid shot and Many shot.
So he's doing 4 attacks / round. With a strong BAB, he can leverage Deadly aim (+4) and Point Blank (+1) and Composite (+3) to get a total of like +8 damage on every hit. And he gets 4 arrows shot on a full attack. Assuming 3 out of 4 hit, that's +24 damage before he even rolls the arrow's damage, which I believe is something like 12 pts.
So, a solid 36 pts of damage each round...and when you add smite, that's another 9 pts of damage *on each hit* so a total of 27+36=63 pts.
Dang. Granted, it's situational. But even in most situations, he's gotting that solid 36 pts every round against just about everything with low - mid range armor.
Do melee fighters approach this? I know they can cleave...but that can fall flat if they wiff that first attack. Perhaps some of you can share me some level 7 fighter melee builds that approach this insane damage stuff so I feel better :P
Remember he can only shoot waht he sees. Also he can smite with his bow. Melee at this build is getting 2 attacks with power attack of +6 if two handed and with falchions can get an18-20 crit a lot more often.
I have one of these in my group. At level 7, He's got Deadly Aim, Point Blank, Precise Shot, Rapid shot and Many shot.
So he's doing 4 attacks / round. With a strong BAB, he can leverage Deadly aim (+4) and Point Blank (+1) and Composite (+3) to get a total of like +8 damage on every hit. And he gets 4 arrows shot on a full attack. Assuming 3 out of 4 hit, that's +24 damage before he even rolls the arrow's damage, which I believe is something like 12 pts.
So, a solid 36 pts of damage each round...and when you add smite, that's another 9 pts of damage *on each hit* so a total of 27+36=63 pts.
Dang. Granted, it's situational. But even in most situations, he's gotting that solid 36 pts every round against just about everything with low - mid range armor.
Do melee fighters approach this? I know they can cleave...but that can fall flat if they wiff that first attack. Perhaps some of you can share me some level 7 fighter melee builds that approach this insane damage stuff so I feel better :P
Archers in general are very strong in pathfinder. A ranger can do similar damage.
The fighter can't do as much damage with a bow when smite or favored enemy is on, but when it is not on the fighter still does enough damage to cause a lot of pain.Don't forget to enforce the rules for fighting in melee, and the rules for soft cover. Sending someone to visit the archer is also not a bad idea.
Creatures/casters with wind wall or fickle winds will make your archerdin very sad. :(
Oooh, popcorn time.
You can't walk through/around fickle winds.
|
Creatures/casters with wind wall or fickle winds will make your archerdin very sad. :(Wind wall works great, until they step past it, and shoot you anyway. Fickle Wind is a bit more obnoxious, but nothing that an archer can't walk around/through.
If the wind wall surrounds his targets, though, the archer is screwed.
It actually has very little resemblance to wind wall.
Fickle winds does not have an area. It is an effect placed on target creatures. You can no more go around or through it than mage armour.
|
Archers are only potent :
- When they can see an enemy
- In open plain
- When there is no one between them and the target
- When there is no smoke or sight-hindering effect
- When they have their bow
- When they are free of their movement
- When the DM don't apply the cover and concealment rules
- When there isn't too much wind
- When the casters didn't focus on them.
So he's doing 4 attacks / round. With a strong BAB, he can leverage Deadly aim (+4) and Point Blank (+1) and Composite (+3) to get a total of like +8 damage on every hit. And he gets 4 arrows shot on a full attack. Assuming 3 out of 4 hit, that's +24 damage before he even rolls the arrow's damage, which I believe is something like 12 pts.
So, a solid 36 pts of damage each round...and when you add smite, that's another 9 pts of damage *on each hit* so a total of 27+36=63 pts.
How does his arrows do 12 damage? 1d8 is standard for longbow, I can see being +1 at that level but +3 composite is still some cash too. What I can see is 1d8+1+8 or so then, unless occacionly you can use some enchanted arrows. That's 13.5 damage per hit, not bad.
With good BAB, his attack bonus should be something like +8 (7 bab, +1 point blank, +3 dex, +1 enchanted, -2 DA, -2 rapid shot). And 16 dex with 16 str and (i assume) 16 or so Cha is counting high and assuming he's dumped both Int and Wis or are on a high point buy. And this is within 30 ft.
His attack routine should be +8M/+8/+3, for 2d8+18/1d8+9/1d8+9 damage.
When smiting, this jumps up to +11M/+11/+6 for 2d8+32/1d8+16/1d8+16.
EDIT: Note that this is within 30 ft., which means you only get to do it once before the enemy's in your face.
Against an average CR7 enemy, you need to roll a 12 or better to hit if you're not smiting. How do you assume 3/4 attacks hit? That would be CR 1-2 enemies, in which case, you've got the right to PWN. The paladin is great when smiting, and decent otherwise... A fighter would out-DPR that by a wide margin.
|
It actually has very little resemblance to wind wall.
Fickle winds does not have an area. It is an effect placed on target creatures. You can no more go around or through it than mage armour.
Sure you can, it's just going to involve the Drag manuever, and since this is a squishy we are talking about, they are very likely to get carted off.
I have no idea where you're going with that. You can't drag someone out of a spell that's on them.
|
|
I have no idea where you're going with that. You can't drag someone out of a spell that's on them.
Sure you can, as a paladin you will have to do this the old-fasioned way: waiting or relying on your friends to get rid of it so you can get back into the fight, which if they know the archer is the team's hitter, they will take care of rather quickly.
Otherwise, you can always beat the caster to death, with a melee weapon, because despite your feat selection, you are still a paladin, you still have access to smite, a full BAB, and probably a decent strength score.
You could also take the time to cast some buff spells on yourself, so that when their spell is brought down, you can make up for lost time.
|
|
I'm sorry I'm really confused here. how is drag supposed to get you out of the spell? its a debuff from what I read of it and it specifically says its mobile so that it follows you when you move.
Read that again. You seemed to have missed a point.
Feel free to read this once you've read my post again.
Well, for those wondering how he hits so much...he has +13 (x2)/+13/+13/+8 with a Comp. Longbow +1 and +5 Dex Bonus (Guess where all his points went :P ) Pulling five CR: 6 Monsters reveals an average of AC: 19. So, he's got a 75% (x2 damage if hits)/75%/50% change to hit the average beastie (hence why I said Low to Medium armored opponents). If Smite bonus applies, that increases a bit. (He's to a magic item for +CHA, so +2 more) but that just offsets the penalty for deadly aim. That's why I said he hits an average of 3 times / level. Obviously, against a heavily armored opponent (A CR: 6 / Lv 7 evil human) could pull off a 26ish before buffing, 30ish if buffed well...and that makes his life a lot more difficult.
With Deadly Aim and Smite turned on he's doing 1d6+13 (I forgot..he's small halfling...that way he can ride a mount. That lets him move with great mobility AND full round attack! WOW.)
Average Damage/Round with Smite & Deadly aim vs AC: 19... 16.5 x 2.75 (average hits/round) = 45 solid damage/turn
Average Damage/Round without Smite (Neutral Enemy) Ac: 19 ... 9.5 x 2.35 = 22.3 solid damage/turn.
For comparison, I look at the group's barbarian. He's got a 23 STR whilest raging. +13/+8 on his two attacks. So, he's got a similar 75%/50% versus the average AC: 19. Damage with his +1 greatsword is 2d6+10.
Avg Damage / Round = 17 * 1.25= 27 Solid Damage / Turn.
Hmm...maybe I do just worry too much. LOL. It really is all about the smite. I know he's supposed to shine vs. evil. But, again, DANG. I know the standard tricks to keep him from total smite mode all of the time, as well as limiting archers effectiveness. I'll keep those in mind. But, DAAAANG. :P
With a +5 dex bonus, a +3 strength bonus, what is your charisma mod? Or rather, what point buy are you on?
How does he hit +13 with DA active? Just pulling numbers without explaining them won't do any good since we can't know if you've done anything wrong (mistakes happen
With a +1 Mighty Composite Bow (+3) and a Headband of Alluring Charisma, how's your wealth compared to the WBL?
Without a proper build we can't know if anything's broken or not.
|
Many take the numbers on ranged attacks without adding the penalty that over half your shots are at -4 because of cover.
Improved Precise is so critical, and while rangers and zen archers get it @ 6, everyone else had to wait till 11 or 16.
So rangers are still the more optimized archers; though as always Pallies are the "BBEG" killer of choice thanks to insane smite damage (though rangers give even that a run; by 10 most rangers have evil outsiders on their list, and can always instant enemy for +6 to hit / damage VS BBEG, evil or not.
Be sure to know the rules for cover.
The partial (soft) cover and soft cover is so easy to happen it makes the improved precise shot a must for a dedicated archer unless the vast majority of the game takes place in really open spaces.
Not many people pay attention to them, but there are a heck of alot of anti-archery spells even in Core, Wind Wall, Protection from Arrows, Displacement, Blur, Invisibility and it's Greater brother. PC's should be keeping these spells in mind as well.
Though only two spells of your list affect specifically archers (the rest affect melee as well) you have a point.
Compared to a 3.5 paladin, yes a PF paladin using a ranged weapon to smite is very powerful. And it may appear to be TOO powerful. But we should really be comparing it to Casters. How does the PF paladin compare to an equal level wizard/sor/cle/dru?
@Amuny
Just to add oil to the fire check the UM spell bestow grace of the champion, sure it's weaker than the aura of justice but comes way before that.
|
|
Allright, calling shenanigans. Let's call this a level 20 party (where really, the init round 1 should have ended combat), and have the sorcerer decide to buff haste. Each of the 3 melees attacks the demon/dragon 5 times (4 normal + 1 haste). The smite is only contributing 600 damage. That means they did 8400 damage seperate from smite, and most major gods were dead anyway.
Smite sharing is an amazing alpha-strike, but most lone BBEG are going to die to action economy pretty quickly anyway. Plus, you don't really get it till most people's "end game".
Composite Long bow is a medium weapon, halfling is small, he should have -2 to hit from that no?
Composite Long bow is a medium weapon, halfling is small, he should have -2 to hit from that no?
Small composite longbows do exist.
Composite Long bow is a medium weapon, halfling is small, he should have -2 to hit from that no?Small composite longbows do exist.
They do a D8?
They do a D8?Composite Long bow is a medium weapon, halfling is small, he should have -2 to hit from that no?Small composite longbows do exist.
No they do d6, just like the OP said in the post he told us that it's a halfling.
|
|
Optimized Melee fighters actually do far more in a round, btw; a polearm master (my favorite) also gets a lot of AOOs at bonus when things close
Melee fighter (Str: 19 by 7, with +2 stat item): +7 +1 (WF) +1 (polearm) +2 (magic) +5 (Str) = +16 / +11 to hit for
D12 (hammer) +7 (Str) +2 (weapon) +1 (polearm) +2 (WS) = +12 damage, 18.5 damage at almost double the bonus to hit.
He's +2 to hit on AOOs, and should have 3 (Dex 14, combat reflexes) so on closing round will often do more.
So he will outdamage the archer pretty insanely; he can't hit from range and only gets 1 attack + AOOs closing round, but makes up for that with +8 to hit on each attack and no -4 from the soft cover that is hard to work around.
Might want to consider what a lvl 7 2h barb can do as well, yes I know this is melee and not ranged, but its just to give you an idea of what a 2hander can deal at the same level.
Lvl 7 Half Elf IR Barb (traded adaptibility for the elven EWP trait)
we did a 4d6 drop lowest for stats, got 2 18s, put into str/con can't remember mental stats right now
Str: 23 (base 18, 2 racial, 1lvl, 2 belt)
Dex: 16 (base 14, 2 belt)
Con: 20 (base 18, 2 belt)
Wep: Furious Keen Elven Curve Blade +2 1d10 x2 15-20
Rage:
Atk: +22/+15
(7BAB, 8str (6base/2rage), -2PA, +2furious focus (first atk only), +1 wep focus, +4 wep(2base, +2 with furious), +2 reckless abandon)
Dmg: +22
(12str (1.5x for 2h wep), 6PA, 4 wep)
Non-Rage:
Atk: +16/+9
(7BAB, 6str, -2PA, +2furious focus(first atk only), +1 wep focus, +2 wep)
Dmg: +17
(9str (1.5x for 2h wep), 6PA, 2 wep)
While raging, if both attacks hit, which isn't that hard to do (although I have missed both attacks, rolled 2 twice in a row against a huge elemental :(), can do a base 44 damage + 2d10, and if I crit, it's +38 instead of +22, DM uses crit cards, so potential to do x3 which is +54 at that point...and with the 15-20 range, I threat pretty regularly
we've gotten quite a bit of money as we've progressed, which allowed me to get the +4 on sword and the belt, so we are above wbl.
Also there is the snatch arrows feat for monks and missle shield(APG) for shield using npcs that let them block one arrow per turn.
Though only two spells of your list affect specifically archers (the rest affect melee as well) you have a point.
Invisibility is less useful in melee because it's far easier to detect your location (and scent > invisibility in melee)
Well, for those wondering how he hits so much...he has +13 (x2)/+13/+13/+8 with a Comp. Longbow +1 and +5 Dex Bonus (Guess where all his points went :P ) Pulling five CR: 6 Monsters reveals an average of AC: 19. So, he's got a 75% (x2 damage if hits)/75%/50% change to hit the average beastie (hence why I said Low to Medium armored opponents).
He's a full BAB class. Being able to easily hit things around his CR and reliably hit those above his CR is the primary feature of a full BAB class.
With Deadly Aim and Smite turned on he's doing 1d6+13 (I forgot..he's small halfling...that way he can ride a mount. That lets him move with great mobility AND full round attack! WOW.)
Don't forget that mounted archery takes a -4 to hit when the mount double moves (and that the attacks happen halfway through the total movement).
|
|
Oh I agree; range and melee both have advantages. Melees get AOOs and flank, and generally gain more damage bonuses from buffs (as buffs to Str/size impact their damage). Range can take down fliers and always full attack, though until improved precise get -4 to hit on about 1/3rd their attacks (or 2/3 in a dungeon). All builds are viable. Smite is the BBEG killer of choice (instant enemy or skirmisher being a close 2nd, and not requiring evil), but it is very limited use (and people typically save it in the early levels), making the pally generally weaker in the average combat.
It's easy to take Pallies down a notch just by making the BBEG a group of 4 somewhat weaker BBEGs
Yeah so he have to use it twice that day on the 10uses he have as swift action.It's easy to take Pallies down a notch just by making the BBEG a group of 4 somewhat weaker BBEGs
Unless we are talking about oath of vengeance paladins then i suggest you check the PF paladin table.
|
|
Not many people pay attention to them, but there are a heck of alot of anti-archery spells even in Core, Wind Wall, Protection from Arrows, Displacement, Blur, Invisibility and it's Greater brother. PC's should be keeping these spells in mind as well.
There's a reason for that, Wind Wall stops being effective when they get to the other side of it, and since it's only 2 feet thick, that's pretty easy to do, Protection from arrows doesn't work if they do anything to make their arrows magic, which is something the paladin gets to do for free, Displacement and blur are defeated by the same feat, and invisibility is subject to so many different methods of being defeated it's not funny, plus it's only a 50% miss chance, that means you are statistically still taking damage every round as an invisible caster.
@Valandil Ancalime: That's a bad fight, casters have basically nothing on paladins, a pack of them might be able to get him to fail a few saves, but for the most part he's not going to notice their shenanigans. His fort and will saves are amazing, the best in the game, his reflex saves are merely good, because of charisma, he can heal himself, and he hits like a truck.
|
|
Don't forget that mounted archery takes a -4 to hit when the mount double moves (and that the attacks happen halfway through the total movement).
This is largely irrelevant. There's not often need for the mount to double-move, which means no archery penalty at all, and often the 50 or so feet the mount can single move will be enough.