Here's a go at my 'heroic' kobold racial setup. These kobolds were originally built using VoodooMike's race building guide, coming to 10 points (standard core race value).
Here's the racial readout:
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Kobold
Kobold is an available player character race. Kobold player characters use the following racial traits:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Strength, -2 Constitution: Kobolds are small, weak and frail but make up for this with their speed and forceful personalities.
Small: Kobolds are Small creatures and gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a -1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Normal Speed: Kobolds have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Kobolds can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Armour: Kobolds have a +1 natural armour bonus.
Crafty: Kobolds receive a +2 racial bonus on Craft (trapmaking) and Profession (miner) skill checks. Craft (trapmaking) and Stealth are always class skills.
Keen Senses: Kobolds receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Tunnel Runner: Kobolds take no penalties while squeezing.
Weapon Familiarity: Kobolds are proficient with all picks and treat any weapon with the word “kobold” in its name as a martial weapon.
Languages: Kobolds begin play speaking one regional language and Draconic. Kobolds with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Any regional language, Aklo, Dwarven, Gnome, Undercommon.
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Heroic Kobold
Type: Humanoid (reptilian) [0]
Small [0]
Normal Speed [0]
Dex +2, Cha +2, Str -2, Con -2
Ability scores derived as follows:
Greater Weakness (Str -4, Dex +2, Con -2) [-3]
Advanced Strength [4]
Advanced Charisma [4]
There was no good way of generating this ability score set.
Standard Languages [1]
Darkvision 60 ft. [1]
Crafty [4]
Natural Armour [2]
Skill Bonus [2]
Weapon Familiarity [1]
Tunnel Runner (unlisted, but circumstantial; I'll shoot low and call it 1 point) [1]
Total: 17
For reference, a link to VoodooMike's Guide.
I posted this in the races thread and decided to split it into its own thread to demonstrate some of the problems of the system. Would you say the heroic kobold is a reasonable PC race? Weak? Too strong? How well do you think the system reflects this?
(a) You massively overpaid for the stats; at most, they should cost as much as Standard abilities (0 RP).
(b) The bonus to Perception is part of the "Crafty" package, so you overspent 2 RP in that section as well.
So the total should be at most 10 RP (possibly less, because of the extra -2 to stats). Sounds about right to me, although I think the skill bonus abilities are overpriced in general.
Right; this is a 7 point race (the stats are -3, not +5), and you overpaid perception.
How did you come up with a -3 RP cost for the stats? The +2/+2/-2/-2 for the kobold clearly falls between the +2/+2/-2 for the Standard Modifiers (0 RP) and the +2/+2/-2/-4 for the Mixed Weakness Modifiers (-2 RP). The logical cost would be -1 RP, IMO.
Right; this is a 7 point race (the stats are -3, not +5), and you overpaid perception.How did you come up with a -3 RP cost for the stats? The +2/+2/-2/-2 for the kobold clearly falls between the +2/+2/-2 for the Standard Modifiers (0 RP) and the +2/+2/-2/-4 for the Mixed Weakness Modifiers (-2 RP). The logical cost would be -1 RP, IMO.
This is playtest area. We are not checking what is logical, we are testing what is in the rules - and the rules have the basic ability modifiers on page 7 and advanced ability modifying traits on page 8.
This is playtest area. We are not checking what is logical, we are testing what is in the rules - and the rules have the basic ability modifiers on page 7 and advanced ability modifying traits on page 8.
Oh, that's easy then. There's no such thing as "Tunnel Runner" in the rules posted, so it's impossible to build that race. The End.
Don't be a jerk. We're working together to ensure ARG is better, here.
Yes, I'm aware the stats are overpaid. This is becuase there is no cheaper way to get that array.
As for Tunnel Runner, I'm aware it doesn't exist. Replace it with some other 1 point ability if you like. The point remains the same.
I doublechecked the perception bonus and you're right. Somehow it had ended up split up in my version of the kobold. This presents an interesting dichotomy. For one, crafty is not listed under the abilities a race can normally get, so it's a special case for kobolds. Two, it is not priced the same as any other skill ability.
By the book, skills are 2 RP per +2 to a skill. Crafty is +2 to three skills and makes two skills into class skills. There is no ability that I can see that makes skills into class skills.
If we replace Tunnel Runner with some arbitrary other ability and remove the extraneous skill bonus, the total is 16.
If we ad-hoc the ability score cost to -1, the total becomes 11.
At the moment I think it overprices skills and languages and underprices natural armour.
Oh, that's easy then. There's no such thing as "Tunnel Runner" in the rules posted, so it's impossible to build that race. The End.
This is playtest area. We are not checking what is logical, we are testing what is in the rules - and the rules have the basic ability modifiers on page 7 and advanced ability modifying traits on page 8.
I knew I should add that smiley after logical part.
What I meant is that there are specific rules describing creation of ability scores and Umbarl Reaver applied them. Extrapolation of costs has its place where no rules to test have been adden, not where they are clearly (if not impressively) were given.
i'd just leave off the con penalty and go with standard. or just take standard and add the con penalty. as a GM i'd even let you have it for -1 RP.
Yes, I'm aware the stats are overpaid. This is becuase there is no cheaper way to get that array.
I agree that's worth noting to the developers that there's not much flexibility in the stat arrays that are available.
If we ad-hoc the ability score cost to -1, the total becomes 11.
How do you get 11?
Kobold Modifiers (Str -2, Dex +2, Con -2, Cha +2) [-1, estimated]
Standard Languages [1]
Darkvision 60 ft. [1]
Crafty [4]
Natural Armour [2]
Weapon Familiarity [1]
Tunnel Runner [1, estimated]
I get 9.
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EDIT: Oh, I see.
For one, crafty is not listed under the abilities a race can normally get, so it's a special case for kobolds.
Crafty is not listed in the normal ability list, but it's listed as costing 4 points in the Kobold example in the example section:
Kobold
Type
Humanoid (reptilian) 0 RPSize
Small 0 RPBase Speed
Normal 0 RPAbility Score Modifiers
Greater weakness (–4 Str, +2 Dex, –2 Con) –3 RPLanguages
Standard 1 RPRacial Abilities
Crafty 4 RP
Darkvision 60 ft. 2 RP
Light sensitivity –1 RP
Natural armor 1 RPTotal RP: 4
Whoops. I added the +2 from perception again. Because Crafty makes no sense by the system and I forgot when redoing it (I counted it as three skills again). It does come out to 9 points using those estimates above.
Sorry, but that's not relevant to the discussion. This is not a thread about kobolds. It's a thread about the problems that arise with an example race.
What is the problem? The problem exists in that you want the Kobold to be a 10 point race, and "heroic." So go ahead and the thing heroic. It only costs 4 points to be one for a reason.
If the kobold variant described in the original post really did cost 17 RP in order to replicate, I would agree that there's a big problem with the system; it's clearly not better than one of the standard races, IMO.
This discussion did come up with some useful results, I think:
- There should be more flexibility in how to assign stat modifiers.
- The costs for skill bonuses don't make much sense.