I know this will be subjective, but I expect it's something that will get a set level in the book.
As the system currently is, there exists the possibility for race to be so incredibly important to your role as an adventurer that it's not worth playing a race not 'optimised' for that role.
There are already some aspects of this in the core races, but it isn't terribly exaggerated (except for a few cases thanks to the APG).
Should race matter so greatly that your destiny is determined by your genetics and you will be consigned to failure if you sway from the path?
Should race matter so little that anyone can seek any profession without feeling like a second-class compared with those of the 'optimal' race?
This is a complex scale from one end to the other, and personally I lean mostly toward the 'race matters less' end of it. I can understand differing viewpoints and it's a worthwhile thing to discuss so long as we respect each others' views on it. What comes of the discussion may be very applicable to how Paizo develops this book so I encourage it.
I know this will be subjective, but I expect it's something that will get a set level in the book.
As the system currently is, there exists the possibility for race to be so incredibly important to your role as an adventurer that it's not worth playing a race not 'optimised' for that role.
There are already some aspects of this in the core races, but it isn't terribly exaggerated (except for a few cases thanks to the APG).
Should race matter so greatly that your destiny is determined by your genetics and you will be consigned to failure if you sway from the path?
Should race matter so little that anyone can seek any profession without feeling like a second-class compared with those of the 'optimal' race?
This is a complex scale from one end to the other, and personally I lean mostly toward the 'race matters less' end of it. I can understand differing viewpoints and it's a worthwhile thing to discuss so long as we respect each others' views on it. What comes of the discussion may be very applicable to how Paizo develops this book so I encourage it.
Interesting. I tend towards "race should matter more" but not in the way you've frame it - like for class optimization, etc. As I see it, a +x to a particular stat isn't all that game-breaking to overcome (core races anyway - race builder's certainly putt this to a challenge now).
What I like is how you said that "there exists the possibility for race to be so incredibly important to your role as an adventurer that it's not worth playing a race not 'optimised' for that role."
I actually haven't really seen to much of this, but the beginning half of that statement "incredibly important to your role as an adventurer" is where I would like to see things play out racially. I mean, if the ONLY difference between a human and a dwarf is summarized by +2's here and there - what's the point? There's nothing actually "different" about them much at all, especially when, within a few levels the "keen elven senses" of the mage are trumped by the honed senses of the human rogue. I mean, seriously - if it's the elven "schtick" to be "keen senses, or ears, or sight" then shouldn't that reflect in something more than a simple 1 time boost in a category where others can advance and actually be "more elfy than an elf" so to speak?
In racial traits and racial feats I'm seeing potential for making race matter, and not in a bad way, however, what I'm also seeing is that in order to "claim your heritage" you have to burn feats to prove how "dwarfy" or "elfy" or whatever you REALLY are - that's a bad design paradigm for making race somehow significant.
With this race builder, I'm wondering of a more subtle growth could instead be "baked into" certain races. Say every few levels an elf gains +x to Perception - BECAUSE he/she is an elf anyway. I mean, then the mage-elf is going to have good senses constantly, EVEN IF he doesn't invest in it - BECAUSE he's an elf. Follow?
So, instead of using RP's to calculate out just a "level 1 RP value" for races, instead the same things can be used to create a 20-level "racial development arc" or something similar. You know - things that the race just gets as they level to emphasize the nature of the race.
So, an elven rogue and human rogue will be different, but the elven rogue will always out-Perception a human one - his racial edges are just too much to overcome. Make sense?
Interesting. I tend towards "race should matter more" but not in the way you've frame it - like for class optimization, etc. As I see it, a +x to a particular stat isn't all that game-breaking to overcome (core races anyway - race builder's certainly putt this to a challenge now).
That's exactly why it's now a concern. A tiny, slow fey with Paragon Modifiers costs 2 RP. Assuming we're building for Charisma, that's a -4/+0/-2/+0/+0/+4 racial modifiers, with +2 to attack and AC. Add Advanced Charisma (4 RP) twice and then when you make a character of this race, bump their stat to a 16 (before racial modifiers). You now have a first level character with a 24 in a stat. 26 if you go all the way to an 18. They may not be great at anything else, but they are scary as a caster, and they just win at social situations against anything of the appropriate level. They have a significant advantage over any "ordinary" caster, with no great disadvantages.
And they preserve that advantage all the way up through level 20. Would you rather be a 18+2(racial)+5(level)+5(inherent)+6(enhancement) character with a 36 casting stat (+13) or a 18+8+5+5+6 character with a 42 (+16)? It's not as big of an advantage as having a +8 instead of a +5 at first level, but it's still pretty powerful.
Oh, definitely. I don't mind traits that are handy over a character's entire career. I just don't want the game to turn into: 'Sucks to be you; you weren't born the right race to be competitive in your chosen field'.
Most (not all) races should be generally applicable to most of the classes with none standing a head above the others in any specific area. If you choose fighter, there should be at least half of the races - maybe more - seeming as comparably good choices, for example.
Oh, and Bobson, do note that your above example does one thing very powerful you may not have noticed: It gets a second bonus 9th level spell per day much more easily. A normal race must push to the limit to get a second bonus spell of that level. This one can do it with ease.
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I prefer for race to matter more for role-playing and stuff than for mechanical bits. GURPS was cool, in that anything your race had as a special advantage or attribute modifier, you could pretty much buy anyway, making race more of a flavor choice, since the mechanical advantages were just a 'bundle' of traits that anyone else could have, if they wanted. (Even GURPS had a level of optimization, since it was cheaper to raise attributes, but the meta-game aspect of choosing a race because it made you a better fighter or made you a better mage was sharply reduced, in my experience.)
With this race builder, I'm wondering of a more subtle growth could instead be "baked into" certain races. Say every few levels an elf gains +x to Perception - BECAUSE he/she is an elf anyway. I mean, then the mage-elf is going to have good senses constantly, EVEN IF he doesn't invest in it - BECAUSE he's an elf. Follow?
+1
I use this same system in some of my races. Having it worked into the race value would be nice. In particular, I would like something similar to the 3.5 Raptorians' flight mechanic.
How about having racial levels like in Arcana Evolved? Take levels in said racial class and become more and more like a paragon of said race?
Not every elf will have keener senses then humans, the racial abilities show a inclination for them being so, but doesn't mean EVERY elf is more perceptive, and every dwarf is tougher, and every half orc is stronger. It just goes to show that stereotypically they are but not always.
How about having racial levels like in Arcana Evolved? Take levels in said racial class and become more and more like a paragon of said race?
Not every elf will have keener senses then humans, the racial abilities show a inclination for them being so, but doesn't mean EVERY elf is more perceptive, and every dwarf is tougher, and every half orc is stronger. It just goes to show that stereotypically they are but not always.
But the problem is that paragon classes are less about "class" and more about race. Which is to say that to be more "insert race"as you sacrifice class power and competency. That is not a good choice to me. The same is true of racial traits and feats. They emphasize race, but at the cost of a character resource (less traits, though. More true of feats).
To *me* this is a losing design paradigm. If you are a member of race X, then that race should count for something distinct - a genuine "we are different because" and small one offs at level 1is just can not emphasize this point.
Of course, this goes without saying that it conflicts with the view of "character matters most - ignore race." At the same time when the key justification is that the hero is now "epic" and can overcome "stuff" because he is just that good, then why can't his racial features be *as* epic as the character's level powers? Why does his racial heritage become such a nonfactor?
Using the human epic hero baseline - he is epic and is better than npc's around him of x , y, or z race. What about his companion the elf lord that has adventured with him from the beginning? He started out as an elf, and had the elven bonuses. Shouldn't he be as epic now, and his keener senses, etc still be THAT much better than his human companions at the epic levels? Did the human suddenly transcend his racial make-up to the point that his genetics are now better than his elven buddy's? Did the elf somehow lose his "elfness" in pursuuit of higher adventures?
It is an oddity that their bonuses don't really scale all that well.
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How about having racial levels like in Arcana Evolved? Take levels in said racial class and become more and more like a paragon of said race?
Having some sort of advanced racial abilities that 'show up later' could also work. Characters gain a feat every odd level, and an ability score bonus every fourth level, but that leaves some blank spaces at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th levels, in which one could gain advanced 'elfy-er' abilities or something.
How about having racial levels like in Arcana Evolved? Take levels in said racial class and become more and more like a paragon of said race?Having some sort of advanced racial abilities that 'show up later' could also work. Characters gain a feat every odd level, and an ability score bonus every fourth level, but that leaves some blank spaces at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th levels, in which one could gain advanced 'elfy-er' abilities or something.
exactly. There are ways to achieve this, and not drastically alter things.
Did the elf somehow lose his "elfness" in pursuuit of higher adventures?
Some of us are rather fond of the idea that racial differences are overcome over the levels rather than emphasised.
Did the elf somehow lose his "elfness" in pursuuit of higher adventures?Some of us are rather fond of the idea that racial differences are overcome over the levels rather than emphasised.
Precisely, which is why I said it is a matter of competing paradigms, or play preferences.
To you and yours, "race is overcome" works just fine. Realism, then, is not something that matters.
To me and mine, "race is genetics" and there is no getting past the fact that race x, just can do things that race y can not.
For a point of reference, in lord of the rings (films) you have Aragorn standing side by side with Legolas. Legolas can see like 3 miles away or something. (Scene on the mountain) the entire rest of the party can not see, or hear anything, but Legolas did - even before the birds spotted him. That is genetics to me. It is hard coded and it doesn't go away with higher levels. Another example - when traveling the mountain, everyone is slogging through deep snow ... except Legolas. He just hops up and walks over the same stuff e eryone else is struggling to deal with ... because he is an elf.
I am not saying the one is bad, or anything -.. just pointing out how, and why they are different.
For my part, I like the idea of using this system to "bake into" the race choice a racial ability progression. It will allow me to play in the style that suits me, and still let you play in yours.
Seriously - in NO WAY am I trying to put down a play style or preference here. Promise.
;-)
exactly. There are ways to achieve this, and not drastically alter things.How about having racial levels like in Arcana Evolved? Take levels in said racial class and become more and more like a paragon of said race?Having some sort of advanced racial abilities that 'show up later' could also work. Characters gain a feat every odd level, and an ability score bonus every fourth level, but that leaves some blank spaces at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th levels, in which one could gain advanced 'elfy-er' abilities or something.
But this runs the risk of forcing characters back into stereotypes. If the ratial abilities scale, then that means that those characters will always be better then everyone else at those things, and that if you dont care about those things those bonuses are wasted.
Lets say an elf gets a scaling bonus to perception. A high level elven rogue would then be far and away better at spotting traps then a human rogue. In addition, if you are say a fighter and you dont care about perception, then these bonuses which are now significant will be wasted for you. Sure its flavorful, but you will be driven towards say half orc who's bonuses might be in better line with hitting things with sharp things.
The reason that the game moved the stuff you get into feats, or classes (including paragon classes) was because flexibility is usually a good thing. If you want to be 'elfy' go ahead, be elfy, take the feats or paragon classes, but it will be at the expense of other things. And if you just want to be an elf but dont want to spend many of your mechanical bonuses on being 'elfy' you dont have to. This leads to the cleric not always being a dwarf and the wizard not always being an elf, and that is a good thing in my book.
Did the elf somehow lose his "elfness" in pursuuit of higher adventures?Some of us are rather fond of the idea that racial differences are overcome over the levels rather than emphasised.Precisely, which is why I said it is a matter of competing paradigms, or play preferences.
To you and yours, "race is overcome" works just fine. Realism, then, is not something that matters.
To me and mine, "race is genetics" and there is no getting past the fact that race x, just can do things that race y can not.
For a point of reference, in lord of the rings (films) you have Aragorn standing side by side with Legolas. Legolas can see like 3 miles away or something. (Scene on the mountain) the entire rest of the party can not see, or hear anything, but Legolas did - even before the birds spotted him. That is genetics to me. It is hard coded and it doesn't go away with higher levels. Another example - when traveling the mountain, everyone is slogging through deep snow ... except Legolas. He just hops up and walks over the same stuff e eryone else is struggling to deal with ... because he is an elf.
Actually in LOTR, elves are awesome superbeings superior to everyone else except gandalf in every way and we should all be in awe about how awesome they are. Seriously, lotr is a TERRIBLE example. Elves would be like a +2 level adjustment race in dnd terms. I somehow doubt you would want that built into the game?
This kind of system pushes characters into stereotypes, which is plain as day in lotr. I personally dont want to go back to the days when the classes are were elf and dwarf. Because that is the only reasonably fair way to 'bake' the abilities into the game.
Where as if you really want to be legolas in the current system you can, you just have to actually give stuff up to do it. You have to take feats and skill ranks, and you will be plenty like legolas, where as borimir will put feats and skills and classes into something else. The flexibility of the current system allows you to play the way you want to, you just dont want to have to give anything up to do it, which if permitted in my mind would be bad design, not the way it is now.
Again, let me preface this all with "I'm not trying to put down anyone's favorite play style."
Actually in LOTR, elves are awesome superbeings superior to everyone else except gandalf in every way and we should all be in awe about how awesome they are. Seriously, lotr is a TERRIBLE example. Elves would be like a +2 level adjustment race in dnd terms. I somehow doubt you would want that built into the game?
You're missing the point. It's not that "elves are WAY better +10,000!!!" It's that "race = race" and there IS a clear distinction.
For instance. Legolas has amazing senses ... yet his tracking is crap compared to Aragorn. The human is better in his niche through skill and dedication, where-as the elf is just ... being an elf. The relative power is 100% irrelevant to what I'm proposing because EVERY race would have a progression "baked into" character (not class) level progression period.
Stated another way, why is the elf a +2 LA race, when ALL races have inherent "raciness" options to them.
Hell, humans might just keep getting more and more sp's and feats (fast learners, right?). So, you're not understanding it fully if your trying to parse it into mechanics like you are.
To hit concerns of "irrelevant" in the previous post - how is it "irrelevant" that elves have amazing senses beyond other races? It *becomes* irrelevant if they get a +2 at level 1 and it never goes anywhere - EVER. It is meaningless of even a level 1 rouge can "out-elf the elf" on a racial "schtick" for the most part. It is also pretty meaningless, to me, if a rogue can out-sense the elf ... it's just not jiving with me. I don't care that the elf is a wizard, or a fighter - he's STILL an elf, and his heritage - for good or ill - sticks with him for the duration of his career.
You are still *as free* to take up whatever class/race combos and feats as you wanted. HOWEVER, rather than race being more a footnote, it takes on a dimension *as important* to shaping the character as class and level progression are. To me, it seems more natural to make racial "stuff" improve along with all the other elements that improve in a level-based system. It's just ... boring, and insignificant otherwise. Unless you get REALLY nuts and start with a 4e-line of development with a whole slew of race-specific powers and such (which makes me think of the racial feats that I'm also not a fan of). It's just too much effort, IMO, to develop that way when there's a perfectly reasonable and expected way to do it - ie: the level-based system of progression.
If you want to look at this and say you're "locked" into stereo types, then that's more your own limitation as nothing in the game says "elves must take X class/classes in combination." At most I'm suggesting that a level-based race progression be layered onto the existing system.
Let's not kid anyone about *why* Feats and Paragon classes were proposed to do this either, though. Feats and classes are put in as suggestions to make trade-offs, as you suggest, but ONLY for the purpose of not inflating the existing expected "power level" of the races.
What I propose, clearly, alters that. It alters it across the board for all PC races, though - not monsters.
It ups the power level, but so what? It provides a better experience to what *I* would expect to see if a racial makeup was that important and carried to a logical conclusion in a level-based system. It is easy enough to adjust things here and there according to the "much increased" power level.
:shrugs:
This kind of system pushes characters into stereotypes, which is plain as day in lotr. I personally dont want to go back to the days when the classes are were elf and dwarf. Because that is the only reasonably fair way to 'bake' the abilities into the game.
I don't want to go back to class = elf. But I'd also rather not lose sight of the significance of race, or "race = cosmetics" as the end goal. That, beyond pointy ears, is equally pointless and not all that satisfying on any level to me.
Where as if you really want to be legolas in the current system you can, you just have to actually give stuff up to do it. You have to take feats and skill ranks, and you will be plenty like legolas, where as borimir will put...
No - you can be Legolas (fighter), but you'll have to give up keeping pace with Gimli (dwarf w/no particular "dwarven stuff" on display) because while Legolas had to BUY his "racial features" through feats and Paragon Classes, Gimli just went full tilt Fighter.
{Note: above is just a comparison for convenience. It can be "generic elf character chasing feats and classes to be more "elfy" than others" vs. "any other race that stuck to 1 class and didn't care about his *race* at all." They are pretty interchangeable, so don't get hung up on it.}
Again, NOT saying there's anything wrong with playing it one way or the other. However, I'm looking at this system and immediately thinking that a "price" can be assigned to races beyond just "level 1" and you just keep lumping in whatever you want the full race to have, but then spread the stuff out over different levels.
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I personally want it to hit a sweet spot where all of the difference race/class combinations feel different, yet one isn't vastly superior.
So a dwarf wizard and elf wizard will play differently but one won't completely pass by the other. One can be "better" and that's alright, I don't think the flavor of the game should suffer so long as the imbalances don't become crippling.
It's nice to start off with your character sheet and pick a class and then consider the race and what differences it will make in the life of the character and how it will shape their background.
I understand what you want with your whole Legolas argument, but personally I disagree.
I want a human, dwarf or whatever be able to pursue an adventuring career and not at the end of the day say 'I wish I'd been an elf'.
If an elf gets +1/2 level to perception, then there's hardly much point in specialising in perception if you're not an elf. It's so much cheaper and easier just to be an elf, unless you specifically need another race's ability for something necessary.
Or giving up any plans of being a non-dwarf tank fighter because dwarves get +1/2 level to CMD or AC or something. Nothing else compares.
That reinforces stereotypes and stymies creative portrayal of members of races in different ways.
This is also because the other races are out there in the world and the party is often competing against them (often violently). If you don't have an elf playing like a stereotypical elf, you'll be snuck up on an appropriate level goblin assassin (using the above idea, +1/2 level to stealth) almost every time without fail, as very little can approach the degree of bonus that a race provides.
I personally want it to hit a sweet spot where all of the difference race/class combinations feel different, yet one isn't vastly superior.
Yes - let's be clear on my end.
What you write is more or less the "sweet spot" I am dreaming about anyway.
If it's TOO obviously good/powerful/whatever, then it's just emphasizing too much of element X of race Y's makeup, IMO.
Instead, I'd much rather see exactly what you say. Race X of Class Y, and Race Z of class Y play similarly, but still have racial differences that influence both play and character.
Nothing on 4e's level mind you, but something to make it more than just a pure "background" that it more or less is currently.
It's just a thought anyway.
:shrugs:
EDIT: Just saw umbral's post, and no WAY would I want to see "+1/2 level to X" as posited. That's WAY too much.
It's just something to nudge and emphasize "hey - this race is *good* at this stuff" not "don't bother if you're not this race."
You're worried about things *I* certainly would not even allow into existence and jumping to extremes.
Mechanically, I wouldn't do that.
EDIT #2: A quick example. Elf gets Perception boons every few levels, and caps out at say a +6 to Perception period. This is somehting that's doled out over time (several levels) and constantly reminds you "hey - elves have good senses." That's pretty much the extent of it. We'll make him a wizard, too (to keep the same example earlier).
Then, you got a human rogue. He's got all kinds of extra skill points and extra feats (again -sticking with the proposed human set above because they "learn fast" and such). He'll have MANY more feats than the elf-wizard, and he'll probably have WAY more skill points in general. Say he maxes out his perception score constantly - he may well be able to surpass the elf-wizard's +6 for nothing (assuming the wizard isn't putting his own sp's into it - this is the case stated where the "bonus to x doesn't matter to the concept" that Kolo put forth). That is a class skill for the rogue, so he's at a +3 (already closed about 1/2 of the elf's lead), and he's got extra feats, so if he wants to specialize and dedicate, he takes say Skill focus, and he'll be getting an additional +3 and later +6 - so he can still surpass a "lazy" elf, BUT at the same time, that higher-level elf is still feeling like his "elfness" matters. Follow?
None of that is game-breaking of uber-unbalanced. It's just different and the race choice has a more significant impact to the character.
Now, if you want to compare an elf rogue to a human rogue, the elf rogue's ALWAYS going to out-perform on perception ... but that's because he's an elf (assuming the same feats are taken for comparison as both are interested in Perception scores). That feels right - elves are just better in senses. HOWEVER, the human rogue brings versatility and raw talent to the table in the form of more skill points by far (so MORE skills than what the elf can bring to bear - even an elf-rogue, mind you), and he has more feats going on than the elf can ever achieve. EVER.
Again - they're just different in how they play out and feel, not unbalanced to each other, OR stuck to one particular niche or livelihood (ie: class).
Then it's about fine as is. A plus two to a skill or so here, minor abilities there. An elf that maxes perception will still have a perception score 10% better than a human's (on the d20 roll), but an elf that is lax about perception can easily be surpassed with a few ranks. And even then, there's no easy way to get a special vision mode like low-light vision
Then it's about fine as is. A plus two to a skill or so here, minor abilities there. An elf that maxes perception will still have a perception score 10% better than a human's (on the d20 roll), but an elf that is lax about perception can easily be surpassed with a few ranks.
Not enough. You know full well how crazy-high DC's can get in this system.
"+2, and no more ever" does nothing to help with that.
I'm fairly happy with that. I don't want things to get to the point where the party is saying, 'crap, we should have brought an elf'.
I've considered doubling racial skill bonuses at 10th level, to mirror Skill Focus and Alertness, myself.
But I wouldn't go any further than that.
Do you also give races with no skill bonuses something at 10th?
Stuff about racial bonuses to skills that increases with levels
Instead of adding 1/2 their level to their skill, maybe they should get a free rank to that skill and that skill alone; they can apply the rest of their ranks to other areas and that rank is just auto-slotted. That way, if a human puts ranks into perception, the human will still be as competent compared to an elf of the same level, it's just that the elf is competent in it naturally. That of course really only works with skills, and you'd have to give the human something more to make up for such a thing.
Choice of race should have as much impact on a character, at every point in their career, as choice of class. There should be as much difference between a Dwarf Fighter and a Human Fighter as there is between a Dwarf Fighter and a Human Barbarian.
Granting racial bonuses on "dead" levels is one way to accomplish this, along with having a stronger emphasis on favored classes and racial paragon classes. The game lost a lot of flavor, in my opinion, when they transitioned from demihumans as classes in AD&D and then when they abolished racial class restrictions in 3e. Ironically, Paizo actually improved on this when they abolished favored class by race-- and then gave every race alternate favored class bonuses for different classes.
Choice of race should have as much impact on a character, at every point in their career, as choice of class. There should be as much difference between a Dwarf Fighter and a Human Fighter as there is between a Dwarf Fighter and a Human Barbarian.
I could never stand for such a thing, but to each their own. As it stands, a system that does not impose this upon the players leaves room for a modular 'race is more important' modification more easily. One that imposes this view by default is far more difficult to dislodge for those that don't want it.
I could never stand for such a thing, but to each their own. As it stands, a system that does not impose this upon the players leaves room for a modular 'race is more important' modification more easily. One that imposes this view by default is far more difficult to dislodge for those that don't want it.
If race is such an unimportant choice, why is it there in the first place?
I feel that there is enough difference between the races, though I suppose the difference peeters out as you increase in levels.
Try these experiments with a group of different races at different levels.
Cast sleep on them all.
Fill the room with poisonous fumes.
Turn off the lights.
Only permit them two hours sleep for a few days.
Let's not attack these ideas specifically, you get my drift. I don't really wanna open the CRB and the APG and go through all the racial 'bonuses.'
I know our group will drop comments like, "Wish we'd brought a dwarf" when faced with a stonework issue.
Suffice it to say that I think the difference are there in the mechanics, and it does make a difference, and it does seem to 'disappear' as the progress through the levels.
The real differences 'should' come through role-play - though I have played in a group where the PC of a male player was female. We went through four levels before the rest of us learned of this. Mention that your character is an elf, at least. Describe how your dwarf would rather a stone chair. Make a climb check for your gnome to climb the bar stool - just for the fun and role-play of it. File you half-Orc tusks. Comb your Halfling feet.
Just as you would read through your Spellbook, sharpen your daggers, adjust your armour, polish your holy symbol etc.
If race is such an unimportant choice, why is it there in the first place?
Roleplay?
Sure. Just like with Human ethnicities. I'm not opposed to the existence of different non-Human fantasy races in D&D, I'm just increasingly disappointed that they're all so much alike-- especially when there's five or six varieties of each of them.
I liked that in D&D demihumans got classes of their own. I liked that in AD&D, demihumans had different class and archetype (kit) options, even if I didn't care for the specific implementation. The trend now seems to be making them more and more homogenous, and I think that trend is sucking the meaning out of the entire concept.
Personally, I try to work progressive bonuses into my races to reinforce 'stereotypes' in RP. If this is given a value in the system, I see no problem.
Rules-wise, races should matter as much as they do now. Penalizing a player for playing race X+ class Y instead of race X + class FavoriteX is an unnecessary restriction that won't fit the image that 50% of the player base has about race X.
Emphasis mine in italics above, but that really is the key divide.
Those of us saying "make race different" are pointedly NOT saying it's a penalty to not be race X. It's only a penalty if you're stuck in #'s crunch mode. There have been a number of interesting suggestions so far that would certainly add to racial distinctions and NOT (a) sacrifice Feats (b) sacrifice class levels, and (c) aren't purely about "+ WAY more #'s than everyone else" in nature.
Again, I refer you to the hypothetical I put forth earlier where the Elf just gains Perception bonuses over time (ie: levels), but it's maybe like a +6 by the end. All elves, period. Now, an uninvested elf will only have that and "feel" different enough mechanically.
A different character (like a Rogue) can pick up Skill Focus: Perception and make up that difference, too. He can also pick up one of the +2/+4 gain of 2 skill combos for that, too (Alertness maybe? Name's escaping me at the moment). So, the "focused" rogue can actually be better at higher levels and with enough investment than "just an elf" but the "elf" still his a racial identity/heritage flavor going on.
Of *course* if you go Rogue (non-elf) to Rogue (elf) the elven Rogue will be better given the same feats ... then again, the elven Rogue may well not decide that he needs Skill Focus due to his racial heritage and wants a different feat instead.
:shrugs:
Point being - it's NOT about #'s in this camp. It's about feel and setting a tone that is more significant than the one that currently exists.