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I've got a character that's taking 5 levels of Paladin, then doing a 4 level dip into Shadow Dancer, then switching back to Paladin.
So, I'll be getting a Rogue talent at character level 8.
I will not have any Sneak Attack dice.
I won't be taking Shadowdancer past level 9 in all likelhood - the hit on BAB is too great.
What Rogue Talent would you recommend?
Character stats:
STR 15 [7], DEX 14+2 [5], CON 12 [2], INT 11 [1], WIS 10 [0], CHA 14 [5]
Traits: Armor Training, Vagabond Child (Disable Device is Class, Sleight of Hand and Disable Device get +1)
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack. Feats at 3rd and 5th will be Dodge and Mobility.
4th level stat bump to STR
8th level stat bump to INT for buckets of skill ranks.
Character is human. Character is for PFS play, so effectively retires at 12th level.
combat trick, then pick your favorite combat feat, keep going down the mobility path if you like.
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What's your perception? Trapspotter is always nice...at the very least, it tips you off.
Esoteric Scholar might actually be decent for society play.
I was thinking Weapon Training for weapon focus or
Combat trick Lunge or spring attack
Greg
EDIT or maybe even combat patrol *shrugs* It is too darn bad you can't teach your shadow teamwork feats. >.<
Interesting suggestions. Thank you, all!
I became very sad to read that Lunge doesn't help with Combat Reflexes.
You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.
AoOs aren't done on your turn.
Were you suggesting Lunge as an expansion of Combat Reflexes, Greg? Combat Patrol is an interesting suggestion as well.
By the time I get the Rogue Talent, Perception will be a class skill, and I'll be swimming in Skill points, so Trapfinder is a good bet. Thanks, Cheapy.
I'm figuring that having a BAB of +7/+2 at 8th level means I can use a Rogue Talent for something that's a bit less...directly combat optimized.
Are any of the other Rogue Talents worth looking at?
Interesting suggestions. Thank you, all!
I became very sad to read that Lunge doesn't help with Combat Reflexes.
You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.
AoOs aren't done on your turn.
Were you suggesting Lunge as an expansion of Combat Reflexes, Greg? Combat Patrol is an interesting suggestion as well.
Yes, yes I was. I misread Lunge. Thought it lasted until your next turn...demmit. No one in my group has picked it up and not a feat that was useful to any of my characters so really wasn't that familiar with it. Well...the more I know.. the more my players have fun!
As for more um fluffy feats ( as opposed to stabby :P )...how about a brief bio/CV/background on this shadowdancin' pally. Concept seems pretty neat for a build.
Greg
Charmer could be useful for when you have to explain why your Paladin has a few undead things following it around doing your every beck and call.
Combat Trick is always solid.
Trapspotter gives you Trap-dar! And with your awesome saves and high HP, you can just walk right up to traps without too much fear.
Honeyed Words for the same reason of Charmer.
Ki Pool will open up taking Ninja Tricks by using Extra Rogue Talents. Shadow Clone could be fun (and thematic!). Or maybe Ki Charge! Charge up your holy symbols, and chuck 'em at your enemies!
Minor Magic to get any sort of fun utility cantrips. Mage Hand can be quite useful, and there's nothing quite like turning someone's rear brown with Prestidigitation.
Here's the character's build sheet:
For those too lazy to follow the links and click on spoiler tags, here's her story in her words. Note that the latter part of this discusses two PFS scenarios: Frosfur Captives and Infernal Vault; they're behind Spoiler tags just to prevent accidental spoilage.
"You recall the night-gaunt infestation of AR 4707? I was 15 then. My father and mother and younger brother and I, we traveled as itinerant locksmiths and tinkers, from city to city, spending at most a season in any one as we made our rounds, overwintering primarily in Cheliax."
"Some lordling or other - I never found out whom - got bettered, or humbled, or humiliated in some stupid social soiree. And got his revenge by setting a plague of night-gaunts loose on his rival. Regrettably, my family and I were camped on the woods near the estate - we'd just revamped their locks. My father was turned, my brother driven mad and into the spears of the desperate house guards, and my mother - the less said, the better. Only I kept my wits about me, and it is a miracle that I was left alive."
"I dug the graves of my family with this." she said, holding the gravedigger's pickaxe. "And spoke the words of Pharasma, to reassure their spirits of what was to come - or to bide my time and come to some purpose." Her face lights up in an almost pacific expression. Almost.
"She told me I had a purpose, and it was to help end the taint of undead and others of ill nature on this land. That my mission was to deliver Her message to those who would deny her. To hunt those who haunt the darkness."
"I sold my family's belongings where I could, booked passage to Absalom, and joined the Pathfinders, for additional training."
"When we were betrayed by those setting up our mission at the end, I was able to keep others from killing those who betrayed us, so that they could meet justice at the hands of the law, not through a circle of blood feuds. I was also able to help secure river passage, and made sure that some doors that would've been closed to us were opened."
"My companions were a bit surprised at my facility with locks. I explained that people get locked out of their homes all the time, and forget their keys."
"From this, I bought a better set of tools for opening locks, matching those my father had when I was younger, and replaced my armor. The Silver Crusade granted me a wand of Cure Light Wounds."
She pauses, to pat the brooch of Pharasma on her tabard. "While all eventually face Her judgement, it is good not to send those to Her too hastily."
"I used my proceeds to replace the head of the pick axe I dug my parents graves with with mithril, the better to deal with undead, lycanthropes and devils in the darkness. Having seen the effectiveness of an oil of Bless Weapon, I asked the Silver Crusade to provide me with a wand of that spell for future needs."
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Okay,
Great story. Would love for her to be in game I play in or one I run. Nice concept..sad story.
Thematic choices( drawin blanks...for some reason rogue talents and paladin feats don't seem to overlap much :P )
Fast Picks- heck, it is her family legacy.
Minor Magic- disrupt undead (horrible choice mechanically but ...)
Feats based on skill choices
Charmer - as Cheapy said and you have Diplomacy.
Hard to Fool- you have sense motive...and sometimes it is REALLY important to make that roll.
Fast Stealth- cuz, its nice not to crawl when bein stealthy
Strong Impression- if you ever pick up intimidate you'd be great.
oddballs (just tossin' stuff out there)
Positioning Attack- being able to maneuver around a foe after hitting him once a day... could be important once or twice in her life
ninja>ki pool- extra 10' of movement once a day ( and cheapy had some good suggestions with this too, but your wis isn't gonna give you many points)
old standards
weapon training +1 to hit (boring I know,but ...)
combat trick combat patrol takes advantage of your combat reflexes and seems like a fun feat.
Good luck, I will be favoriting this character to keep reading her adventures...so um DON'T DIE!!
Greg
I think combat trick's the way to go if you're looking for maximum effectiveness as a character. One talent does not a rogue make.
Greg, do you ever play PFS Online via TTopRPG?
Or at conventions?
I'd be happy to bring Agda out if we're playing at the same con. (I've also got a few other well-realized PFS characters in my profile.)
It'll be another 22 sessions before I really have to decide on what Rogue Talent to take.
I agree with your sorting on thema:
Here's the short list of what I'm considering:
Trap Spotter - no, I don't have Trapfinder, but actual Rogues with the actual Trapfinding talent are bloody rare in PFS...at least SPOTTING them can be useful. Plus, hey, I can always attempt to Disable them. By the time I get this talent (character level 8), I'll have a Perception check of +6 to +11 or so.
Ledge Walker - Acrobatics will become a class skill when I pick up Shadowdancer, and this is thematic for it. Plus, synergizes with Uncanny Dodge nicely.
Fast Stealth - PFS makes Stealth hard to use; Stealth kind of requires "me time" from the GM, which is a rare commodity in a PFS scenario trying to run five encounters plus setup in four hours. However, it does synergize nicely with Hide in Plain Sight, and later, Shadow Jump.
Fast Picks - it is thematic. I've never yet seen a situation where a standard action Disable Device check would materially improve over a full round action one in a PFS scenario.
Hard to Fool - This is more useful in a regular game than PFS, where I can always call upon my tee shirt for a die roll when I need one. :)
Resiliency - This is a little more crunchy than thematic, but it provides a way to survive a nasty critical hit and buy time to do a Lay On Hands.
Combat Trick - Paladins are feat starved...both Combat Patrol and Spring Attack are useful...as is Weapon Focus (Pick Axe). Or Improved Sunder.
Greg, do you ever play PFS Online via TTopRPG?
Or at conventions?
I'd be happy to bring Agda out if we're playing at the same con. (I've also got a few other well-realized PFS characters in my profile.)
and sorry, no, not at this time. Private home play for both my games. Though, two of us are discussing PFS possibilities. Time constraints just seem to worsen the older we get.
Also, sorry for late reply. lost the thread. >.<
Greg
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Greg, do you ever play PFS Online via TTopRPG?
Or at conventions?
I'd be happy to bring Agda out if we're playing at the same con. (I've also got a few other well-realized PFS characters in my profile.)
and sorry, no, not at this time. Private home play for both my games. Though, two of us are discussing PFS possibilities. Time constraints just seem to worsen the older we get.
Also, sorry for late reply. lost the thread. >.<
Greg
We periodically meet for PFS play via TTopRPG and Skype on Sundays. Agda is still 1st level, so there's room for you to start at the same level if you'd like to play with her as an adventuring companion.
(Dangles temptation on a string. See the shiny! Play with the shiny! You want the shiny!)
Agda has had her third mission completed, and is now level 2.
She got to be sneaky with the ninja and use disable device.
And, best of all, nobody died on either side during the adventure.
Appario sees Semenya studying him closely....*too* closely and gets worried.
Your character reminds me of Shadowbane (Kalen) from the Forgotten Realms book Downshadow. You might want to check it out. He's a very rogue-ish paladin and might be a nice architype to base yours off of.
Appario sees Semenya studying him closely....*too* closely and gets worried.
Playing with Appario in CoT is what eventually caused this character concept to gel.
It started with thinking about a Paladin of Pharasma; seeing you do a very non-traditional Paladin made the rest of it fit together.
I'm contemplating Sidestep and Improved Sidestep. Opinions on them versus Wind Stance and Lightning Stance.
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Since you've plunked down for both Combat Reflexes and Power Attack, and are a class which can dish out numeric bonuses to damage, might I suggest a polearm with an extended threat range?
I.e., EWP:Fauchard, followed by Stand Still.
(It's too feat-intensive for a paladin, but that combination becomes particularly hideous in combination with the Whirlwind Attack chain: Bad guys try to run past you to reach the squishes; you make them stop; WHOOOOSHHH!)
Standstill is adjacent only.
I would recommend taking “ninja trick” then choosing the ninja trick “rogue talent” and with that choose the rogue talent you want. That way it kind of looks like you have 3 talents for the price of one. ;P
Any opinions on Sidestep and Improved Sidestep versus Wind Stance and Lightning Stance?
Especially if I go with Positioning Strike as the Rogue talent?
Agda's fourth mission for the Society is now on her character sheet.
I've had it suggested that I try the following progression for her levels:
Paladin 1
Paladin 2
Rogue 1
Rogue 2
Paladin 3
Paladin 4
Paladin 5
Rogue 3
Rogue 4
Shadowdancer 1
Shadowdancer 2
Shadowdancer 3
The justification is that Rogue gets me bushels of skill points (9 per level) and opens up a lot more skills for that tasty +3 for Class bonuses.
Plus, with actual sneak attack damage, about 20-25% of the Rogue talents actually become worth taking.
The current progression I have in mind is this:
Paladin 1
Paladin 2
Paladin 3
Paladin 4
Paladin 5
Shadowdancer 1
Shadowdancer 2
Shadowdancer 3
Shadowdancer 4
Paladin 6
Paladin 7
Paladin 8
Though I'm not sold on the last 3 Paladin levels.
Resiliency - This is a little more crunchy than thematic, but it provides a way to survive a nasty critical hit and buy time to do a Lay On Hands.
This. Crit happens. Fits nicely with the idea that the character is a survivor, and makes LOH that much better for you. "Brink of death? Not quite!"
Nice synergy with either build. Last one standing wins!
Agda's fifth mission for the Society is now on her character sheet
It's a long writeup. Needs banjo music.
Agda's Sixth and Seventh missions for the Society are now on her character sheet from playing at Winter War 39, for the people who were looking forward to the writeups.
DO NOT READ the Seventh Mission if you haven't played Blood Under Absalom!
Im with the people saying Combat Patrol, it is a lot of fun...
If not the Resiliency would be my second choice.
Can you explain why Combat Patrol is a lot of fun? Please describe how you use it!
I'm having a lot of fun with Lunge with my PFS fighter.
For 7th level I'm considering Spring Attack as her normal feat; the thinking is that with Hide in Plain Sight I may be able to Spring Attack from concealment and return to concealment...at the cost of my iteratives. Lunge is, honestly, much more likely.
By the time she gets the Rogue Talent, she'll have a Perception skill of either +13 or +18 if she gets Eyes of Seeing, as I applied the Trained Eyes boon to her.
I don't know if that's enough to make Trap Sense and the ability to automatically roll if I come within 10' useful enough. I'm not sure I'm willing to burn my 7th level feat on Skill Focus (Perception) to bump that up further.
Agda's Ninth Mission is up on her write-up. This is more fictional than the others, because I GM'd the scenario rather than played it, but wrote it based on the events at the table.
Agda's Tenth and Eleventh Missions are on her write-up. The Tenth mission is somewhat fictionalized because I GM'd the scenario rather than played it.
Agda's Twelfth Mission is now on her writeup.
Agda's Thirteenth Mission is now on her writeup. She's now stranded in the Demiplane of Shadow (I've worked out how to get her back with the GM of the next module I'm playing, the Mirrors of Midnight, which I'll get partial credit for.)
I expect to have 8 ranks, +2 from a boon, +3 from class skill, and +5 from an item by 8th level. I may also have +1 from Wisdom by then, for +19. So, it's in the realm of possibility. It's not like Perception is useless otherwise.
The character just hit 6th level, so has her first level of Shadowdancer, so I've got 5-6 more games before I have to decide.
Stealth is at +17 with Hide in Plain Sight within 10' of dim light or shadows.
Right now, I'm waffling over her 7th and 9th level feats. Conceivably, I could take Alertness and Skill Focus (Perception), which would get her to +25 at 9th, and +31 at 10th.
Or I could go Greater Mercy at 7th to reinforce her Lay on Hands ability.
Or I could take Cosmopolitan, pick up two more languages, pick up two INT/CHA/WIS based skills (likely Knowledge (Planes) and Use Magic Device).
Or I could go Sidestep and Friendly Switch for doing clever things with movement. :)
Agda's mission reports are now here. This now includes her account of a long sojourn in the Plane of Shadow, and her return. I'm still typing up her sixteenth and seventeenth missions, so more will be added.
She's now 8th level, and I took Positioning Attack
Positioning Attack - 1x/day she can move up to 30' after successfully attacking a creature without provoking an attack of opportunity. She must remain in the creature's threatened range. This does not consume any of her "normal" movement.
It seems to synergize nicely with both Mobility and Hide in Plain Sight. For the most part, her Hide in Plain Sight has proven useful for being able to heal people without being interrupted.