So I've been working on a claw-based fighter, and have ended up with lots of rules questions that have started many threads (like "A flurry of claws") and I've got a question now on basic game comprehension:
I've been looking at the Monk vs the Unarmed Fighter archetype, and I've just got to ask if I'm missing something.
The Monk gets:
1. Flurry of blows (free two-weapon fighting feats),
2. A better stunning fist than anyone else,
3. Increased base fist-damage,
4. The ability to make as many sunders, disarms, trips and other Combat Maneuvers as he has strikes in his flurry of blows,
5. Increased base speed
6. Increased AC
The unarmed fighter gets... nothing. Improved grappling, a highter to-hit (though not much, as a Monk's flurry follows a fighter's BAB) but that's really not much.
At level 20, A monk is making 7 2d10 attacks, has a speed of 90, has an AC of 10 +5 +wis +dex +any magic, can make 7 Combat Maneuvers a round by trading out some Flurry-blows (if he's taken the Improved Combat Maneuver feats, that's a powerful freakin' bit of stuff to do to someone) and of course has his crazy ki, stunning and quivering attacks.
At level 20, an unarmed fighter still makes unarmed attacks at 1d2. He can use monk weapons and do 1d6, and has a little extra to-hit and damage from his weapon mastery, but not much. He can get 7 attacks if he gets two-weapon fighting, and can get armor if he takes the armor feats (since he only starts with light armor) but then he's still at a movement of 20 ft with that bulky armor and has used up a lot of his extra fighters feats just trying to mimic what a Monk gets for free.
An unarmed fighter can get better Combat Maneuver feats with his extra fighter feats, but he can't use more than one a round. He can grapple better, but a Monk can do their improved unarmed damage during a grapple, so that's still not better. They have damage resistance to non-lethal, but how many people are attacking a level 19 fighter with non-lethal damage?
Am I missing something here? Is there any redeeming factors in choosing an unarmed fighter that I'm just misunderstanding? Maybe something in the rules I just don't get? Thematically, unarmed fighters seem so much more realistic than Monks as far as their game mechanics go and so would fit better in some campaign settings, but I can't in good conscience take or expect someone to take unarmed fighter when they're just so under-powered. What do you think?
To be fair, sunder, trip and disarm always could be made in place of an attack.
So, it's not a monk only thing.
You get 2-Weapon faster than a monk. It will probably be harder for a monk to escape your grapple. You will deal more damage. More HP.
If you have Natural attacks from some source, you can add them to your attacks without need of spending 2 feats on it :)
But to go unnarmed against a monk is already a crazy idea.
That's why you compare the monk to the brawler fighter, not the unarmed fighter. The UAF is terrible but the BF is awesome. Also, the monk isn't doing nearly as much damage because the fighter gets more and more bonuses to damage from class features and feats. you have more attacks, but the DPR olympics show the fighter still winning out.
How do you deal more damage? The unarmed fighter's unarmed damage doesn't increase like a monks, or so I understand it.
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The unarmed fighter gets... nothing. Improved grappling, a highter to-hit (though not much, as a Monk's flurry follows a fighter's BAB) but that's really not much.
You mean, except the +6 to attack and damage with Gloves of Duelist, that go to +8 attack/+10 damage with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization tree ? The fact he has one feat per level ? The DR 10/- when he is "grappled" (which happens every time he is grappling someone) ? All the attacks of opportunity it's enemies provoke each time he succeeds in a combat maneuver, and all the penalties he applies to his victims ? Being able to wear armors ? D10 HDs ?
When your fighter is doing (assuming 18 starting strength + 4 from leveling + 2 inherent + 6 from belt ; +5 att/dam from amulet of mighty fists, +6 att/dam from Weapon Training, so normal gear for level 20 => +10 Str +6 WT +5 Enh +2 WT = +23 Att, not including Boots of haste or any Style feat increasing damage) :
+20/+15/+10/+5
+43/+38/+33/+28
(Power Attack : -6/+12)
+37/+32/+26/+22
=> 1d3+37 (Average 38)
When at the same time you could have a monk with almost the same equipment :
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
+33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18
(Power Attack : -6/+12)
+27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17/+13
=> 2d10+27 (Average 38)
By going full TWFing, the fighter still hits way more than the monk = +35/+35/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20.
The two classes are different. Monk offers cool powers and possibilities, fighter offers weapon training and making your enemies cry. In no way is the later sub-par to the monk.
At level 20, A monk is making 7 2d10 attacks, has a speed of 90, has an AC of 10 +5 +wis +dex +any magic, can make 7 Combat Maneuvers a round by trading out some Flurry-blows (if he's taken the Improved Combat Maneuver feats, that's a powerful freakin' bit of stuff to do to someone) and of course has his crazy ki, stunning and quivering attacks.
At level 20, an unarmed fighter still makes unarmed attacks at 1d2. He can use monk weapons and do 1d6, and has a little extra to-hit and damage from his weapon mastery, but not much. He can get 7 attacks if he gets two-weapon fighting, and can get armor if he takes the armor feats (since he only starts with light armor) but then he's still at a movement of 20 ft with that bulky armor and has used up a lot of his extra fighters feats just trying to mimic what a Monk gets for free.
Generally, I also prefer the brawler for unarmed fighting. The unarmed fighter is, ironically, better with other monk weapons - such as the seven-bladed sword, three-section staff, and all the other weird exotic stuff.
But you know what, let's compare the monk to the regular fighter in the areas you mentioned:
- attack: the fighter wins, due to weapon training, and being able to use their full BAB even if they don't do a full attack.
- damage: a monk's base unarmed damage at level 20 is 2d10, average of 11. A fighter's base unarmed damage would be 1d3 (not 1d2, unless it's a small fighter), ergo average of 2 + 4 (weapon training) + 4 (weapon specialization/greater weapon specialization), so 10. Not a big difference, especially as the fighter (being less reliant wisdom) will likely be able to afford better strength from the start. The fighter will, however, find it cheaper to get magical bonuses by using brass knuckles (the monk is unarmed, so there is no difference regarding the other slots if the fighter uses them or not). Oh, and power attack is keyed off your BAB, which means a fighter can sacrifice more attack for more damage. That's ok, the fighter already has more attack. And I notice someone mentioned gloves of the duelist... while I don't like to bring slotted items into it, it is a good point.
- stunning fist: meh. It's not bad against, say, wizards and the like, but the fighter has enough feats for SF not to be a big issue.
- increased base speed: true. Then again, it's an enhancement bonus, so it doesn't stack with any magical items or effects that grant enhancement bonuses.
- increased AC - that is imo a problem for the unarmed fighter. A "regular" fighter who is wearing mithral full plate without armor check penalty, +7 max dexterity bonus and moving at full speed with it may beg to differ. Especially if the fighter is actually, say, carrying a shield (brawlers can do that especially well, but all fighters can do it decently - shields count as close weapons) and using it to bash.
The Monk gets:
1. Flurry of blows (free two-weapon fighting feats),
2. A better stunning fist than anyone else,
3. Increased base fist-damage,
4. The ability to make as many sunders, disarms, trips and other Combat Maneuvers as he has strikes in his flurry of blows,
5. Increased base speed
6. Increased AC
1. Actually, It's Two-Weapon Fighting, the follow-ups, and Double Slice (to get full str damage for each attack).
The fighter, on the other hand, can get those feats earlier then the monk gets the extra attacks. And he gets full BAB even on single attacks, not just when he makes a full attack or uses combat manoeuvres. And he gets the full BAB on CMD without a Feat.
2. True.
3. True.
4. False. The monk doesn't get any extra abilities pertaining to combat manoeuvres. There is a specific archetype in Ultimate Combat that replaces flurry of blows with what is effectively flurry of manoeuvres, but the regular monk cannot use combat manoeuvres as attack actions that are normally standard actions!
5. True. Generally, the monk enjoys a great deal of mobility (with increased speed, later insane jump checks, and later still dimension doors as move actions - and if you get the dimensional feats, he can go really wild with abundant step!)
6. Maybe. The monk does get his wisdom bonus to his AC, and a level-dependant bonus on top of that! His flat-footed and touch ACs are definitely very nice!
7. You forgot better saves and a few other resistances and immunities
The unarmed fighter gets... nothing. Improved grappling, a highter to-hit (though not much, as a Monk's flurry follows a fighter's BAB) but that's really not much.
First of all, that's not nothing. And second, that's by far not all he gets! Here are things the fighter gets:
A: Real full BAB. I mentioned it under 1 above, but I want to repeat and expand on it: The fighter's BAB is equal to his level in all matters. That means he gets it when he makes a full attack, when he makes a single attack after a move, when he makes combat manoeuvres, when he defends against manoeuvres, when he selects new feats.
It's nice to have a speed of OVER NINE THOUSAND (;-)), but after that, the monk will only get one attack, at his crappier attack bonus.
B: Better HD. It's d10 rather than d8, which nets you one extra HP per level on average.
C: More feats than the monk, and access to really nice stuff the monk can never get, or maybe later than the monk (because they're fighter only, because they have a BAB requirement, and so on.)
D: Much better attack and damage bonuses. Sure, the unarmed fighter will be stuck with the 1d3 for unarmed strikes or maybe something from the monk weapons. However, since he isn't bound to unarmed strike and their damage progression, he can just go and get a magic weapon or two. Maybe just two magic gauntlets, or only one (screw two-weapon fighting). Alternately, he can get monk's robes and have a half-decent unarmed strike base damage.
And beyond that, he can get Weapon Focus/Specialisation and Greater versions of both, automatically gets Weapon Training for an extra damage bonus, and his Power Attack will have a higher yield (see A: Real full BAB).
In the end, the monk's base bonuses will not really matter - it's likely that the fighter's attacks are more accurate and devastating!
E: Light armour. Won't help against touch, true, but if we're just talking critters that want to hit you, armour does help. The fighter can start with a chain shirt and later get celestial armour or at least elven chain. That's a +4 and later +6 base armour bonus the monk just can't have! And maybe the fighter will take up Combat Expertise (it's useful for him, anyway, because of several feat chains that are based off it and that improve combat manoeuvres).
And unlike the monk, the fighter can opt to go with heavier armour. It will just cost a feat or two. What it won't cost is most class abilities.
F: A lot less ability scores to commit to. A monk will need some strength, some dexterity, constitution of course, wisdom is very important, and if you want stuff like greater trip (very nice), you'll need a little intelligence (13) because you can't pick it up as a bonus feat and thus have to get all the regular prerequisites.
The fighter will go Strength, some Dex, some Con, and the base necessity in Intelligence for said Combat Expertise and follow-ups. He can all but ignore wis (and cha, of course, but that's the same as monk). That means the fighter will probably be stronger, more agile or tougher than the monk (or all three). All that helps with a lot of stuff and touches upon almost everything.
G: All those nice combat manoeuvre extras the Unarmed Fighter archetype grants, like clever wrestler (which sounds extremely useful!) and all those combo deals where you make one combat manoeuvre and get to make another kind of combat manoeuvre for free, like going for the eyes, boo!, of a grappled enemy.
In the end, the fighter should be better if you want to do raw damage and just crush enemies (and, thanks to the extras his archetypes provides, he's hands down better at certain combat manoeuvres), while the monk, as always, has a better, well-rounded defensive suit and mobility (that unfortunately does not mesh perfectly with his offensive).
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The unarmed fighter gets... nothing. Improved grappling, a highter to-hit (though not much, as a Monk's flurry follows a fighter's BAB) but that's really not much.You mean, except the +6 to attack and damage with Gloves of Duelist, that go to +8 attack/+10 damage with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization tree ? The fact he has one feat per level ? The DR 10/- when he is "grappled" (which happens every time he is grappling someone) ? All the attacks of opportunity it's enemies provoke each time he succeeds in a combat maneuver, and all the penalties he applies to his victims ? Being able to wear armors ? D10 HDs ?
When your fighter is doing (assuming 18 starting strength + 4 from leveling + 2 inherent + 6 from belt ; +5 att/dam from amulet of mighty fists, +6 att/dam from Weapon Training, so normal gear for level 20 => +10 Str +6 WT +5 Enh +2 WT = +23 Att, not including Boots of haste or any Style feat increasing damage) :
+20/+15/+10/+5
+43/+38/+33/+28
(Power Attack : -6/+12)
+37/+32/+26/+22=> 1d3+37 (Average 38)
When at the same time you could have a monk with almost the same equipment :
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
+33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18
(Power Attack : -6/+12)
+27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17/+13=> 2d10+27 (Average 38)
By going full TWFing, the fighter still hits way more than the monk = +35/+35/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20.
The two classes are different. Monk offers cool powers and possibilities, fighter offers weapon training and making your enemies cry. In no way is the later sub-par to the monk.
So...how is your fighter going to go "full TWFing" if he starts with a 20 STR? You need a 19 DEX to hit Greater Two Weapon Fighting, or at least a 17 for Imp TWF. You still end up with comparable damage to the monk, especially with Weapon Training and the gloves, but you definitely have to take a more ballanced approach to STR/DEX if you want to go "full TWFing".
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So...how is your fighter going to go "full TWFing" if he starts with a 20 STR? You need a 19 DEX to hit Greater Two Weapon Fighting, or at least a 17 for Imp TWF. You still end up with comparable damage to the monk, especially with Weapon Training and the gloves, but you definitely have to take a more ballanced approach to STR/DEX if you want to go "full TWFing".
Read again, the fighter begins with a 18, not a 20. This means I built him with a 16 in Strength before any racial modifier - hardly minimaxing at it's best.
Sample fighter :
16
14
14
10
12
8
Sample monk :
16
12
14
8
15
8
For the fighter, just begin with 13 or 14, and get +6 Dex through a belt. 19+ Dex easily at level 20.
Or begin with 12, and put in the stat point from leveling I didn't even spent in the previous exemple. Still 19 at level 20. Obviously, the first way allows for an early access to TWF. Or hell, if you still feel like it's too late, just begin with 15 Dex and less Intelligence. Minimaxing more is easy to do without even becoming really silly.
