Some babies just need smiting.
What kind of babies are we talking about here? Normal babies with evil alignments? Or things like the terror tots from Malifaux? The former probably not, the latter, probably so if it's actually evil. Which most terror tots aren't evil, they just want the invading humans to go away.Actually, can babies be evil in the first place? As I can see it, for non-undead, non-outsider creatures alignments other than true neutral are reliant on the ability to understand your actions, which is why animals are true neutral. By the same standard, babies should also be true neutral - while they may be smarter than animals (or not - I'm not sure what behavioral science says on the topic), they have yet to understand what they do and why they do it.
Ergo, if it's not an outsider or another creature inherently given an alignment, there is no such thing as "evil babies".
Lack of a conscious or an understanding between right and wrong are fairly traditional definitions of evil. I will also add that just because something is young does not mean that it is innocent.
Of course all of this is irrelevant. You aren't talking about a situation with babies, you are talking about a situation with eggs. Eggs are single celled organisms, not babies. I don't imagine there is a whole lot a paladin could do to an egg that would make him fall unless I don't know he was knowingly killing off an entire species by breaking a bunch of eggs or something.
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Except that the Paladin version allows one to determine the strength of its aura as if it had concentrated for 3 rounds - which, according to the Detect Evil spell, is still NONE.
A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil...
It doesn't matter if you have an evil aura. I paladin can sense whether or not a creature is evil. (emphasis mine)
Well as I have always said to players and DM's alike. The rules are guidelines. The question is what do you regard them as in you game and what does that mean if the Pali choose's wrong. Nothing I hate more is being punished for something the DM gives off as being correct in his world and come to find out I'm wrong in the heat of the moment. But in the same breath a good player will do what he think his character and in this case his deity would think is right.
I imagine in such a situation Pally would need to consult his god... or the DM.
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Reaper Miniatures
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Except that the Paladin version allows one to determine the strength of its aura as if it had concentrated for 3 rounds - which, according to the Detect Evil spell, is still NONE.A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil...It doesn't matter if you have an evil aura. I paladin can sense whether or not a creature is evil. (emphasis mine)
You cleverly omitted the clause after that - "A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds."
The phrase "as if having studied it for 3 rounds" clearly indicates that the Paladin ability functions as the spell, with TWO EXCEPTIONS. ONE: the paladin need not actually study for 3 rounds, full "3-round-esque" knowledge appears immediately, ie aura strength, TWO: the paladin's ability is not a cone, it can be targeted to one object or individual, excluding all other sources of evil.
It functions in all other ways as the spell, meaning it still uses the chart to determine to strength of aura, and thus, babies would not register as having an evil aura. There is no other way to determine the strength of the aura without that chart, and the paladin ability does not get a different chart.
No Aura = alignment indeterminate. There is nothing in either rule about you getting to know anything except the strength of its aura. The clause you omit is a subordinate clause, explaining what "determine if it is evil" means in terms of game rules - it means you know the strength of its aura immediately. Without that clause - yes, you get the GM to read you the alignment entry. With that clause, you get the GM to tell you it's aura strength.
Lack of a conscious or an understanding between right and wrong are fairly traditional definitions of evil. I will also add that just because something is young does not mean that it is innocent.
No, my point is that when you are so young your cognitive processes are at close to animal level, alignment doesn't work very well; in D&D and PF it is presumed alignment of such creatures is TN. They may hurt another without even understanding that they do it, much less meaning to - which is what differentiates them from evil characters, who simply don't care (or like it). Babies - presuming no drastic differences between human, goblin, kobold etc babies - are at a phase where they can no more tell the difference between good and evil than a cat could.
I don't imagine there is a whole lot a paladin could do to an egg that would make him fall unless I don't know he was knowingly killing off an entire species by breaking a bunch of eggs or something.
Er... I'm pretty sure eggs aren't single-celled, but effectively they aren't so different - underdeveloped, helpless, become a child if reared appropriately and not smashed by an armored brute with a big sword ;) .
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Wondering what people's take is. I'm going to have a Paladin in my upcoming group, and there is a high likelihood that said Paladin will find a hatchery of a kobold tribe they will be dealing with. Kobold's are Lawful-Evil. So does the Paladin kill the entire hatchery, with the idea that the babies might one day hurt innocents? Or does he leave the eggs in peace, because they are defenseless creatures?
O this is an easy one! Kobolds worship dragons... dragons like to have mooks and followers.
Go find a Gold dragon and say "Here ya go, free servants! There might be some house training involved!"
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What kind of babies are we talking about here? Normal babies with evil alignments? Or things like the terror tots from Malifaux? The former probably not, the latter, probably so if it's actually evil. Which most terror tots aren't evil, they just want the invading humans to go away.Actually, can babies be evil in the first place? As I can see it, for non-undead, non-outsider creatures alignments other than true neutral are reliant on the ability to understand your actions, which is why animals are true neutral. By the same standard, babies should also be true neutral - while they may be smarter than animals (or not - I'm not sure what behavioral science says on the topic), they have yet to understand what they do and why they do it.
Ergo, if it's not an outsider or another creature inherently given an alignment, there is no such thing as "evil babies".
Stewie Gryphon. Also, the terror tots I mentioned? They are technically baby Neverborn, but they are already intelligent, ambulatory, and hat-filled. Otherwise, you are right. Typically when a baby detects as evil, it was just in the vicinity of great evil.
Actually cannibalism isn't evil in D&D. it does have the slight chance of when you die you become a ghoul though.
.. I think if an act is bad enough that, without any magic, it can raise you from the dead as a horrible mockery of life with an unquenchable, burning hunger for the flesh of the living that its a safe bet to call said act evil.
I'm so happy we're all reaching a consensus.
Of course all of this is irrelevant. You aren't talking about a situation with babies, you are talking about a situation with eggs. Eggs are single celled organisms, not babies. I don't imagine there is a whole lot a paladin could do to an egg that would make him fall unless I don't know he was knowingly killing off an entire species by breaking a bunch of eggs or something.
Sometimes one has to break some eggs in order to make an omelette of goodness.
Greg
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Actually cannibalism isn't evil in D&D. it does have the slight chance of when you die you become a ghoul though.
.. I think if an act is bad enough that, without any magic, it can raise you from the dead as a horrible mockery of life with an unquenchable, burning hunger for the flesh of the living that its a safe bet to call said act evil.
Cannibalism may not be Evil. It is, however, Chaotic Naughty.
Actually cannibalism isn't evil in D&D. it does have the slight chance of when you die you become a ghoul though... I think if an act is bad enough that, without any magic, it can raise you from the dead as a horrible mockery of life with an unquenchable, burning hunger for the flesh of the living that its a safe bet to call said act evil.
Oh yeah sure blaaame the cannibals for the undead. You know what you are? You're just Xenophobic!
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I don't think a paladin would smite kobold babies, instead he (I'm calling him a he because paladins are boys and bards are girls) would choke the life out of them one by one.
Then the camera would pan away to the ranger who would cry a single tear.
We have a can. It is marked with labels for poison. It has a time release device working on it. While in its can the poison does nothing, if you toss it into a fire it wont hurt anyone. If you let it sit there it will go off and kill you and others. If you try to mess with it, it will probably go off as it is designed to do just that.
While other things maybe intelligent, they are not human, and may not be able to be reformed.
Bear in mind, these kobold babies are just eggs. It's a hatchery.
So the question is actually closer to 'Is it evil to make an omlette.'
Bear in mind, these kobold babies are just eggs. It's a hatchery.
So the question is actually closer to 'Is it evil to make an omlette.'
.... you do realize that with eggs there's no difference between "just hatched" and "5 minutes away from hatching" right?
Someone with knowledge nature or .. would local apply here? Point out the bucket test for kobold eggs just to make sure there isn't a baby in there.
immersion test is an excellent indicator of incubation age. Eggs that have been incubated less
than 14 days can be addled humanely. It is the incubation age that is important here, not the
number of days since an egg was laid. For eggs incubated longer than 14 days, the addling
procedures described below may not be humane. Eggs that are pipped (the gosling has begun
hatching by breaking a small hole through the shell) cannot be legally addled. Eggs that are not
pipped, but where movement or sounds are being made by the gosling also cannot be addled.
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Would a Paladin smite evil babies?
No, a baby should be pretty easy to one-shot even without a smite. Waste of resources.
Bear in mind, these kobold babies are just eggs. It's a hatchery.
So the question is actually closer to 'Is it evil to make an omlette.'
I can't believe I'm about to say this...
Would it be morally permissible for a paladin to kick a pregnant, but evil, woman in the stomach really hard then? Do keep in mind those eggs will hatch into sapient creatures that would have rights, too.
** spoiler omitted **
Is it okay for the Paladin to ever eat eggs? Even if hatched from an evil chicken?
What about beef? Are they vegans now?
...I'm going somewhere with this, I'm sure, but not even I know where yet.
Heavens, no. Babies aren't even CR 1/3. :P
I can't recall but wasn't there some awesome poster who a few months back described orphanages and church groups with this very thin in mind? I remember it being an entertaining read.Paladin schmaladin. No good character I've ever played, paladin or barbarian, would be cool with baby murder.
Either there's some church/organization/whatever that can take them in or my character does it himself. If doing the latter would derail the campaign and the former can't be found anywhere, then that character goes through with it anyway and I say goodbye to it, roll a new PC.
Um, that was Mikaze. You quoted said "awesome poster". :)
Also, this is relevant.
Is it okay for the Paladin to ever eat eggs? Even if hatched from an evil chicken?
What about beef? Are they vegans now?
...I'm going somewhere with this, I'm sure, but not even I know where yet.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say its wrong for paladins to eat babies.
babies are young semi sensate beings that will eventually turn into sentient beings.
A kobold egg 5 minutes away from hatching is a baby, it just happens to be a baby in the shell.
The difference is the sentience of the cow or chicken that they're eating.
I agree with the earlier post - say a prayer and walk away. If your deity or theirs wishes that they be saved, they will be.
Remember, this isn't Earth. There's no doubt deities are both real and actively involved. Particularly no doubt in a Paladin's mind.
Yes, deities are known to influence events. Good gods in particular are known for empowering special agents charged with carrying out their gods will while being beacons of hope and righteousness in a dark world.
Perhaps your paladin should have one of THEM show up and do something.
This reminds me of a joke. A town is flooding. A cop comes by, says "get out of the house, the areas going to flood. Man says god will protect him. The place floods, a boat comes by, says get in the boat. Man says god will protect him. The water rises even higher, a helicopter stops by, guy says he's fine, god will protect him.
The man drowns. While he's standing in line at the pearly gates, god walks by checking his list. He stops and looks down and asks "What are YOU doing here?"
Man says "I thought you were going to save me!"
God says "Sheesh, i sent you a cop a boat AND a helicopter, didn't you get the hint?"
Note that in D&D, just because you're evil doesn't mean you ever have or ever will do an evil action.
Also, evil doesn't mean you want to see all people suffer. You could just be a selfish jerk who doesn't care two flies s@%$ about people in general, and would harm someone if the rewards are great enough. That makes you dispositioned to do evil actions, but it doesn't mean you will, especially not if put into a situation where you don't get that kind of opportunities. Evil doesn't mean that all you like is taking evil actions. You might be evil but still like chocolate.
So even if kobolds are irredeemably evil (which they sure aren't in my worlds), it doesn't mean you actually prevent any evil actions by killing them.
In the unlikely event that this isn't trolling, type "paladin killing orc babies" into Google and read at least two decades worth of arguing. I assure you that no new insights will be raised in this thread.Note to self: Check Google first. Thanks MiB.
Also, honestly, I wasn't trolling. I really wanted to see whether or not there was a consensus on whether or not kobold's were evil before they were born. I guess that's a philosophical argument more than an alignment one.
If you're the GM, isn't this up to you?
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My Paladin is borderline psychotic, he has a hard line with evil and if he is on a quest to take down some big bad that has been killing innocents etc. you can be sure he will find him and he will kill him whether be be asleep, on the job, taking a dump or surrendering.
My Pally is not much for the whole 'chance to redeem' evil is a choice and has consequences.
That all said, my Paladin would not be killing babies of Kobolds, Orcs or any other creatures similar. Just because it is expected they will be evil, that does not mean it is guaranteed. More importantly, they have NOT done anything Evil. Kobolds, Orcs and creatures similar can change based on upbringing - they are not mindless and can be taught.
While my Paladin does not think much about redemption, characters can shift alignments, if someone who has been Evil (therefore HAS commited evil acts) can become Good, then unborn children that have not done anything wrong can certainly be Neutral or Good.
I refuse to accept a Kobold unborn baby is anymore evil than a Human unborn baby
It strikes me as so evil to kill eggs that will soon hatch that I would rule that destroying them would be a decidedly evil act and would strip the Paladin of his powers until he atoned. Behavior like this is so bad that it's actually a running gag on Journeyquest, where the Fighter regularly destroys entire villages (including women and children) just because they're orcs.
I think the only thing we have concluded in this thread is Paladins are required to be vegetarians because animals aren't Evil.
FYI almost no babies will radiate evil. Especially lower CR creatures like kobolds.
They don't have enough hit dice to register.
I suggest a lot of people in this thread read the spell again.
FYI almost no babies will radiate evil. Especially lower CR creatures like kobolds.
They don't have enough hit dice to register.
I suggest a lot of people in this thread read the spell again.
What about evil baby clerics?
Owned.
Oh! In THAT case, put your waders on boys and turn off the heat-rock.
and thank god for that. Muddying up the detect evil waters was one of the best things Pathfinder did.In Pathfinder, creatures with less than 5 HD that are also not undead or outsiders do not detect as Evil, using the ability/spell Detect Evil.
Does this solve the situation? No. But it does give your Paladin some leeway in refusing to kill babies, as they are not detectably and demonstrably evil.
Of course, that also means most 1HD Kobolds also do not detect sucessfully as evil...
Yeah I'll +1 that.
I think the only thing we have concluded in this thread is Paladins are required to be vegetarians because animals aren't Evil.
If you ignore every reason why this isn't the case that's been pointed out to you, sure.
Granted, this isn't canon, but
[url=http://sedesdraconis.com/index.php/Kobold]http://sedesdraconis.com/index.php/Kobold[/url/
Life Cycle
Kobolds are egg-layers. Incubation is about 90 days long, but is rarely continuous from the date of laying, instead eggs are often delayed in incubation by storing them in temperature-regulated cold chambers.
Incubation Period: 90 days
Skull Fusion: 4 years
Average Infant Mortality: 1 per 20 live births
Weaning: 1.5-2 years, average 1.75 years
Physical Maturity: 18-24 years
Life Span: 110 years
Real life laws allows the abortion of a fetus up to 24 weeks into gestation without reprisal. Whether an individual agrees with it or not, the consensus is that an abortion up to 24 weeks into pregnancy is not an evil act.
So, if a kobold's gestation period is 90 days it shouldn't be considered evil to destroy the eggs as long as they are in stasis or have not been gestating more than 60 days.
Then you get into the whole "soul" debate. Do undeveloped kobold eggs have souls? If a kobold fetus has yet to receive a soul, even if kobolds are inherently evil, one without a soul would be devoid of any alignment whatsoever. If you believe a creature gets its soul at conception, AND you believe kobolds are inherently evil then it would be ok to destroy the eggs.
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I'll tell you what happened in MY game in the same situation (gobs from RotRL).
The paladin killed a few babies and let a couple of mother live and then decided to burn down the place (with all the gobs inside (mother and children)).
Now I decided (being the DM) that I would not let him go with it.
In my games (and I perfectly understand that people could have different opinions).
Not many are really true evil or true good... may be not even outsiders.
As an angel could fall and a demon could redeem at some point.
As i said that is my opinion in my game. I don't say it's true or false. But it's good enough for me as i like worlds painted in gray.... Not black and white.
ANYWAY... paladins are supposed to be perfect exemples of somebody trying to do goodness and allowing redemption if possible.
Therefore he was punished for a few weeks by his god (IOmedae) and got no special powers from his god all this time.
the player perfectly understood the message. He got his powers back when I gave him the opportunity to save a goblin baby from a destroyed camp.
He then put the baby to the orphanage and got no news back.
I intend to bring him back as a crazy alchemist bomb thrower. Trying to do as much good as possible but LOVING to destroy things (Either true Neutral or Chaotic good).
Anyway I know my players are going to love it and they loved the opportunity (RP and so on).
My advice: Think of what could be cool for YOUR GAME and your players.
We are all here to have fun and there are no right or wrong I think.