Zen Archer Flurry of Blows and two-handed penalty

[Chad Kamyszek]

OK, so traditionally flurry of blows is as follows for melee:

to hit = Monk Level - 2 Penalty + Mods(Dex/Str)

Now, we go to the Zen Archer who can use this with a Bow. The issue I came across is whether or not your take the penalty for your multiple attacks for it being a two-handed weapon.

As the DM ruled for me:
Level 1 Zen Archer with 18 Dex

to hit = Monk level(1) - 2 Penalty + Mods(+4) - 4 two-handed weapon penlaty (comes to -1). So, this is a total of a -6 penalty just to shoot this way. Is this correct? Or does the ability to do it with a bow over ride that rule?

[blackbloodtroll]

I think you are getting the penalties mixed up with melee weapon penalties, which in this case, does not apply. So -2 + monk level seems right.

[Starglim]

You might think of it this way: the traditional flurry of blows emulates Two-Weapon Fighting, but the Zen Archer's flurry is analogous to Rapid Shot.

He should use the listed flurry of blows attack bonus. Superfluous maths only introduces new potential for error.

[Sekret_One]

What is this 'two handed weapon penalty' you speak of... Since when do you take a -4 penalty for fighting with a two handed weapon?

That minus -2 is the 'psuedo two-weapon fighting (or in this case psuedo rapid shot)' penalty. What's the other one?

[Dekalinder]

I think I get what you say though you messed up the math. Flurry of Bows let you TWF with your weapon. Normally, you take a -2 couz your fist are light weapon. If you Flurry with a bow, you are not TWF with a light weapon so the penality is not -2 but -4.

Tecnically i'd say yes, if there wasn't a specific table for Flurry attacks that includes the penality. Since is a specific table i think you should use that one in any cases.

[Nightskies]

The GM either dislikes monks, the zen archer, or you. He's putting a penalty for fighting with two weapons, and that's pulled out of his butt. Tell the GM to knock off the bogus nerf to your character.

[Jarl]

Chad Kamyszek wrote:

OK, so traditionally flurry of blows is as follows for melee:

to hit = Monk Level - 2 Penalty + Mods(Dex/Str)

Now, we go to the Zen Archer who can use this with a Bow. The issue I came across is whether or not your take the penalty for your multiple attacks for it being a two-handed weapon.

As the DM ruled for me:
Level 1 Zen Archer with 18 Dex

to hit = Monk level(1) - 2 Penalty + Mods(+4) - 4 two-handed weapon penlaty (comes to -1). So, this is a total of a -6 penalty just to shoot this way. Is this correct? Or does the ability to do it with a bow over ride that rule?

There is no such penalty.

Monk 1 FoB BAB = -1/-1
Dex 18 mod = +4

FoB Ranged To Hit = -1/-1 + 4 = +3/+3

[see]

Your DM is doing something weird.

The standard interpretation is that you use the Flurry BAB line as written.

The first alternate interpretation would be the normal penalty for using a non-light weapon in each hand with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat is -4/-4. If we count the bow as if it were a non-light weapon held in each hand, then a Zen Archer takes his attacks at (Monk level in place of BAB)-4, which is the same as the (Flurry BAB line)-2.

The second alternative is counting the bow as an inappropriately-sized weapon held in one hand, and no weapon held in the other. In that case, the Two Weapon Fighting penalty is -0 since there's no actual second weapon, and the inappropriately-sized weapon penalty is -2, and the Zen Archer attacks at (Monk level in place of BAB)-2, which is the same as the Flurry BAB line.

The third alternative is counting the bow as an inappropriately-sized weapon held in one hand, and the no weapon held in the other as somehow being a light weapon. In that case, the Two Weapon Fighting penalty is -2, and the inappropriately-sized weapon penalty is -2, and the Zen Archer attacks at (Monk level in place of BAB)-4, which is the same as the (Flurry BAB line)-2.

The fourth alternative is to count the bow as if it were a double weapon, and thus a non-light weapon in one hand and a light in the other. In that case, the Two Weapon Fighting penalty is -2, and the Zen Archer attacks at (Monk level in place of BAB)-2, which is the same as the Flurry BAB line.

I don't see any way you can manage to get to -6 instead of -2 or -4.

[Chad Kamyszek]

Yeah, I think he was adding the -2 for two weapon with the -4 for two-handed weapon.

[chrids]

I'm 100% sure you just use the flurry of bows (see what i did there?) chart from the core rulebook. Instead of unarmed/monk wpn strikes, insert arrows.

[Gruuuu]

chrids wrote:

I'm 100% sure you just use the flurry of bows (see what i did there?) chart from the core rulebook. Instead of unarmed/monk wpn strikes, insert arrows.

That gets very unfun when you multiclass :)

[chrids]

Gruuuu wrote:

chrids wrote:

I'm 100% sure you just use the flurry of bows (see what i did there?) chart from the core rulebook. Instead of unarmed/monk wpn strikes, insert arrows.

That gets very unfun when you multiclass :)

Well, at lvl 1, that's not much of a problem :)

If i am crazy and want to multiclass monk, I would refer to this

Edit: refering to FAQ on Flurry

[Cupcakus]

I was GM on this session, and I'm happy to be wrong, as it seemed really weak to do this, and I mulled over how to handle this days before the session with another GM, and we both settled on this.

Flurry of Blows says it acts as if you are using the Two Weapon feat. This feat causes you to have -4/-4 when attacking with two weapons, instead of the normal -10/-6. Because a lvl 1 Monk has a Flurry BaB of -1/-1, I took this to mean the total penalty was -5/-5 + DEX MOD, so for this character that is -1/-1 in the end for using Flurry of Blows.

If I'm not supposed to use the two weapon fighting penalties, why does the book say to use the two weapon feat at all then?

[spalding]

Please note it states "like" two weapon fighting -- not 'exactly like', and it specifically states what is different. Namely that it is only a -2 penalty, that it doesn't matter how many hands are used for the weapon (you could flurry of blows while using an one handed weapon in two hands or while using a two handed weapon for example) or even how many weapons you have (you can flurry with a single sai for example).

The main purpose for mentioning the two weapon fighting is to preclude someone from trying to two weapon fight while performing a flurry of blows.

[Cupcakus]

So after further discussion I think we have this one figured out, he'll be +3/+3 all said and done next session.

[Maezer]

Cupcakus wrote:

Flurry of Blows says it acts as if you are using the Two Weapon feat. This feat causes you to have -4/-4 when attacking with two weapons, instead of the normal -10/-6. Because a lvl 1 Monk has a Flurry BaB of -1/-1, I took this to mean the total penalty was -5/-5 + DEX MOD, so for this character that is -1/-1 in the end for using Flurry of Blows.

If I'm not supposed to use the two weapon fighting penalties, why does the book say to use the two weapon feat at all then?

You are adding the penalty in twice. The penalty is already being incorporated into the flurry of blow line on the Monk table.

Thus a level 1 monk flurries, his BAB = Monk Level = 1, and he applies the -2 penalty for pseudo two-weapon fighting to each attack, making the end result -1/-1 to each attack.

[Trismentis]

this confuses me even more, so may I add one question: Is the Flurry of Blows that a zen archer makes a ranged or a melee attack?