Humans and halflings do not have it. Pretty much everything else has.
Animals have low light vision pretty universally, even if in reality some of them have actually pretty bad vision (for example snakes are nearly blind as far as I know). In the real world, the visual perception of a human is on the top end of the mammalian spectrum!
Most of the more supernatural critters have darkvision. Giants. Magical Beasts. Dragons. Aberrations. All outsiders.
Why is that?
I would like it much more if darkvision was reserved for creatures where it really makes sense or is justified by their otherness or status in the game (underdark creatures, some outsiders, dragons, many aberrations), and otherwise either replaced by low light vision or (more commonly) just taken away.
Its OK to give nocturnal predators like cats and owl low light vision, but it should really be removed from most other animals. I also do not see the need for most magical beasts, humanoids (with the exception of races from below like dwarves, orcs etc.) and giants to have darkvision.
Because it's part of what makes them things that go bump in the night? Things that can see you better than you see them... ups the challenge factor quite a bit.
Of course. But I think that this argument is valid for only some of the monsters. Note what I wrote in respect to animals.
I also do not see the need of most more or less humanoid creatures that are active in the day for darkvision.
Regarding animals, I think that's just something they decided to make a "universal rule" for the animal type so it's easier to determine a creature's abilities when making them up. You're right, it's not realistic, but from a perspective of mechanical consistency, I can see what they were doing. Also, while most animals have poor sight, relatively speaking, they have superior senses in navigating in other ways---ways which are hard to reflect mechanically beyond giving a bonus to perception, or very specific abilities like scent. I handwave "low-light vision" as "good senses even if it's a little dim" -- yes, I realize it's not perfect because there are vision dependent rules but it at least fits a certain pattern for me.
As for why most creature types have darkvision or low-light vision.... I don't know, seemed like back in the day, everything had infravision. A lot of creatures you encounter are dungeon dwellers--they need to be able to navigate dark areas easily. And it's an easy way to make a monster seem a little more extraordinary. Not defending it (nor condemning it)--just my attempt to answer "why."
And it's an easy way to make a monster seem a little more extraordinary.
Well, its nothing extraordinary if everyone has it... ;)
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And it's an easy way to make a monster seem a little more extraordinary.Well, its nothing extraordinary if everyone has it... ;)
Humans don't have it. Humans are as ordinary as it gets. They even invented the game and most of the make-believe critters found therein. As far as they themselves are concerned, the the universe revolves around them.
Thus everything they don't have is extraordinary.
I agree with the OP. I can understand why say goblinoids or Orcs have dark vision... but why ape men or gnolls?
for that matter why NOT humans? I have done plenty of stalking around in the depths of the wilderness with only the moon to guide my way and still have visibility out to several thousand feet.
I think that the low light vision issue is simply an excuse to not bother with the bad guys needing light sources. in my campaigns i just dump that trait in creatures that dont actually need it. or to be more accurate I allow humans more leeway for night vision and only worry about light conditions when story hinges on visibility.
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I believe these traits are too freely available. I am less worried about monsters since I can adjust them as needed. However, I had an encounter where the monsters open up with darkness and attempt to use their superior sight to gain the advantage and found out literally the entire party had darkvision.
what IS low light vision and dark vision anyway.
If I can walk around with no lights at midnight using only the moon i think its safe to call that low light vision.
I think that generally speaking anything that has dark vision and actually uses their eyes should have a penalty for day vision.
Unless I am way off, by RAW, a rogue cannot actually sneak attack in the dark - dim light gives 20% concealment, and concealment ruins sneak attack (without the rogue taking extra feats).
That shadowy figure in the alley just poked you for 4 damage! OOOHHHH!
From other threads:
There was a guy who limited the PCs to humans/halflings for a horror campaign so he could play with light/dark a lot. Kind of limiting. I guess I'd move every race down a notch, even Dwarfs as don't they usually carry torches/have flames going down there in many myths?
Another guy posted how in PFS play, instead of calling out "Cleric needed" or some standard call, he called out "Darkvision party" and instantly filled his ranks, using darkness to great advantage against the modules designed as if the PCs carried/needed light.
But beware limiting PC vision, as GM, I find it rather easy to target a party's light source. Weenies that can cast Darkness can dispel the PCs magic light sources (and Light can't penetrate the 2nd Darkness cast), and there's Deeper Darkness just in case the Continual Flame came from a Cleric (instead of store-bought as 2nd level spell from arcane caster).
It makes things crazy when nobody can see (and hard to run, if nobody can reasonably look at the battlemat), so I don't plan on exploiting this anytime soon. Maybe when they go against the Drow and have difficulty getting more ruby dust...
As for animals, yeah, but...doesn't effect my game much. Also, animals are often in dungeons and deep caves on Golarion (Greyhawk/FR/etc.) where such ecosystems are more prevalent. So maybe those animals are different from our animals.
what IS low light vision and dark vision anyway.
Low-Light VisionCharacters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
Note that last sentence. While it's true that moonlight can be surprisingly bright if you don't have a pesky human settlement with its myriad lights nearby, but there's still a difference for humans between moonlight and sunlight. For an elf, there isn't.
DarkvisionDarkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
So darkvision is basically a totally unrealistic, quasi-magical form of vision that lets you just see with no light source. It's not ultravision or infravision or anything like that, it's not night-vision goggles which need some form of light to work and which will really mess up your vision if you're suddenly introduced to bright light. It just works as if a wizard did it. Which is perfectly fine in a game where wizards are actually around. And creatures that are magical in nature.
Other than former editions' infravision, darkvision won't rob realism freaks of many a night's sleep as they get worked up about how infravision should let you see invisible creatures as it's basically thermal vision and if the invisibility spell blocks heat emanations, it will boil you in your own robes.
Not to mention that since it simply works the way it does, you don't have that "there is normal light, you cannot use your magivision now!" nonsense.
Not too mention that creatures in real life that have good vision in dim light also tend to have trouble seeing in bright light. Not in D&D, though. Scent is another weird sense, because in real life birds have a good sense of smell but it is not applied to birds in D&D.
Human and halfling vision is the abnormality!
Okay, let's see. The following creatures from the Bestiary have no special vision types:
Lizardfolk
Rhinoceros and Wooly Rhinoceros (although they do have scent)
Snake, Constrictor (scent again)
That's it, unless I missed any.
Edit: And here's a go at the B2:
Slime Mold
I like what Mok said.
I think I will do something similar.
The way campeigns work now people literally walk down the hallway chucking pebbles with light as they go.
... to be honest.. I cant really remember the last time light truly mattered except when some one cast darkness.
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Low-Light VisionCharacters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
I just saw that second sentence recently. Hadn't noticed it before. How does that interact with this:
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
If moonlight = dim light, can any character with low-light vision see in dim light as if it were daylight? i.e., no 20% miss chance (making sneak attacks okay) and opponents can't stealth vs. them?
Also, if low-light vision can see in dim light as if it were daylight, why does it matter that they can see twice as far in dim light as a regular person?
Also, if low-light vision can see in dim light as if it were daylight, why does it matter that they can see twice as far in dim light as a regular person?
It has to do with light radius. If a torch has a radius of 20 ft of normal light, it also has an extra 20 ft of dim light for the human. An elf or any other low light vision character can see up to 40 ft radius as if it were normal and an extra 20 (or 40? I forget) ft as if it were dim light.
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Also, if low-light vision can see in dim light as if it were daylight, why does it matter that they can see twice as far in dim light as a regular person?It has to do with light radius. If a torch has a radius of 20 ft of normal light, it also has an extra 20 ft of dim light for the human. An elf or any other low light vision character can see up to 40 ft radius as if it were normal and an extra 20 (or 40? I forget) ft as if it were dim light.
Makes sense.
Human w/ torch = 20' regular light + 20' dim light, then darkness
Low-light guy w torch = 60' "regular" light, then darkness (20' regular light + 20'x2 dim light = regular light)
Any confirmation of my first observation/question - someone with low-light vision in dim light doesn't suffer 20% miss chance, therefore can make sneak attacks verses someone w/o low light vision, and can't be Steathed against due to Concealment from light.
OP - generally I agree that there is too much Darkvision, and that most Darkvision ought to come with Light Sensitivity (or whatever orcs have).
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And it's an easy way to make a monster seem a little more extraordinary.Well, its nothing extraordinary if everyone has it... ;)
well if it makes you feel any better, vision enhancements are nearly useless in this game now that a 0 level spell caster can spam light lol.
very rarely will a pc with dark vision have an advantage over anyone else.
all the monsters well i kind of agree with that.
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Also, if low-light vision can see in dim light as if it were daylight, why does it matter that they can see twice as far in dim light as a regular person?
Also, I don't know how often this would come into play, but regular human vision cannot detect color well (or at all) in dim light. Presumably those with low-light vision would still be able to see color in similar conditions.
Humans actually have fairly poor night vision in comparison to other animals. Our color vision is better than most animals, except for birds. Birds have some of the best vision around.
Snakes are pretty neat because they actually have thermal vision. A snake can still "see" even in complete darkness.
I've stripped darkvision away in some campaigns I've run. The main reason is to ensure that light sources remain important and that the dark really is a threat. In these campaigns i've also modified other light sources, such as to bump light back up to a 1st level spell and make everburning torches a rare and expensive magic item.
It does make for a tighter and more interesting game. Far too many things were set to an "easy setting" when the game shifted to 3.0.
We recently had to go up against a band of tieflings with nothing to counter their darkvision with.
That was one of the most annoying sessions ever.
And what's so bad about light being usable at will? Is it really so important to make players micromanage torches or lamps and oil and messing up people using both hands for weapons or a weapon or a shield?
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I don't feel that the light/dark/vision thing is really an issue, personally. Sure, it's common, but not ubiquitous.
As far as low-light rules: For a source of light that only reaches out to X distance, low-light normally doubles those distances. So a guy with low-light and a torch treats the first 40' as normal, and treats the second 40' as dim (double the normal distances). Note that they STILL have dim at the edge of their vision! Low-light does not mean you can never have something be "dim" to you, just that things that are dim to those without low-light aren't dim to you.
EDIT: The above doesn't apply to sources that don't have a distance limit, like moonlight, just to things like torches and spell sources that give you a set distance. A character with any form of low-light would see any distance clearly as long as that area would be dim or brighter to a normal character. /EDIT
In 3.5e there were creatures (such as dragons) that had higher multipliers of low-light vision, like 5*. This meant a torch would be 100' of normal light and 100' of dim light for them (quite the distance for such a weak light source!). Even a candle was something around 25' normal, 25' dim. I'm not sure if PF has any creatures that have a low-light multiplier other than 2.
Also note that low-light and darkvision overlap, but light does NOT cancel darkvision (which I believe is a change from previous editions). Someone holding a torch with both vision types (say 2x low-light and 60ft darkvision) would see the first 40' normal from both vision modes, the next 20' normal due to darkvision, and another 20' dim thanks to low-light vision.
I've stripped darkvision away in some campaigns I've run. The main reason is to ensure that light sources remain important and that the dark really is a threat. In these campaigns i've also modified other light sources, such as to bump light back up to a 1st level spell and make everburning torches a rare and expensive magic item.
It does make for a tighter and more interesting game. Far too many things were set to an "easy setting" when the game shifted to 3.0.
We recently had to go up against a band of tieflings with nothing to counter their darkvision with.
That was one of the most annoying sessions ever.
And what's so bad about light being usable at will? Is it really so important to make players micromanage torches or lamps and oil and messing up people using both hands for weapons or a weapon or a shield?
I think he's running a game that uses fear of the 'unseen'. If you have 20 light sources shining, and can toss rocks with Light on them all around at will, it kind of kills the 'fear of the dark' aspect.
Had a time when I drew a corridor and stopped. A player asked why I stopped, he wanted to see the rest and I said his light didn't reach that far. I could see him contemplate what may be down there, with him standing in a lit area. It made the party move a little swifter...
Also, running low on light sources could make for a neat factor (once).
I like what Mok said.
I think I will do something similar.
The way campeigns work now people literally walk down the hallway chucking pebbles with light as they go.
... to be honest.. I cant really remember the last time light truly mattered except when some one cast darkness.
read the second part of light :)
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If moonlight = dim light, can any character with low-light vision see in dim light as if it were daylight? i.e., no 20% miss chance (making sneak attacks okay) and opponents can't stealth vs. them?
Not quite. Moonlight is an example of dim light. That specific source of dim light is considered normal light for creatures with low-light vision. Other sources of dim-light (edges of tourches, deeper darkness in a sunny field, etc) still affect creatures with low-light vision normally.
I agree with hyla. But low light vision it's almost useless.