Newbie needs help with halfling shortbow sniper rogue


Advice


hi! I'm making a halfling sniper rogue that uses the shortbow. I essentially want a rogue that will talk its way out of battle if possible. but if not - she can shoot, stealth, shoot, stealth, shoot, stealth... and so on. my halfling gets -10 in the stealth penalty after sniping (via swift as shadows instead of sure-footed), and I aim to take the advanced rogue trait that further eliminates the remaining 10. so... the goal is to never be hit.

the character is level 6. we might use level 8. if we do I'll of course be getting the sniper goggles.

while my group are playing for RP & fun, so I'm obviously not going 100% all out optimal - ANY tips and hints on how to improve would be greatly appreciated! and keep in mind, I'm a real newbie to Pathfinder and DnD in general. so feel free to swap out feats and rogue talents, recommend armour, whatever!

so here is some of what I've come up with (no gear or weapons, but I will use a composite shortbow, and I will pick up the sniper goggles if we start out at level 8) thus far:

abilities after levelling and adding racial modifiers
(rolling system is 4 d6, re-roll 1s)
STR: 14
DEX: 21
CON: 6 (LOL)
INT: 18
WIS: 13
CHA: 20

feats:
dodge
skill focus stealth
point-blank shot

rogue talents:
bleeding attack
sniper's eyes
surprise attack

fort: 1
reflex: 11
will: 4
CMD: 20
CMB: 5

I suppose posting skill is a bit unnecessary, especially considering most choices are due to RP, but, here's the ones I put my ranks in (6 in all of them - skill point instead of hp from favoured class):
acrobatics
bluff
diplomacy
disable device
disguise
escape artist
geography
history
nature
linguistics (I speak 12 languages, LOL)
perception
perform oratory
stealth (21 in total there, without gear of any kind)

thanks to everyone who read this far! :-)


alexanderb wrote:


CON: 6 (LOL)

Good lord.

You look like you're doing fine in there. I would not suggest Dodge over Precise Shot, however, because as you said, your goal is to never get hit. 1 AC is almost entirely superfluous in the long run, and while you might use it to get to Shot on the Run, you kind of want to not take a -4 to hit when firing into melee, especially since you're a 3/4ths BAB character.


Ice Titan wrote:
alexanderb wrote:


CON: 6 (LOL)

Good lord.

I have 32hp at level 6. does this sound really bad? haha.

it should be mentioned that my DM has two campaigns that will eventually merge. one of them is social, one is combat. so in the social one, I rolled a barbarian with a masterwork scythe, 2x fleet (base speed of 50), 6 CHA, and other... not very social things. so playing a 6 CON/20 CHA PC in the combat campaign is of course meant as a joke at his cost. ;-)

but I aim at literally *never* being hit, so I'm hoping to not need much CON.

Ice Titan wrote:


You look like you're doing fine in there. I would not suggest Dodge over Precise Shot, however, because as you said, your goal is to never get hit. 1 AC is almost entirely superfluous in the long run, and while you might use it to get to Shot on the Run, you kind of want to not take a -4 to hit when firing into melee, especially since you're a 3/4ths BAB character.

the reason I'm getting dodge is to get mobility and shot on the run. do you think this is a bad route? or would you just prefer getting precise shot *first*? I hadn't considered that feat, but I see its value. especially considering I will be at a distance, if possible, and just firing away every now and then, while my party battle them out melee.


You seriously should consider moving some points in to constitution, fortitude is not your best save, and having extra hp never hurts.


Nemitri wrote:
You seriously should consider moving some points in to constitution, fortitude is not your best save, and having extra hp never hurts.

I believe you missed the part where he said he was using 4d6 reroll 1s for the stat gen.

alexanderb wrote:
I have 32hp at level 6. does this sound really bad? haha.

32 at level 6 is surprisingly not bad. I have 30 at level 5 on my Witch. You intend to be within charge range roughly 1/2 as much as my Witch does. Ergo, I wouldn't worry too much. The down side is that 38 damage = dead thing.

On a humorous note, I had a player in my game yesterday charge a higher level cavalier using a bear mount. He raged on the way in, killed the cavalier...and was then sitting next to a level 7 cavalier's bear mount with 11 AC and a mere 14 hitpoints (he had been hit with a Ride-by Attack lance for 28 immediately prior to this). Obviously, he was less than happy with the resulting full attack, which could only miss on 1s and 2s.

You're not planning on doing that. This means you'll probably survive.


alexanderb wrote:


the reason I'm getting dodge is to get mobility and shot on the run. do you think this is a bad route? or would you just prefer getting precise shot *first*? I hadn't considered that feat, but I see its value. especially considering I will be at a distance, if possible, and just firing away every now and then, while my party battle them out melee.

I think that it is a bad route.

Right now you are attacking at a +9~, assuming you're level 6 like your stat block suggests. Monsters at CR 8, which is about what you'll face on a bad day, have ACs around 21. Flat-footed, probably like, 18 is what you'll usually see.

You can attack an AC 18/21 with a +9, or an AC 18/21 with a +5. Or... have 1 more AC.


Ice Titan wrote:
alexanderb wrote:


CON: 6 (LOL)
Good lord.

+1. You're going to fail a fort save at the worst possible time, if you don't suffer some massive damage first. See if your GM will give you some slack there.


Swap the con with the wis, and the wis with the cha, so you have:
STR: 14
DEX: 21
CON: 13
INT: 18
WIS: 18
CHA: 8

While you won't be as charismatic, you'll be very good at reading people, and sensing their motives - so you don't lose the talkative nature. Your charisma may be slightly below average, but that's easily compensated for by your vast amount of skills.

Also, you should probably spend your favored class points on hit points. You can never really get too many of those. With 8 base + 4 int = 12 maxed skills (you don't need to max them even, with those great mods), you'll outskill EVERYONE anyway. Your listed skills only include 13 skills - I'd put half ranks in two of them (perform and knowledge (nature), probably). Your totally awesome skillset would look like this:
acrobatics +14
bluff +8
diplomacy +8
disable device +13
disguise +8
escape artist +14
geography +13
history +13
nature +7
linguistics +13
perception +13
perform oratory +5
stealth +18
These are just ranks, class skill bonus, ability bonus and the size bonus to stealth, so they'll probably end up higher accounting for equipment, race and class abilities and such.

Meanwhile, your hit points will have risen from 36 to 52, and your saves from -1/+10/+2 to +2/+10/+5.


I got partway into your post and had to bring it to the attention of one of my players. Here's his response:

Hey, this one of Doc's players.
He asked me to look over this because I've played dedicated snipers and sneaks before, and I have a talker in the works right now.
In my opinion, this character has been built almost exactly along the lines of the concept. Naturally, I would have done things a little differently, but I'm a different person, so that's no surprise. I do have a couple of comments to make, but these are only my opinions and recommendations. Please feel free to disregard them, if you are so inclined.

I think your low Constitution score plays into this concept nicely. A frail character is more likely to want to avoid combat, and to remain at longer range when combat starts. Your Hit Point total is pretty good for your level and hit-die type, so I wouldn't worry too much about being too easy to kill.

I feel that the Dodge feat is a good choice, because that +1 has saved my bacon surprisingly often. Taking this over Precise Shot is not a “bad choice.” To me, it speaks of a character who has not trained in shooting around her allies, or who *has* and is simply afraid that she will hit her allies anyway, thus losing the benefit of her training in actual combat. That's just me role-playing the lack of a feat, giving an in-character reason for mechanical choices.

In reviewing your skill selection, I noticed that you have *no* ranks in Sense Motive *at all,* which means that the only bonus to Sense Motive checks the character has is the +1 from her Wisdom modifier. The +3 class skill bonus is, after all, only gained if you have at least one rank in that skill. A talker should have ranks in Sense Motive, and it should be maxed out if your primary role is the Face of the Party. Also, if an opponent gets within melee attack range and tries to use a feint against you, having Sense Motive maxed out makes it much harder for the feint to succeed — and take away a good portion of your AC. In your case, the DC would become twenty instead of fifteen.
I would suggest dropping a few ranks each from a few of your less-than-necessary skills, and transferring those ranks to Sense Motive. Personally, I would drop two ranks each from your Knowledge skills, thus gaining six ranks to drop into Sense Motive.
As a side-note on your skills, I like that you maxed out Linguistics. Being able to speak twelve different languages means that you are more likely to be able to talk through a situation.

Final note: I like the concept, I like how it has been built, and I want to know how it works out at the table.


Nemitri wrote:
You seriously should consider moving some points in to constitution, fortitude is not your best save, and having extra hp never hurts.

doesn't hurt... but I see a direct relationship between the amount of facepalm induced on my DM and the less constitution I have.

Serisan wrote:

32 at level 6 is surprisingly not bad. I have 30 at level 5 on my Witch. You intend to be within charge range roughly 1/2 as much as my Witch does. Ergo, I wouldn't worry too much. The down side is that 38 damage = dead thing.

On a humorous note, I had a player in my game yesterday charge a higher level cavalier using a bear mount. He raged on the way in, killed the cavalier...and was then sitting next to a level 7 cavalier's bear mount with 11 AC and a mere 14 hitpoints (he had been hit with a Ride-by Attack lance for 28 immediately prior to this). Obviously, he was less than happy with the resulting full attack, which could only miss on 1s and 2s.

You're not planning on doing that. This means you'll probably survive.

I meant 30 not 32. maybe I'll re-reoll until I get 39, haha. thanks for the input.

Ice Titan wrote:

I think that it is a bad route.

Right now you are attacking at a +9~, assuming you're level 6 like your stat block suggests. Monsters at CR 8, which is about what you'll face on a bad day, have ACs around 21. Flat-footed, probably like, 18 is what you'll usually see.

You can attack an AC 18/21 with a +9, or an AC 18/21 with a +5. Or... have 1 more AC.

you think it's a bad route altogether, or you would postpone it? because shot on the run fits perfectly with my character, so I like that route - but would definitely be willing to postpone it in order to have precise shot at these low levels.

stringburka wrote:

Swap the con with the wis, and the wis with the cha, so you have:

STR: 14
DEX: 21
CON: 13
INT: 18
WIS: 18
CHA: 8

While you won't be as charismatic, you'll be very good at reading people, and sensing their motives - so you don't lose the talkative nature. Your charisma may be slightly below average, but that's easily compensated for by your vast amount of skills.

Also, you should probably spend your favored class points on hit points. You can never really get too many of those. With 8 base + 4 int = 12 maxed skills (you don't need to max them even, with those great mods), you'll outskill EVERYONE anyway. Your listed skills only include 13 skills - I'd put half ranks in two of them (perform and knowledge (nature), probably). Your totally awesome skillset would look like this:
acrobatics +14
bluff +8
diplomacy +8
disable device +13
disguise +8
escape artist +14
geography +13
history +13
nature +7
linguistics +13
perception +13
perform oratory +5
stealth +18
These are just ranks, class skill bonus, ability bonus and the size bonus to stealth, so they'll probably end up higher accounting for equipment, race and class abilities and such.

Meanwhile, your hit points will have risen from 36 to 52, and your saves from -1/+10/+2 to +2/+10/+5.

my hit points are rolled, so they might not increase at all. but anyway, I appreciate the input, but this is just a bit too far away from where I'm aiming RP-wise (and annoy-DM-wise, heh). but yeah, thanks for taking the time! :-)

Doc_Outlands wrote:

I got partway into your post and had to bring it to the attention of one of my players. Here's his response:

thanks for bringing this to his attention, and feel encouraged to show hi my reply! :-)

Doc_Outlands wrote:

Hey, this one of Doc's players.

He asked me to look over this because I've played dedicated snipers and sneaks before, and I have a talker in the works right now.
In my opinion, this character has been built almost exactly along the lines of the concept. Naturally, I would have done things a little differently, but I'm a different person, so that's no surprise. I do have a couple of comments to make, but these are only my opinions and recommendations. Please feel free to disregard them, if you are so inclined.

I think your low Constitution score plays into this concept nicely. A frail character is more likely to want to avoid combat, and to remain at longer range when combat starts. Your Hit Point total is pretty good for your level and hit-die type, so I wouldn't worry too much about being too easy to kill.

I feel that the Dodge feat is a good choice, because that +1 has saved my bacon surprisingly often. Taking this over Precise Shot is not a “bad choice.” To me, it speaks of a character who has not trained in shooting around her allies, or who *has* and is simply afraid that she will hit her allies anyway, thus losing the benefit of her training in actual combat. That's just me role-playing the lack of a feat, giving an in-character reason for mechanical choices.

In reviewing your skill selection, I noticed that you have *no* ranks in Sense Motive *at all,* which means that the only bonus to Sense Motive checks the character has is the +1 from her Wisdom modifier. The +3 class skill bonus is, after all, only gained if you have at least one rank in that skill. A talker should have ranks in Sense Motive, and it should be maxed out if your primary role is the Face of the Party. Also, if an opponent gets within melee attack range and tries to use a feint against you, having Sense Motive maxed out makes it much harder for the feint to succeed — and take away a good portion of...

I think I can swing RPing a lack of dodge just as easily as a lack of precise shot, so here I'm mostly just interested in picking the "better" option. so I might get precise shot now, if that's smarter.

the reason for lacking sense motive is the character's naïvety (and annoying my party/DM with the fact that she isn't a perfect "talker"). but I did forget that you have to invest a skill rank to get +3, but a character that's great at bluffing but piss poor at sensing motive is interesting to me. but if this is simply "too stupid", I might change it, haha. I'm just offering an RP explanation.

@everyone - feel free to recommend gear for a level 6 character, which won't be able to afford the sniper goggles.


can't edit my previous post, but I read up a bit about archetypes, so I'm using the sniper one, getting accuracy and deadly range.

so now I have 50ft sneak attack (60 at level 9). would you guys still recommend the sniper goggles? or is some other gear more... fitting? I don't really know how to make magic items myself.


Mobility and Shot on the Run will be useful, but not right now. I don't see a lot of enemies getting past your amazing stealth check, but soon, they will, and it'll be useful. Just not more useful than just killing them without having to take permanent character options as a contingency to run away from them. You might want to trade in Bleeding Attack for the Dodge feat if you want, just to get Shot on the Run at 9th.

On that note, does 'your speed' mentioned in Spring Attack and Shot on the Run mean, you know, the base speed, or the speed of a double move? I'd never thought of it before. If it's base speed, then it's just a trap feat, I think.

EDIT: Sniper goggles are amazing. _Amazing._

At 6 you're doing 1d4+3d6+enhancement bonus. Average 13. Sniper goggles makes it 1d4+3d6+6, or average 19. It's a great item. Almost every rogue should have a pair just to abuse surprise rounds and thrown weapons.


OK I think I'll postpone shot on the run for now, and get precise shot. thanks! I think I'll keep bleeding attack.


BTW considering I'm trying to annoy my DM (in a friendly way, of course), I am going to nag him to let me make my own lore for halflings, since I don't think there is much in his world. then maybe I can swap fearless for "coward" (since she kind of is), and give me a stealth bonus instead of a fear save bonus. maybe a proficiency with a composite longbow... or "uses bows like a size M creature"? other tips for things I can try getting away with? haha.


alexanderb wrote:
BTW considering I'm trying to annoy my DM (in a friendly way, of course), I am going to nag him to let me make my own lore for halflings, since I don't think there is much in his world. then maybe I can swap fearless for "coward" (since she kind of is), and give me a stealth bonus instead of a fear save bonus. maybe a proficiency with a composite longbow... or "uses bows like a size M creature"? other tips for things I can try getting away with? haha.

There's the craven option, but it not only takes away fearless, but also halfling luck. I'd say it sucks. Just be fearless - heck, get a fear resistance bonus (i.e. from swashbuckler) but play the character that way. You don't let fear rule you, you just listen at it from time to time :).

Speaking of the swashbuckler archetype, if you aren't going to be doing trapspringing duty do give it a check. It gives you an extra martial WP (i.e. longbow) and allows you to take 1 more fighter feat via your rogue talents. For stealth, I doubt you'd need a bonus - I was playing a halfling rogue without the skill focus, and I was pretty hard to spot - but trading acrobatic for the fast stealth alternative racial might not be bad. If that isn't enough, you can always try to pick up the stealthy feat :) .

However, I think if you want to be a sniper you might be better off picking ranger (halflings have an awesome favored class swap for it) and trying to trade favored terrain and/or hunter's bond for weapon training with bows (even if it's a little slowed down). That + gloves of dueling + bracers of archery mean things can get very dead, very fast.


I think that you're going to be suprised on how useful precise shot really is. Also you should spend your money on dex items, bonuses to hit, and stealth. I also recommend rapid shot, many shot. Just some feats that will make you deal more damage. Also consider the feat hellcat stealth and perhaps a level 1 dip into shadowdancer for hide in plain sight.


Serisan wrote:
Nemitri wrote:
You seriously should consider moving some points in to constitution, fortitude is not your best save, and having extra hp never hurts.

I believe you missed the part where he said he was using 4d6 reroll 1s for the stat gen.

alexanderb wrote:
I have 32hp at level 6. does this sound really bad? haha.

32 at level 6 is surprisingly not bad. I have 30 at level 5 on my Witch. You intend to be within charge range roughly 1/2 as much as my Witch does. Ergo, I wouldn't worry too much. The down side is that 38 damage = dead thing.

On a humorous note, I had a player in my game yesterday charge a higher level cavalier using a bear mount. He raged on the way in, killed the cavalier...and was then sitting next to a level 7 cavalier's bear mount with 11 AC and a mere 14 hitpoints (he had been hit with a Ride-by Attack lance for 28 immediately prior to this). Obviously, he was less than happy with the resulting full attack, which could only miss on 1s and 2s.

You're not planning on doing that. This means you'll probably survive.

Geez man, what kind of archaic monster still uses that horrendous way of producing stats!


The Shaman wrote:

There's the craven option, but it not only takes away fearless, but also halfling luck. I'd say it sucks. Just be fearless - heck, get a fear resistance bonus (i.e. from swashbuckler) but play the character that way. You don't let fear rule you, you just listen at it from time to time :).

Speaking of the swashbuckler archetype, if you aren't going to be doing trapspringing duty do give it a check. It gives you an extra martial WP (i.e. longbow) and allows you to take 1 more fighter feat via your rogue talents. For stealth, I doubt you'd need a bonus - I was playing a halfling rogue without the skill focus, and I was pretty hard to spot - but trading acrobatic for the fast stealth alternative racial might not be bad. If that isn't enough, you can always try to pick up the stealthy feat :) .

However, I think if you want to be a sniper you might be better off picking ranger (halflings have an awesome favored class swap for it) and trying to trade favored terrain and/or hunter's bond for weapon training with bows (even if it's a little slowed down). That + gloves of dueling + bracers of archery mean things can get very dead, very fast.

yea I'm not losing luck as well, so that's out of the question. but I'm pretty sure I can convince him to let me modify fearless. I'm going to write my own race, nation, etc, and just put it in his lap and go "that's what you need to know about my character, GLHF," and hope he doesn't mind, haha. I will of course modify according to his wishes, but I'm confident I can get some of my stuff through.

I see rogue as a better choice, because of two things. 1. I want to stealth a lot. 2. the character is useless in survival and things like that. she has a lot of theoretical knowledge of nature, but she doesn't know how to put it to use. just like she's great at bluffing, but horrendous at sensing motive. these choices are pure RP choices, mind you.

Black_Lantern wrote:
I think that you're going to be suprised on how useful precise shot really is. Also you should spend your money on dex items, bonuses to hit, and stealth. I also recommend rapid shot, many shot. Just some feats that will make you deal more damage. Also consider the feat hellcat stealth and perhaps a level 1 dip into shadowdancer for hide in plain sight.

yea I swapped dodge for precise shot. :-)

definitely considering SD for hide in plain sight. loved playing a shadowdancer/arcane archer on Neverwinter Nights (DnD 3.0 beta rules), so I am somewhat familiar with the class. in pathfinder it seems really defensive, so I might just dip in for the one feat though.


Nemitri wrote:
Serisan wrote:
Nemitri wrote:
You seriously should consider moving some points in to constitution, fortitude is not your best save, and having extra hp never hurts.

I believe you missed the part where he said he was using 4d6 reroll 1s for the stat gen.

alexanderb wrote:
I have 32hp at level 6. does this sound really bad? haha.

32 at level 6 is surprisingly not bad. I have 30 at level 5 on my Witch. You intend to be within charge range roughly 1/2 as much as my Witch does. Ergo, I wouldn't worry too much. The down side is that 38 damage = dead thing.

On a humorous note, I had a player in my game yesterday charge a higher level cavalier using a bear mount. He raged on the way in, killed the cavalier...and was then sitting next to a level 7 cavalier's bear mount with 11 AC and a mere 14 hitpoints (he had been hit with a Ride-by Attack lance for 28 immediately prior to this). Obviously, he was less than happy with the resulting full attack, which could only miss on 1s and 2s.

You're not planning on doing that. This means you'll probably survive.

Geez man, what kind of archaic monster still uses that horrendous way of producing stats!

The kind that likes crazy stats.

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