Hey guys, maybe this topic has been beat to death but I'd like to hear of anyone's previous experience in doing what I plan to try out. The plan is to do away with CMB and CMD for the most part and use the rules for bull rush etc with the old 3.5 rules.
There is a catch, I believe I will be keeping the PF size modifiers since they seem to progress at a much more reasonable rate, and instead of the manuver failing if AoO hits, they get a minus proportionate to the damage dealt. (this would make most attempts futile if they connect but still there is a chance of pulling to technique off). The reason why I am wanting to do this is because of a particular situation that arose in my game group. I was running the absolute classic "Red Hand of Doom", and in one encounter it is suggested that the lowbie fodder try to bullrush the PCs off the edge. This had at least a chance for success in 3.5 because first guy gets AoO'd probably dies, but three more guys will attempt seconds later. In pathfinder, there was no way in heck a lowbie could hit the cmd of the main fighter, and even the mage was...no push over, heh. This got me kind of irked, so I'm embarking on this path.
So thanks for reading, and I'm looking forward to hearing of your exp, and any suggestions on how to make it work. Even if you want to defend CMD I will listen, maybe I'm missing something. =P
Why some some mook be able to bullrush a highly trained combatant? A nat 20 autosucceeds so they still have chance.
Back to my defense part of gaining levels is being more resilient to lower level threats.
The idea of mooks not bypassing CMD also applies to other CMB maneuvers like trip which had a good chance to work in 3.5. If you change one, by that logic more should change, not that I think any of them should.
I would just used the 3.5 bullrush rules if you insist on doing it though.
Hey guys, maybe this topic has been beat to death but I'd like to hear of anyone's previous experience in doing what I plan to try out. The plan is to do away with CMB and CMD for the most part and use the rules for bull rush etc with the old 3.5 rules.
There is a catch, I believe I will be keeping the PF size modifiers since they seem to progress at a much more reasonable rate, and instead of the manuver failing if AoO hits, they get a minus proportionate to the damage dealt. (this would make most attempts futile if they connect but still there is a chance of pulling to technique off). The reason why I am wanting to do this is because of a particular situation that arose in my game group. I was running the absolute classic "Red Hand of Doom", and in one encounter it is suggested that the lowbie fodder try to bullrush the PCs off the edge. This had at least a chance for success in 3.5 because first guy gets AoO'd probably dies, but three more guys will attempt seconds later. In pathfinder, there was no way in heck a lowbie could hit the cmd of the main fighter, and even the mage was...no push over, heh. This got me kind of irked, so I'm embarking on this path.
So thanks for reading, and I'm looking forward to hearing of your exp, and any suggestions on how to make it work. Even if you want to defend CMD I will listen, maybe I'm missing something. =P
What about simply planning any fodder you plan on using special abilities to be well equipped to perform that action? I don't know the RHoD module, but make it so THAT set of mooks get a decent bonus to bull-rush? Give them Improved Bull Rush (+2 to Bull Rush attempts, avoid AoO)? If bull rush is a normal strategy for these guys, it's not too much of a stretch to give that to them as special training.
Converting modules does require making choices between sticking to the exact mechanics, or occasionally stepping outside of them to keep the flavor of the module intact.
Personally, I LOVE the CMB/CMD system, think it's way more elegant than the mess that 3.5 had, and would hate to see (what I consider to be) such an improvement tossed aside because of one improperly converted scenario.
EDIT: Seeing that it was originally a 3.5 module, I can see why you're considering going back to the old rules. I'd just hate to see such a (again, my opinion) awesome improvement in the rules go to waste.
... there was no way in heck a lowbie could hit the cmd of the main fighter...
This doesn't bother me. I think it was too easy in 3.5 even from the players perspective. I was a grappling barbarian and I just kept shutting down the badguys. It actually got boring. "I rage and grapple the ultimate warrior of (?), he can't use his poisoned vorpral great axe he can only try to stab me with his normal dagger, and he has to roll a 19 or 20 twice in a row to get away." I retired the character because I felt bad for messing up so many of the DM's encounters.
... even the mage was...no push over...
This bothers me a little more in PF but not too much. It might seem more real if the mooks can tangle them up but it can get old real quick.
I don't remember that specific module. However, I would recommend improved bull rush (as suggested above). Buffs, a potion of enlarge is cheap and gives the size modifier. Situation modifiers, mooks running down hill at players on a wet and narrow polished marble ledge. I'd easily give the mooks a +3 or more for something like that. Second guy can 'assist' the first for another +2. Adds up pretty quick to something that can let them succeed this time without it becoming so great it is the standard tactic.