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Ranged Spellstrike (Su): At 4th level, a myrmidarch can
use spellstrike to cast a single-target touch attack ranged
spell and deliver it through a ranged weapon attack. Even if
the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single
missile, ray, or effect accompanies the attack.
At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target
spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect
with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to
the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray
effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast
are lost. This ability replaces spell recall and improved
spell recall.
My question is, how he does use a bow? he still need the one hand free to cast per spellstrike. Or i am wrong?
Edit: I double-psted by mistake, ending up with 2 identical thread. I deleted the other post, but I can't seem to be able to delete the thread. So, if by chance a moderator passes by, please delete the other thread. And also please don't bash me too much ^^
technically you are right, it doesn't state it has to be a bow though, it could be a thrown weapon instead. I am not sure it is RAI though, the bow seems to be the archetypal use for this ability.
Still spell could still bypass this, as could spells without somatic component, I'll hit FAQ.. I assume the attacks use the standard attack progression with a -2, but I am not quite sure on that either...
Still spell will be usless since spellstrike call out that you need a free hand even if the spell has no somatic component. The only answer I come up by the moment is that we where all wrong about 2H imparing the use of spellstrike. But still i think it need some clarification.
You are confusing spellstrike with spell combat, spell combat requires a free hand, spellstrike requires you to just cast the spell.
In order to cast the spell you simply hold the bow with one hand, cast the spell then you weild the bow with two hands in order to deliver it via spellstrike, it's really no different than a standard magus using his weapon in two hands in order to use spellstrike (but not spell combat).
You are confusing spellstrike with spell combat, spell combat requires a free hand, spellstrike requires you to just cast the spell.
In order to cast the spell you simply hold the bow with one hand, cast the spell then you weild the bow with two hands in order to deliver it via spellstrike, it's really no different than a standard magus using his weapon in two hands in order to use spellstrike (but not spell combat).
Mmm, well, it makes senses in some way, but the second part says
At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target
spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect
with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to
the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray
effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast
are lost. This ability replaces spell recall and improved
spell recall.
So is still hinted that he is supposed to be able to cast and full attack as per Spell Combat.
You are confusing spellstrike with spell combat, spell combat requires a free hand, spellstrike requires you to just cast the spell.
In order to cast the spell you simply hold the bow with one hand, cast the spell then you weild the bow with two hands in order to deliver it via spellstrike, it's really no different than a standard magus using his weapon in two hands in order to use spellstrike (but not spell combat).Mmm, well, it makes senses in some way, but the second part says
At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target
spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect
with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to
the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray
effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast
are lost. This ability replaces spell recall and improved
spell recall.So is still hinted that he is supposed to be able to cast and full attack as per Spell Combat.
For some reason i have thought that the myrmidarch replaces spell combat, i was wrong.
Anyway i think that you have found something, go to the ultimate combat errata thread and post what you have found.
Done, hope it gets claryfied. I'm really hoping they open up for the use of 2H when using spell combat, it could be a nice kick for str magus who seems to be underplayed as of now.
Done, hope it gets claryfied. I'm really hoping they open up for the use of 2H when using spell combat, it could be a nice kick for str magus who seems to be underplayed as of now.
The thing is if they open the door for 2H when using spellcombat then the magus would get a serious boost at higher levels (12+) and i am not sure they would want that.
Myrmidarch + Pistol :-)
Done, hope it gets claryfied. I'm really hoping they open up for the use of 2H when using spell combat, it could be a nice kick for str magus who seems to be underplayed as of now.The thing is if they open the door for 2H when using spellcombat then the magus would get a serious boost at higher levels (12+) and i am not sure they would want that.
Probably you'r right that they won't, but still i feel they should. I mean, you are still trading 19 AC (11 + 8 angelic armor) and 60 feet speed (light armor with haste) with 17 AC (14 + 3 mithral fullplate) and 40 feet speed (medium armor with haste) for a couple damage, not accounting initiative, reflex save and ranged touch for ray. is not so OP to warrant the limitation imho. Especially if you account for what the barbarian seems capable of doing lately ^^.
And beside, you can teorically be in an SPIKED ADAMANTINE FULLPLATE, it feels so freaking right for you to strike with all your two handed might with a blade crakling of pure arcane energy. Isn't that the spirit of the magus?
Myrmidarch + Pistol :-)
Though it could work, that's not the spirit.
The myrmidarch is a skilled specialist, using magic to supplement and augment his martial mastery. Less inclined to mix the two than a typical magus, the myrmidarch seeks supremacy with blade, bow, and armor.
And beside, he is competent in bows, crossbows ecc. but not in firarms.
I have the same question regarding the Myrmidarch and spell combat. Has this been answered?
Sling, light crossbow, throwing axe/hammer/dagger, net are all one handed ranged weapons.
The Myrmidarch text specifically calls out "bow."
And the level 11 ability specifies "using a full-attack action."
By your interpretation this level 11 ability would be worthless for a bow user.
I see absolutely nothing in the text that supports your position Dreadsky that a bow user should somehow be able to use this.
Hmm...
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
According to Spell combat (above). A Magus can not used a range weapon and use spell combat. I've looked for a exclusion to this within the Myrmidarch Archetype and so far I have not.
Ranged Spellstrike works as spell strike however you must use a ranged weapon to deliver the spell.
Spellstrike allows the use of Spell combat.
Spell combat allows you to cast the spell and take your attacks.
It is currently a free action to change your grip on the bow.
So I guess it works like this:
1. Free Action, I Remove my left hand from by bow
2. Declare Spell combat, take a -2 to all attacks
3. Cast defensively: Get Ranged Touch spell off
4. Free Action, I put my left hand back on the bow
5. I use Ranged Spell Strike
6. Shoot Arrow.
It is tricky, I could really see someone reading the rules saying that spell combat does not work with Ranged Spellstirke, and as such you can not use ranged combat at all. The reason is that Spell combat say only light or one handed melee weapons.
We have to assume that Ranged Spellstike modifies spellstrike and then modifies spellcombat. If it does not then one could never use Ranged Spellstrike.
IF it does not then
Round 1
1. I cast ranged touch spell and wait till the next round in order to use Ranged Spellstrike.
Round 2
1. I use ranged spellstrike (sorry you can't, as the spell was cast last round).
So I go with the thought that it works as my first example does. But those are the two options that I see.
Thank you for your analysis Mr Green. I was thinking along similar lines.
Clearly ther is confusion on this issue. Probably have to get a ruling from the DM/group as I don't see any authoritative ruling.
Spellstrike allows the use of Spell combat.
More accurately, Spell Combat allows the use of Spellstrike with a spell cast during it. Big difference.
Spell combat allows you to cast the spell and take your attacks.It is currently a free action to change your grip on the bow.
So I guess it works like this:
1. Free Action, I Remove my left hand from by bow
2. Declare Spell combat, take a -2 to all attacks
3. Cast defensively: Get Ranged Touch spell off
4. Free Action, I put my left hand back on the bow
5. I use Ranged Spell Strike
6. Shoot Arrow.It is tricky, I could really see someone reading the rules saying that spell combat does not work with Ranged Spellstirke, and as such you can...
Spell Combat explicitly states you may take your full melee attacks in addition to casting a spell (which may include a free attack as part of casting the spell in the case of touch attacks and ranged touch attacks). If you have a ranged weapon you could use Ranged Spellstrike to deliver the spell cast as part of Spell Combat, but you would need to take a full attack iteration with a melee weapon. It's no different than a normal magus using Spell Combat to A) cast scorching ray and make a ranged touch attack with a -2 penalty then B) take a 5 ft step and make a full melee attack with a -2 penalty, except the ranged touch spell can be delivered with a ranged weapon attack. The only way you're going to do this with a single weapon is if it is a throwing weapon or has some functionality to make both ranged and melee attacks.
As for the 11th-level improvement of Ranged Spellstrike, it is self-negating due to its wording and doesn't technically work RAW. I summarized here, and offered what we use for a house ruled errata in my home game. It's what I thought was most likely RAI.
As for the 11th-level improvement of Ranged Spellstrike, it is self-negating due to its wording and doesn't technically work RAW.
It can kind of work.
Ranged Spellstrike works with "a single-target touch attack ranged spell"
And at 11th level "a multiple-target spell" with a "ray or line of effect"
The problem is those spells don't have a Target line, they have an Effect.
However, we can use the Close Range arcana to determine that they don't mean a spell with a Target line, just a spell that has a target involved in the execution.
Close Range (Ex): The magus can deliver ray spells that feature a ranged touch attack as melee touch spells. He can use a ranged touch attack spell that targets more than one creature (such as scorching ray)...
Scorching Ray: Effect one or more rays
So Scorching Ray has no Target line (only Effect) but Close Range defines it as a spell that targets one or more creatures (and features a ranged touch attack).
This means Scorching Ray also qualifies for Ranged Spellstrike.
And if Scorching Ray works, any ranged touch spell that targets something also works. Acid Arrow, for example.
For the 11th-level improvement, it works if you quicken the spell. Quickened Scorching Ray (swift), hand on bow (free), full attack with bow (full). Assuming he has haste, or rapid shot or something, three attacks and each one has a scorching ray if it hits. (This does require the magus to be higher than 11, or use some method of reducing his modified spell slots. Either a rod he drops after casting, or maybe some traits/feats)
As for the 11th-level improvement of Ranged Spellstrike, it is self-negating due to its wording and doesn't technically work RAW.It can kind of work.
Ranged Spellstrike works with "a single-target touch attack ranged spell"
And at 11th level "a multiple-target spell" with a "ray or line of effect"The problem is those spells don't have a Target line, they have an Effect.
However, we can use the Close Range arcana to determine that they don't mean a spell with a Target line, just a spell that has a target involved in the execution.
Close Range (Ex): The magus can deliver ray spells that feature a ranged touch attack as melee touch spells. He can use a ranged touch attack spell that targets more than one creature (such as scorching ray)...
Scorching Ray: Effect one or more rays
So Scorching Ray has no Target line (only Effect) but Close Range defines it as a spell that targets one or more creatures (and features a ranged touch attack).
This means Scorching Ray also qualifies for Ranged Spellstrike.
And if Scorching Ray works, any ranged touch spell that targets something also works. Acid Arrow, for example.
For the 11th-level improvement, it works if you quicken the spell. Quickened Scorching Ray (swift), hand on bow (free), full attack with bow (full). Assuming he has haste, or rapid shot or something, three attacks and each one has a scorching ray if it hits. (This does require the magus to be higher than 11, or use some method of reducing his modified spell slots. Either a rod he drops after casting, or maybe some traits/feats)
Yeah, but it's definitely something that could use a well-worded errata to make it functional in the way its designer intended. I mean, the "up to the maximum of the spell" part has the caveat of only limiting rays. If you want to get totally absurd with semantic arguments, one could say that means a quickened reach shocking grasp (it's a ranged touch attack but not a ray) could be cast as a swift action and then applied to every attack of a hasted, rapid-shotting lvl 11+ myrmidarch.
I think RAI is relatively clear for it but they really, really need to avoid using the word "target" unless they are referring to a Target as defined by spell stat blocks. You don't need to target a scorching ray, which is why you can use the effect(s) to attack a square and have a 50% chance of hitting a creature with total concealment (which you cannot target due to having line of effect but not line of sight).
On a somewhat related note, do you know if there's ever been any official ruling for PFRPG about how many attacks per round you can make with chill touch or similar spells? A quickened reach chill touch or frostbite could be workable with the 11th-level power as written as well.
On a somewhat related note, do you know if there's ever been any official ruling for PFRPG about how many attacks per round you can make with chill touch or similar spells?
"Official" errata/FAQ? No.
"Official" Dev message board posting? Yes.
This is kind of out of context, so bear with me, or click the link and read the thread.
People asked about Produce Flame and if they can make iterative attacks with it. James said it's a spell, not a weapon, so "No iterative attacks with produce flame as a result, since it only grants the one attack per round as a touch attack."
Someone asked if you could just keep touching as if with unarmed strikes (iterative touches from high BAB), James replied:
It's not just like performing unarmed strikes, since a) it doesn't provoke an AoO and b) doesn't require use of Improved Unarmed Strike. It's a spell, and should therefore function similarly to other touch spells like chill touch. Iterative attacks are SOLELY the province of weapons (and of spells that specifically work like weapons)—touch attacks and natural weapons do not work this way. Therefore, one touch per round with a produce flame, or one hurled flame per round.
I see Spellstrike in particular as overwriting this, you still make the iterative attacks because you're attacking with a weapon, it's just that on hit, you discharge the spell. So if you use, say, shocking grasp, and miss, then hit, it discharges on the hit. And if you use, say, chill touch, it goes off on each hit until it's expended.
People can (and have) ruled a bunch more limitations on Spellstrike in order to make it less powerful (and in some cases, barely usable), so YMMV.
Closing quote from James: "But again... in your game, feel free to apply the rules as you want. What I explain above is both how I would run things in MY game, and how we assume the spell works for the baseline of the rules themselves as well."
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I think it's the reference to 'using spellstrike' in the Ranged Spellstrike text which leads to confusion, as it seems to imply all the various rules and limits related to the regular Spellstrike apply to the Myrmidarch class feature too. Personally I don't think that's what it means. Ranged Spellstrike is an improvement and modification of the Magus's regular Spellstrike feature, it's more specific than the original Spellstrike rules, so overrules them (just as, say, a Barbarian's Tireless Rage feature modifies and overrules their lower level Rage feature). It's meant to be (a lot) better than regular spellstrike (the poor Myrmidarch literally gets nothing but penalties compared with a vanilla Magus for his first three levels, and loses all his Spell Recall features as well - that's a whole lot of being sucky if there's not a big payoff at the end of the long slog...).
If you read the text without assuming that all the regular Spellstrike limitations apply, it's pretty simple: cast a ranged touch spell, but it goes off with a ranged weapon attack instead of as a ranged touch attack. Or, put another way, instead of the ranged touch attack roll you get to make as part of casting the spell, you get to make a ranged weapon attack roll instead. When the Myrmidarch hits level 11 he can, as a full attack action, cast a multiple target ranged touch spell and make one attack roll for that spell with each of his iterative attacks until he runs out of targets / rays.
So, a level 4 Myrmidarch can move as a Move action, then cast acid splash (for example) via Ranged Spellstrike as a Standard action, and make the attack with his ranged weapon instead of as a ranged touch attack. He gets the benefits of the weapon's range and critical threat range on the spell, but has to target normal instead of touch AC, although he does get to roll the weapon's damage as well, as usual.
It's the same basic principle as the normal Spellstrike - you take the 'free' touch attack roll which is part and parcel of casting the spell as a weapon attack instead. At level 11 the ability is better, as you can use a full-attack action to cast an applicable multi-target spell (such as scorching ray) and add one ray (or 'use' or whatever) of the spell to each of your full attacks until you run dry. That's specific to the Ranged Spellstrike class feature - it doesn't somehow get nerfed by the limitations of the lower-level Spellstrike feature it's a better version of it - the casting of the spell and the full weapon attacks are all rolled into one full-attack action specific to users of Ranged Spellstrike at level 11 or higher.
Since Spell Combat is melee specific though, you can't combine the two to use that 'free' attack that comes with the spell as an extra attack with your full attack action (the vanilla Magus's usual 'cast shocking grasp and take the free attack as a weapon attack via Spellstrike, then have all his iterative attacks too' routine).
Admittedly, the Myrmidarch text could use some clearing up, and the archetype probably needs errata anyway (are they really meant to have two versions of Fighter Training that stack to a higher equivalent Fighter level for Feat requirement purposes than an actual Fighter?).
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So it does work in a very liberal reading of the text.
while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action
In this case the 'melee weapon' refers to the bow that was being held in one hand. It never says what kind of attack you have to make with that weapon.
1. Free Action, I Remove my left hand from by bow (it then becomes an improvised club)
2. Declare Spell combat, take a -2 to all attacks
3. Cast defensively: Get Ranged Touch spell off
4. Free Action, I put my left hand back on the bow (it now becomes a 2h ranged weapon)
5. I use Ranged Spell Strike
6. Make attack with weapon. (since the 'melee weapon' refers to what you declared as your melee weapon)
The counter argument I can see is that it is no longer a melee weapon so you can no longer make attacks with it. Well, if you can argue that you can still stab someone with the arrow. Or just stop playing.
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With a bow a myrmidarch can only use ranged spellstrike not spell combat.
For that he needs something that counts as a onehanded melee weapon and a ranged weapon at once.
Besides throwing weapons there is the halfling sling staff, which is a cool weapon for a myrmidarch.
You can use spellcombat, ranged spellstrike, you can make AoOs, flank and do all those nice things that make a magus strong.