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So I was thinking about the spellbook rules as we’ve had various spellbook discussions and I was looking at this rule that I suspect is generally overlooked or handwaved but would have major effects on the class if enforced.
“A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has 100 pages.”
What this means is that not counting cantrips and only counting the spells you get for free you will have basically filled a 100 page spellbook by 13th level.
5 1st level spells (1st and 2nd level) = 4 pages
4 2nd level spells (3rd and 4th level) = 8 pages
4 3rd level spells (5th and 6th level) = 12 pages
4 4th level spells (7th and 8th level) = 16 pages
4 5th level spells (9th and 10th level) = 20 pages
4 6th level spells (11th and 12th level) = 24 pages
2 7th level spels (13th level) = 14 pages
That would be a total of 99 pages filled in a 100 page book. Again, not counting 0 level spells. Which technically should be counted, since it specifically says “A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells”
Now reasonably Wizards would have more than 4 spells of each level, but that would now mean keeping multiple spell books. The way many on here describe their spell selection, we would need a veritable travel library of spellbooks.
Additionally, when we look at the bonded object rule, it states
“A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared.”
Which begs an additional question. Can they cast any spell they know or any spell in the spellbook they have on them. And if it is “spellbook” does that mean one book has to be designated, or can a wizard study multiple spellbooks, considering only so many spells can fit in a given standard spellbook.
This could mean Wizards would have to have multiple spellbooks not just for safety, but for utility, since what they may need for a given encounter since arcane isn’t attached to spells known, but spells in the spellbook they are carrying.
Enforcing this rule means spell mastery is suddenly much more valuable for higher level spells that take up more pages. It would explain why wizards have towers full of tomes of arcane writings. It could be a serious limitation on the power of an arcane bonded weapon and could create an entire new detail for a wizards daily preparation by adding the question “which book am I taking today”.
Typically, higher level wizards in games I've seen solve this problem by buying or crafting a Blessed Book, which weighs 1 pound but has 1000 much harder to fill pages.
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There is no limit to the number of spellbooks a wizard can own, or use, or prepare from on a given day. "His spellbook" is any book that he has written himself, IMO.
So, you are not really limited by the 100 page limit... it just means it is time to get a fresh book (or a blessed book!).
MY current level 6 wizard has filled the travel spellbook he started with (50 pages, I went with this because it was lighter...) and has a good start on his second. He carries both of these with him and they basically function as his "one" spellbook, though I do keep track of the exact contents of each, just in case one gets lost or damaged.
For purposes of the bonded item, I would say the wizard can use it to cast any spell he has written into a book that he owns, and is in functional condition. I don't even think I'd make the wizard carry it on him necessarily.
When your first book is filled go and start filling a new one, if you want you can bound them together in order to have one huge book.
This is really a non-issue. When you're low level, all of your spells can fit into one book. By the time you fill up a book, you'll have the cash to either buy a Blessed Book or have a Bag of Holding. Each spellbook costs 15g and weighs 3 lbs., you're not going to overload a character even if he has to carry a few books.
It does make protecting your spells a bit more complicated, but once again, by the time you really care, you can afford Blessed Books or other forms of protection.
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Typically, higher level wizards in games I've seen solve this problem by buying or crafting a Blessed Book, which weighs 1 pound but has 1000 much harder to fill pages.
It also costs 12,500 gold.
I could see the Wizard keeping tomes of spellbooks at home as "backup" in case "the" book is lost/stolen/damaged and traveling with the blessed book when they can afford it, but if you follow RAW it really becomes a must buy item after a certain level.
It also costs 12,500 gold.
Sure. Well, 6,250 to craft.
Honestly, by the point one is necessary I'm usually spending enough money buying scrolls of extra spells I want to add to my spellbook that an extra 6k to fit them all in one book barely even registers. Once or twice I've played a wizard in a campaign in which we found enough spellbooks that I didn't feel it necessary to do that, but it's been a lot more common that a substantial chunk of my wealth goes into my spellbook, one way or another.
On the question of what counts as the spellbooks when casting from a bonded item, something helpfull is to think about Ghosts.
A ghost has a spectral duplicate of whatever is owns. It loses them when someone takes the item as their own.
By extension, you can say wizards spell books are the same. Just like how a ghost doesn't need to carry the items to own them, the wizard can own books not on his person. As long at someone else doesn't take possession of them, he can access them.
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On the question of what counts as the spellbooks when casting from a bonded item, something helpfull is to think about Ghosts.
A ghost has a spectral duplicate of whatever is owns. It loses them when someone takes the item as their own.
By extension, you can say wizards spell books are the same. Just like how a ghost doesn't need to carry the items to own them, the wizard can own books not on his person. As long at someone else doesn't take possession of them, he can access them.
Why would you make that extension?
It doesn't say "Spells known" it says spells in the spellbook.
That is like saying that since ghosts are incorporal, wizards are incorporal. There is no reason to extend a benefit of one class to another.
Now assuming you have a blessed book, certainly you would have access to all of the spells in the blessed book as long as you have the time to copy them all in.
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It also costs 12,500 gold.
Sure. Well, 6,250 to craft.
Honestly, by the point one is necessary I'm usually spending enough money buying scrolls of extra spells I want to add to my spellbook that an extra 6k to fit them all in one book barely even registers. Once or twice I've played a wizard in a campaign in which we found enough spellbooks that I didn't feel it necessary to do that, but it's been a lot more common that a substantial chunk of my wealth goes into my spellbook, one way or another.
Which is fair, since that is both a feat and a monetary cost.
reposted on account of my poor math.
average cost of writing spells into normal book if there are no 0 level spells is 50gp per page.
average cost for a blessed book a little over 6gp if you make it, and 12.5 if you buy it.
big crazy efficiency difference, to say nothing of the other convenience factors, its a monster winner economically.
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reposted on account of my poor math.
average cost of writing spells into normal book if there are no 0 level spells is 50gp per page.
average cost for a blessed book a little over 6gp if you make it, and 12.5 if you buy it.
big crazy efficiency difference, to say nothing of the other convenience factors, its a monster winner economically.
Absolutely. I think it is more or less a must have. But it is still a fairly expensive item, particularly at low to mid levels.
that is similar to walking into the proverbial everything mart and asking for a normal non-magical sword, and the shopkeeper says, or you could buy this magic sword for a fourth the cost of the normal sword, and it glows. I'm am not sure but i cant think of any other magical item with a similar total cost of ownership advantage over its mundane analogue that resembles this. Truly blessed.
for an extra 1000gp(500gp self made) you can make it intelligent with empathy, and 30ft vision and hearing, so it can alert you of thievery attempts.
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It doesn't say "Spells known" it says spells in the spellbook.
I would interpreter it as a spell that is both know and easily accessible for a rapid perusal when the wizard prepare his spells, so the wizard need to have be relevant spellbook with himself while travelling. This is more of less what the RAW say, slightly expanded with my interpretation.
Following what I think is RAI if he has left the relevant book at home but the time elapsed is small (a couple of days or so) I wouldn't make using the bonded object a problem, at worst an easy spellcraft roll.
If he hadn't touched the book for weeks it will be a very hard roll if allowed at all.
And remember the other requirement for using the bonded item: the wizard need to be capable to cast the spells.
A wizard can record spells that he isn't capable to cast in his spellbook.
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It doesn't say "Spells known" it says spells in the spellbook.
I would interpreter it as a spell that is both know and easily accessible for a rapid perusal when the wizard prepare his spells, so the wizard need to have be relevant spellbook with himself while travelling. This is more of less what the RAW say, slightly expanded with my interpretation.
Following what I think is RAI if he has left the relevant book at home but the time elapsed is small (a couple of days or so) I wouldn't make using the bonded object a problem, at worst an easy spellcraft roll.
If he hadn't touched the book for weeks it will be a very hard roll if allowed at all.And remember the other requirement for using the bonded item: the wizard need to be capable to cast the spells.
A wizard can record spells that he isn't capable to cast in his spellbook.
Spells known is a regularly used phrase. If they meant "Spells known" I think they would have put "Spells known".
I think it is to put the same limit on the bonded item that is on the wizard, specifically that if you don't have it with you, in your spellbook, you can't cast it.
Otherwise they would have put spells known.
Now if that means in one of the spellbooks you have on you or in one spellbook is the question that is debatable.
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that is similar to walking into the proverbial everything mart and asking for a normal non-magical sword, and the shopkeeper says, or you could buy this magic sword for a fourth the cost of the normal sword, and it glows. I'm am not sure but i cant think of any other magical item with a similar total cost of ownership advantage over its mundane analogue that resembles this. Truly blessed.
for an extra 1000gp(500gp self made) you can make it intelligent with empathy, and 30ft vision and hearing, so it can alert you of thievery attempts.
True, but it does take the cost of a spellbook from the relatively mundane to rather substantial.
And that changes the "Back up" spell book equation significantly when the base cost is 12,500.
that is similar to walking into the proverbial everything mart and asking for a normal non-magical sword, and the shopkeeper says, or you could buy this magic sword for a fourth the cost of the normal sword, and it glows. I'm am not sure but i cant think of any other magical item with a similar total cost of ownership advantage over its mundane analogue that resembles this. Truly blessed.
for an extra 1000gp(500gp self made) you can make it intelligent with empathy, and 30ft vision and hearing, so it can alert you of thievery attempts.True, but it does take the cost of a spellbook from the relatively mundane to rather substantial.
And that changes the "Back up" spell book equation significantly when the base cost is 12,500.
that 12,500 is total cost, that is the main point i was trying to get at.
the blessed book costs 12,500 flat purchased. It waives the cost of writing spells into it that a "mundane" book has and it has 1000 pages.the mundane book is 15gp per 100 pages, or 150gp for an equivalent set of tomes to a blessed book, however the average cost of writing non-zero level spells into a "mundane" book is 50gp per page. which makes the "mundane" book(s) the rather substantial investment at 50150gp, and the blessed book the cheap way to go at only 12,500gp.
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that is similar to walking into the proverbial everything mart and asking for a normal non-magical sword, and the shopkeeper says, or you could buy this magic sword for a fourth the cost of the normal sword, and it glows. I'm am not sure but i cant think of any other magical item with a similar total cost of ownership advantage over its mundane analogue that resembles this. Truly blessed.
for an extra 1000gp(500gp self made) you can make it intelligent with empathy, and 30ft vision and hearing, so it can alert you of thievery attempts.True, but it does take the cost of a spellbook from the relatively mundane to rather substantial.
And that changes the "Back up" spell book equation significantly when the base cost is 12,500.that 12,500 is total cost, that is the main point i was trying to get at.
the blessed book costs 12,500 flat purchased. It waives the cost of writing spells into it that a "mundane" book has and it has 1000 pages.
the mundane book is 15gp per 100 pages, or 150gp for an equivalent set of tomes to a blessed book, however the average cost of writing non-zero level spells into a "mundane" book is 50gp per page. which makes the "mundane" book(s) the rather substantial investment at 50150gp, and the blessed book the cheap way to go at only 12,500gp.
It is a flat cost, but you will still need a back up spellbook and the base cost of that book 12,500.
So a wizard with two spellbooks will be investing 25K of WBL (half if you make it) and lots and lots of time.
Which is fine, but clearly a cost of the class once you reach mid levels.
if you think the gm is after your book then back it up, though it might be fun to go on quest or quests to either recover the book or rebuild the library from scratch. good fun, maybe add some gravy on top at the end for the inconvenience, a few more spells, or robe of the archmagi, etc. the book is a necessity as soon as it can be available. not having a blessed book is wasteful of resources.
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if you think the gm is after your book then back it up, though it might be fun to go on quest or quests to either recover the book or rebuild the library from scratch. good fun, maybe add some gravy on top at the end for the inconvenience, a few more spells, or robe of the archmagi, etc. the book is a necessity as soon as it can be available. not having a blessed book is wasteful of resources.
I think it more valuable that any weapon a fighter may have, and yet a fighter always has a back up weapon.
As I said in another thread to someone who commented that a spellbook would never be out of a wizards custody long enough for someone to take it, as even if a Wizard were using the services of a lady of the night.
"So it is reasonable that a wizard will hold his spellbook while engaging in some fun at a local brothel because it is that valuable, but it is unreasonable to expect them to spend the resources to make at least a rudimentary back up book in case it is lost or destroyed?"
My take comes more from the people who constantly claim Wizards have less costs for equipment than other classes, when overlooking some of the inherent costs associated with being a wizard.
It doesn't say "Spells known" it says spells in the spellbook.
I would interpreter it as a spell that is both know and easily accessible for a rapid perusal when the wizard prepare his spells, so the wizard need to have be relevant spellbook with himself while travelling. This is more of less what the RAW say, slightly expanded with my interpretation.
Following what I think is RAI if he has left the relevant book at home but the time elapsed is small (a couple of days or so) I wouldn't make using the bonded object a problem, at worst an easy spellcraft roll.
If he hadn't touched the book for weeks it will be a very hard roll if allowed at all.And remember the other requirement for using the bonded item: the wizard need to be capable to cast the spells.
A wizard can record spells that he isn't capable to cast in his spellbook.Spells known is a regularly used phrase. If they meant "Spells known" I think they would have put "Spells known".
I think it is to put the same limit on the bonded item that is on the wizard, specifically that if you don't have it with you, in your spellbook, you can't cast it.
Otherwise they would have put spells known.
Now if that means in one of the spellbooks you have on you or in one spellbook is the question that is debatable.
"Spells known" is only used in reference to spontaneous casters. Wizards don't "know" spells; they write them down in books/scrolls or "prepare" them but never "know".
I think Diego is correct in his interpretation. They did not use "spells known" because that language is not used in reference to prepared spell casters and it would have caused even more confusion than leaving this ability ambiguous.
As for the Blessed Book cost issue, I imagine your interest in this topic Ciretose came out of the other spell-book thread, so if the DM has made it a point to go after your book, a spare for 6250 (self-made) is a real bargain for the peace of mind. IF the DM does not target your book (I don't believe many do regularly), one book is the deal of a century.
The consensus reached in the other thread was that reasonable protections for the book is all that is needed. Having only one book, warding it up with a few spells, and keeping it someplace safe (like a bag of holding or a handy haversack), is enough for most players/DMs.
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My player had always kept a reserve spellbook from the middle levels onward even if very rarely I go against them.
The last wizard that didn't do that was in my second campaign in 1985 or so. He fell in a magical fire trap, failed some sawing throw and lost two books with most of his level 2, all his level 3 and 4 spells and some level 5 (page count was different at the time). Till he got home he didn't used any of the memorized spell he has left.
For a period he had to play with what he was capable to write down of his memorized spells, a few spells from old captured spellbooks he sill had kept and huge gaps in his spell repertory.
It was lesson learned from that time onward for every wizard who played with me. Even those that weren't there at the time know the tale or know that it is a good idea to keep a spare spellbook.
It helps that my approach to spells is that those in the wizard spellbook, as described in the core rule, are written in shorthand and essentially are diagrams and instructions on how to memorize that spell but that the actual books about a spell present in a wizard or magical school library are a complete different thing.
Those books describe the spell effect, the possible interactions with other magical fields, the theory about why the spell work, experiments done with it and so on.
You can envision them like mathematical or geometrical formulas and theorems: the spellbook writing is the formula (to find the area of a triangle you do base * height/2), the extended spell description is why you use that formula and can have a size ranging from a pamphlet to a weighty tome. So in the rare situation when the players have the actual chance to storm a wizard tower and loot it at their leisure the treasure can be hundred of books, each one describing a single spell in depth, with notes about the magic items that can be made with it, variant versions know, comments about what creatures have show a particular resistance or weakness to it and tons of other stuff.
Today it would contain a commentary about interactions with metamagic too.
No wizard will bring that kind of book with him on the field, they would weight a lot and be unwieldy, but every wizard worth his salt would love to have them at home for a complete study of the spell when he has time to spare and as reference material and they make a great back up copy.
Most would be thieves will have problems running away with teens or hundred of books, some of which are actually describing a spell, other that would be creature descriptions, theoretical materials, geographical books and even numbers of Elf Babes & Chain Mail Bikini Goddesses disguised as ponderous tomes.
This is a very interesting post, that makes me consider how many interesting details concerning the PC's everyday life we don't consider in a thorough manner.
I guess (forgetting a little bit about the existence of the blessed book) the fluff of this rule really makes up for the existence of huge magical libraries and wizard's towers.
Concerning the bonded object rule I would accept any "tome" written, copied, claimed somehow by the wizard as known. A rule could for this could be considering any spellbook from which the wizard has previously prepared spells...
I would certainly become more serious with spellbooks pages, burden and carrying capacity with my skinny wizard... ^^
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"Spells known" is only used in reference to spontaneous casters. Wizards don't "know" spells; they write them down in books/scrolls or "prepare" them but never "know".
I think Diego is correct in his interpretation. They did not use "spells known" because that language is not used in reference to prepared spell casters and it would have caused even more confusion than leaving this ability ambiguous.
I don't think it is ambiguous at all.
The concept is that if you have your spell book (which along with your component pouch has all you need to prepare all the spells in it) you can cast a spell, and that if you don't...well you don't.
I don't see any reason why it is assumed that any spell they have ever prepared or learned would be available.
The exact wording is.
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared."
If it was "Any spell the wizard has learned", sure. But it is specifically "In his spellbook" and is capable of casting.
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My player had always kept a reserve spellbook from the middle levels onward even if very rarely I go against them.
The last wizard that didn't do that was in my second campaign in 1985 or so. He fell in a magical fire trap, failed some sawing throw and lost two books with most of his level 2, all his level 3 and 4 spells and some level 5 (page count was different at the time). Till he got home he didn't used any of the memorized spell he has left.
For a period he had to play with what he was capable to write down of his memorized spells, a few spells from old captured spellbooks he sill had kept and huge gaps in his spell repertory.It was lesson learned from that time onward for every wizard who played with me. Even those that weren't there at the time know the tale or know that it is a good idea to keep a spare spellbook.
What a cruel GM (sarcasm)
I agree with you about the Wizard's libraries and towers, and I think that is the way the setting is conceived.
Would also give good reason for people to steal other people's spellbooks...
"Spells known" is only used in reference to spontaneous casters. Wizards don't "know" spells; they write them down in books/scrolls or "prepare" them but never "know".
I think Diego is correct in his interpretation. They did not use "spells known" because that language is not used in reference to prepared spell casters and it would have caused even more confusion than leaving this ability ambiguous.
I don't think it is ambiguous at all.
The concept is that if you have your spell book (which along with your component pouch has all you need to prepare all the spells in it) you can cast a spell, and that if you don't...well you don't.
I don't see any reason why it is assumed that any spell they have ever prepared or learned would be available.
The exact wording is.
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared."
If it was "Any spell the wizard has learned", sure. But it is specifically "In his spellbook" and is capable of casting.
It is ambiguous. For example, if I'm a level 7 wizard and I have all of my 1-3rd level spells written in one spell book and all of my 4th level spells in another, which book do I spontaneously cast from? I have used both books that day to prepare my spells, so which is it?
"I don't see any reason why it is assumed that any spell they have ever prepared or learned would be available."
I don't know if it would apply to any spell he EVER learned, but it should apply to any spell in any book he currently possesses. As you mention, the exact wording gives no rules for "attuning" or choosing which spell-book to use, so it has to fall to a reasonable interpretation of RAI.
Any spell he has ever known? No. Any spell in any book he currently possesses? Yes.
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"Spells known" is only used in reference to spontaneous casters. Wizards don't "know" spells; they write them down in books/scrolls or "prepare" them but never "know".
I think Diego is correct in his interpretation. They did not use "spells known" because that language is not used in reference to prepared spell casters and it would have caused even more confusion than leaving this ability ambiguous.
I don't think it is ambiguous at all.
The concept is that if you have your spell book (which along with your component pouch has all you need to prepare all the spells in it) you can cast a spell, and that if you don't...well you don't.
I don't see any reason why it is assumed that any spell they have ever prepared or learned would be available.
The exact wording is.
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared."
If it was "Any spell the wizard has learned", sure. But it is specifically "In his spellbook" and is capable of casting.
It is ambiguous. For example, if I'm a level 7 wizard and I have all of my 1-3rd level spells written in one spell book and all of my 4th level spells in another, which book do I spontaneously cast from? I have used both books that day to prepare my spells, so which is it?
"I don't see any reason why it is assumed that any spell they have ever prepared or learned would be available."
I don't know if it would apply to any spell he EVER learned, but it should apply to any spell in any book he currently possesses. As you mention, the exact wording gives no rules for "attuning" or choosing which spell-book to use, so it has to fall to a reasonable interpretation of RAI.
Any spell he has ever known? No. Any spell in any book he currently possesses? Yes.
Currently possesses I'm fine with. But that isn't the same thing as "Spells you know how to cast".
If you lose your spellbook, or you are using a back up spellbook, would your arcane bonded item still have access to spells you don't have in your current spellbook.
That is the question.
If you lose your spellbook, or you are using a back up spellbook, would your arcane bonded item still have access to spells you don't have in your current spellbook.
That is the question.
I don't think you're going to find an answer unless a Paizo dev comes on here to answer it.
Personally, if I were the DM, I'd say you can spontaneously cast from any spell-book you currently have and any spell-book you've used to prepare your current spell selection.
Example: a 7th level wizard has his 1st-3rd spells in one book, 4th in another. He used both books this morning to prepare spells. Later that day, the book with 1st-3rd spells is stolen. He still possesses the 4th level book. He can spontaneously cast from either book because he prepared spells from the stolen one and possesses the other (although he prepared from it too).
That's just how I'd do it. I'm guessing you'd be harder on the wizard. It GM territory without further clarification.
I think this is solved simply by a matter of basic sense and inference.
A wizard may add spells when gaining a level 'to his spellbook'. If we are going to rule that, in reference to a bonded item, it may only apply to a spellbook that the wizard has on him, then we must also consider that, in a technical sense, a wizard may only ever add spells when gaining a level to this same singular spellbook. Since it has been demonstrated that merely levelling will occupy more than a single purchasable spellbook, then either the wizard can no longer accomplish the task of levelling up...or 'spellbook' is a reference to the body of spells known to a wizard, regardless of whether or not they are presently in his immediate possession.
Typically, higher level wizards in games I've seen solve this problem by buying or crafting a Blessed Book, which weighs 1 pound but has 1000 much harder to fill pages.Where can I find the information/stats on the blessed book?
Should be in the Core rulebook, wondrous items section.
Should be in the Core rulebook, wondrous items section.Typically, higher level wizards in games I've seen solve this problem by buying or crafting a Blessed Book, which weighs 1 pound but has 1000 much harder to fill pages.Where can I find the information/stats on the blessed book?
Or right here.
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I think this is solved simply by a matter of basic sense and inference.
A wizard may add spells when gaining a level 'to his spellbook'. If we are going to rule that, in reference to a bonded item, it may only apply to a spellbook that the wizard has on him, then we must also consider that, in a technical sense, a wizard may only ever add spells when gaining a level to this same singular spellbook. Since it has been demonstrated that merely levelling will occupy more than a single purchasable spellbook, then either the wizard can no longer accomplish the task of levelling up...or 'spellbook' is a reference to the body of spells known to a wizard, regardless of whether or not they are presently in his immediate possession.
By your logic, the wizard should be able to learn any spell he knows regardless of where his spellbook is at the time he is studying, regardless of if he wrote the given spell into the spellbook he is carrying at the time.
Which of course, is ridiculous.
The question is, does a wizard have to have a spell in his possession, that is in the spellbook he is carrying, in order to cast a spell "from his spellbook."
I agree it would take a dev ruling, but it seem to make logical sense that the intent was not to give Wizards access to spells they could not ordinarily have access to in their spellbook.
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I'd go with a simple rule. If you could have prepared spells from the book that day, as in had the opportunity without expending any additional time or resources (no *I could teleport and grab it* crap), then it would be a valid target for the bond ability.
But that book you didn't hold in your hands this morning? Sorry, you shouldn't have left it at home if you wanted to cast spells from it.
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I'd go with a simple rule. If you could have prepared spells from the book that day, as in had the opportunity without expending any additional time or resources (no *I could teleport and grab it* crap), then it would be a valid target for the bond ability.
But that book you didn't hold in your hands this morning? Sorry, you shouldn't have left it at home if you wanted to cast spells from it.
This meakes sense to me as well.