Consider: a halfling is size Small. They're going to average about 3 feet tall, which is conveniently half the size of a 6 foot human.
If you halve the height of a human, then proportionally, you're going to reduce the weight by a factor of 8. So, a 160 pound human being converted to a halfling would weigh about 20 pounds. A 120 pound human female would convert into a 15 pound halfling female by that conversion rate.
There are plenty of domestic cats that weigh 15-20 pounds. Heck there are breeds where adult males AVERAGE 20 pounds without being overweight. (Typically Ragdoll, Maine Coons and the like)
Given that, why can't housecats be Small instead of Tiny?
Because small quadrupeds are 2-4 feet long from nose to the base of the tail. Or at least they were in 3.5.
Cats average about 23–25 centimeters (9–10 in) in height and 46 centimeters (18.1 in) in head/body length (males being larger than females), with tails averaging 30 centimeters (11.8 in) in length.[48]
Your average, typical housecat is too small to be Small size, and the creatures stats are based on typical, average versions of animals. And typically, height (or length) is what determines size category, not weight.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Clearly, you never played 1e/2e, where house cats were a legitimate threat to the survival of all 0 level NPCs. IIRC, they had 3 attacks, any of which could kill a lowly NPC in a single shot! They must be size tiny or else they will take over the world!!!
(I'd say halfings are on the small size of small, just like dwarves are on the small size of medium, and aren't a terrific comparison. Plus, size is based partly on reach/dimensions as much as weight. I wouldn't say that a kindergartner and a cat are the same size category, though I would happily place wagers on a battle between the two to determine their relative combat effectiveness).
Sizes are according to length or height, not weight. Tiny is 1 to 2 feet long; Small is 2 to 4 feet long. These measurements usually do not include extremities such as the tail.
The largest recognized breed of domestic cat is, according to Wikipedia, at most 40 inches long including a 14 inch tail; that's a body length of only a little bit over 2 feet.
So, although a particularly large cat may exceed the standard 2-foot ceiling by a handful of inches, the breed is pretty much exclusively in the tiny range.
As for weight, halflings aren't just scaled-down humans. Your average halfling male is 35 pounds, the female 30 pounds. The ceiling for large cats is around 18 pounds.
Wikipedia (where I got my info above) also says:
Because of their small size, domesticated house cats pose little physical danger to adult humans.
Apparently, Wikipedia has never seen a fight between a cat and a 1st level wizard or commoner...
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Wikipedia (where I got my info above) also says:
Because of their small size, domesticated house cats pose little physical danger to adult humans.Apparently, Wikipedia has never seen a fight between a cat and a 1st level wizard or commoner...
I think wikipedia is also taking into account the fact that you get an attack of opportunity against the cat as long as it is size tiny.
I think wikipedia is also taking into account the fact that you get an attack of opportunity against the cat as long as it is size tiny.
Only if you win initiative. You only get to attack the cat as it moves into your square, once its there it can and will claw you with impunity, and 5 foot step into you square if you 5 foot step away.
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Sizes are according to length or height, not weight. Tiny is 1 to 2 feet long; Small is 2 to 4 feet long. These measurements usually do not include extremities such as the tail.
The largest recognized breed of domestic cat is, according to Wikipedia, at most 40 inches long including a 14 inch tail; that's a body length of only a little bit over 2 feet.
So, although a particularly large cat may exceed the standard 2-foot ceiling by a handful of inches, the breed is pretty much exclusively in the tiny range.As for weight, halflings aren't just scaled-down humans. Your average halfling male is 35 pounds, the female 30 pounds. The ceiling for large cats is around 18 pounds.
18 pounds? I have seen not one but two cats that almost top 40 pounds! One was enormously obese, the other I would swear had some bobcat or lynx blood in it. They were easily as heavy as both of my beagles.
--Litter Vrocks
18 pounds? I have seen not one but two cats that almost top 40 pounds! One was enormously obese, the other I would swear had some bobcat or lynx blood in it. They were easily as heavy as both of my beagles.
--Litter Vrocks
If they breed then the peasants are doomed!
I remember doing out this fight a few times on the Order of the stick forums. The cat won initiative, and the fight wound up with the peasant at 0 hit points hitting the cat to knock it out and then falling unconscious... but since the cat had been doing lethal damage and the peasant had been doing subdual, the cat woke up an hour later and coup de grace'd the peasant.
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Clearly, you never played 1e/2e, where house cats were a legitimate threat to the survival of all 0 level NPCs. IIRC, they had 3 attacks, any of which could kill a lowly NPC in a single shot! They must be size tiny or else they will take over the world!!!
(I'd say halfings are on the small size of small, just like dwarves are on the small size of medium, and aren't a terrific comparison. Plus, size is based partly on reach/dimensions as much as weight. I wouldn't say that a kindergartner and a cat are the same size category, though I would happily place wagers on a battle between the two to determine their relative combat effectiveness).
3.X cats were also lethal to commoners.... and wizards believe it or not. My cats are huge and I still wouldn't call them small as far as size categories go.
You can have big cats like that, but don't mind me if I freak out a little, because cat swarms are nightmares to deal with, and a big cat swarm would be virtually invincible.
http://www.cat-lovers-only.com/largest-domestic-cat-breed.html
Also known as a Meganeko.
But if the commoner is unarmed, he can't take an AoO! +1 for the kitty.
You can't make any attacks of opportunity when flat footed. If the cat wins initiative, the cat goes first while you are still flatfooted, and he can enter your space and you can't make an AoO on the cat.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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3.X cats were also lethal to commoners.... and wizards believe it or not. My cats are huge and I still wouldn't call them small as far as size categories go.
Yeah, but in 3.x you at least had the negative hp buffer. In 1e/2e, once those 1d4 hp (and not even max hp at first level!) were gone, it was game over.
Edit: Damn you all and your careful reading of the AoO rules.
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
-The commoner can be flat footed
-The commoner is unarmed, no AoO
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
Its not the movement provoking in this case. Its the cat entering into the opponents square. The opponent would still get an AoO on the cat reguardless of how the cat entered the square.
Taking a 5' step in this case would just remove the AoO from leaving the threatened space. It wouldn't prevent the AoO threatened from entering the humans space.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If 5' steps can be used to avoid the entering-opponents-squares AoO, then there's no point to the entering-opponents-squares AoO. It does nothing. The only time it would ever have any effect is when something is 5' from you and enters your square, because at any other time they would have to leave a threatened square to enter your own.
Sanity, please.
Eh? I'm not sure I follow. What BNW says regarding 5' steps sounds correct to me. It does come into play when you have tiny creatures attacking adventurers who aren't flatfooted (unlike my deadly cat, who attacks unarmed flatfooted humans, and likely gets sneak attack damage, because cats are badass like that). I remember vividly the very first time I ran stirges in 3.0 - a half dozen attacked the party and the monk killed most of them through combat reflexes and AoO's as they tried to attack.
ts not the movement provoking in this case. Its the cat entering into the opponents square. The opponent would still get an AoO on the cat reguardless of how the cat entered the square.
I don't think so. We let halflings 5 foot step into giant squares all the time without the giant getting to play golf.
FAQ it. The lives golarion peasants everywhere depend on it!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Its not the movement provoking in this case. Its the cat entering into the opponents square. The opponent would still get an AoO on the cat reguardless of how the cat entered the square.Taking a 5' step in this case would just remove the AoO from leaving the threatened space. It wouldn't prevent the AoO threatened from entering the humans space.
Hmmm...that sounds compelling too...
Okay, so we have two possible rules at play here, right?
1. A true 5' move never provokes an AoO.
2. Entering someone's square always provokes an AoO.
Both these rules sound correct, but anyone got a cite from the rules to see if we can figure out which applies?
I don't think so. We let halflings 5 foot step into giant squares all the time without the giant getting to play golf.
Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.
A halfling can enter a (huge) giants space, but can't end his movement there. And he still provokes an AoO for doing so.
But if the commoner is unarmed, he can't take an AoO! +1 for the kitty.
You can't make any attacks of opportunity when flat footed. If the cat wins initiative, the cat goes first while you are still flatfooted, and he can enter your space and you can't make an AoO on the cat.
Don't forget--if the commoner is unarmed, he will provoke an AoO from the cat. +2 cat.
Who says house cats can't be Small sized? Can't they be advanced like any other monster in the Bestiary?
But if the commoner is unarmed, he can't take an AoO! +1 for the kitty.You can't make any attacks of opportunity when flat footed. If the cat wins initiative, the cat goes first while you are still flatfooted, and he can enter your space and you can't make an AoO on the cat.Don't forget--if the commoner is unarmed, he will provoke an AoO from the cat. +2 cat.
But as the commoner will be attacking from an adjacent space, and the cat is Tiny with 0' reach, the cat does not threaten the commoner to take the AoO.
Back down to +1 kitty.
Who says house cats can't be Small sized? Can't they be advanced like any other monster in the Bestiary?
They have no Advancement entry in their stat block, so not really. OF course, the DM is always free to do whatever they want.
Edit: Well, it seems Pathfinder got rid of that particular part of the stat block for all creatures. So yes, it seems in Pathfinder a housecat can be advanced to Small size.
I think you can end your movement in the space of a much larger creature, otherwise smaller than small creatures wouldn't be able to attack at all.
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Who says house cats can't be Small sized? Can't they be advanced like any other monster in the Bestiary?
XP 135 N Small animal
Init +1; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +5
DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+1 Dex, +1 size, +3 Natural)
hp 4 (1d8+1) Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +3 (1d3–2), bite +3 (1d4–2)
Space 5.; Reach 5 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 7, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +0; CMB -3; CMD 8 (12 vs. trip)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Climb +8, Perception +5, Stealth +9; Racial Modifiers +4 Climb, +4 Stealth
A'yep. Templates still seem to be working okay. Maybe the OP's Bestiary is on the blink?
Perhaps this product will answer our need for Small-sized cats, such as lynxes, bobcats, Maine Coons, and Norwegian forest cats.
I think you can end your movement in the space of a much larger creature, otherwise smaller than small creatures wouldn't be able to attack at all.Already covered in my quotes, thanks. Tiny and smaller creatures can; creatures larger than Tiny cannot.
Sometimes i have a respond window open for a while , and stuff gets ninja'd
Given that, why can't housecats be Small instead of Tiny?
Who says they can't be? You can't a Small housecat, go for it. Heck, you want a Large housecat, go for that too. :)
Given that, why can't housecats be Small instead of Tiny?Who says they can't be?
The rules.
addendum: I don't have access to every published product in the Pathfinder line, but if anybody knows of any official product that supports the existence of non-Tiny domestic cat, I'd love to hear of it.
Sizes are according to length or height, not weight. Tiny is 1 to 2 feet long; Small is 2 to 4 feet long. These measurements usually do not include extremities such as the tail.
The largest recognized breed of domestic cat is, according to Wikipedia, at most 40 inches long including a 14 inch tail; that's a body length of only a little bit over 2 feet.
So, although a particularly large cat may exceed the standard 2-foot ceiling by a handful of inches, the breed is pretty much exclusively in the tiny range.As for weight, halflings aren't just scaled-down humans. Your average halfling male is 35 pounds, the female 30 pounds. The ceiling for large cats is around 18 pounds.
The longest recorded domestic cat measures 48.5 inches from nose to tip of tail. If you assume the tail is as much as one third of this length then the cat's body is still 32 inches, which is pretty close to the middle of the small range for quadrupeds.
This doesn't even bring into account the Savannah, whose parentage is partially Serval and partially domestic cat...
The rules.
Nonsense. There is nothing in the rules that prohibits size Small housecats. Witness the quick version:
Wow! That's a Big Cat
CR 1/3; XP 135
N Small animal
Init +1; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +5
DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 13, flat-footed 15 (+1 Dex, +3 natural, +2 size)
hp 5 (1d8+1)
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +2 (1d3–2), bite +2 (1d4–2)
STATISTICS
Str 7, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +0; CMB -3; CMD 8 (12 vs. trip)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Climb +5, Perception +5, Stealth +9; Racial Modifiers +4 Climb, +4 Stealth
ECOLOGY
Environment temperate and hot plains or urban
Organization solitary, pair, or pack (3–12)
Treasure none
@Bascaria: Damn, you're right.
@Spes: Nice peasant-killer. What would it take to get one with combat reflexes? And maybe some bite poison. Cat bites are nasty.
so, what, if anything would allow you to take such a cat as a familiar?
so, what, if anything would allow you to take such a cat as a familiar?
A lenient GM? Improved Familiar feat?
I'm guessing that neither of these applies to PFS.
I'm guessing that neither of these applies to PFS.
Why not? Pick a dire rat familiar. Describe it as a really big cat instead of a rat. Done.
@Spes: Nice peasant-killer. What would it take to get one with combat reflexes? And maybe some bite poison. Cat bites are nasty.
Thanks! One could just add Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. Disease would be appropriate than poison. Cats aren't venomous, but their bites and claws can be swimming with bacteria (although I've never experienced those problems personally; must have a good Fort save).
For a beefier cat, add two Hit Dice. If you want to pull out most of the stops, there's always the Titanic Housecat of Legend. :)
I own 3 Maine Coons. The biggest weighs in at 20 lbs, and he's not the biggest of the breed, he's average for a male. He is, from nose to butt (not including tail) just over 27 inches long.
The middle weighs in at 16 lbs, and 24 inches from nose to butt (she's a bit chubby, but in range for a female).
The smallest is also the youngest, at only 2 years. Since Maine Coon's grow until age 5, and he's already over 20 inches long from nose to butt, I'm expecting him to top out in the upper 20's for length, and in the low 20's for weight.
BTW: The biggest has scimitars for claws, over a centimeter long fully extended, and razor sharp.
Current holder of the Largest Cat in the World, a 48 inch long Maine Coon that weighs 35 lbs (and is at his ideal weight for his size). His tail is about 12 inches long, leaving him a good 3 feet from nose to butt. Basically, he's a halfling on all fours. I'd say he qualifies as Small, not Tiny. :)
I think the easiest way to handle this is classify large housecat breeds as Small Cats, from the bestiary/druid AC list. Start them off as Tiny at 1st level, then at 4th level, advance them to Small and give them the stats from the Druid AC list. I have a Witch character who took a cat (cheetah cub) and took Improved Familiar at 5th level to have it grow up from a cub to a young cheetah, and at 7 it'll advance up to Medium and be full grown. (Note, witch is a catfolk as well).