Some doubts about grapple and jawbreaker's feat path

[Callido]

Hi guys!
I was thinking about a strange alchemist/fighter elf (15th lvl) that likes a lot grappling his enemy to study their bodies resistance!
Well, when making this something was not clear to me:
1) i'm grappling someone and I still have a free hand welding a knife because I have three! (vestigial arm discovery) I have superior grapple too, can I pin my opponent and attack him with sneak attack??

2) I was reading jawbreaker's path: what do they mean with a succesful Stunning Fist? I just need to hit my opponent or should he fail ST too?

Thank you all!

[Roaming Shadow]

As for the three arms in a grapple, I'm pretty sure that's right, as if I recall correctly you need to be using two hands to maintain a grapple without penalties under normal circumstances, therefore if you have three arms, you still have a hand free while grappeling normally. However, I believe you still technically need to make a grapple check to attack with said light weapon in a grapple.

As for Jawbreaker, a "successful Stunning Fist" is one that is able to apply the effects of stunning fist, so yes, the enemy needs to fail the saving throw in order to apply the effects of Jawbreaker. If he makes his saving throw, no extra effect is applied, and the effect of Jawbreaker is applied "instead of imparting any other Stunning Fist effect". So if he succeeds his save, no effect is applied, therefore there is no effect to swap out for Jawbreaker.

[David Thomassen]

You cannot sneak attack as the grappled person is not denied their dexterity to yourself Grappled Condition Table with Grapple Modifer "Defender is… Grappling (but attacker is not) The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC."

Jawbreaker "Benefit: When you make a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent that is grappled, helpless, or stunned, instead of imparting any other Stunning Fist effect, you can cripple that opponent’s mouth, dealing normal unarmed strike damage and 1d4 points of bleed damage. Until the bleed damage ends, the target is unable to use its mouth to attack, speak clearly, and employ verbal spell components. A creature that is immune to critical hits or that has no discernible mouth is immune to the effects of this feat."

so again, Yes you must hit and the opponent fail the saving throw.

[Roaming Shadow]

David Thomassen wrote:

You cannot sneak attack as the grappled person is not denied their dexterity to yourself Grappled Condition Table with Grapple Modifer "Defender is… Grappling (but attacker is not) The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC."

Ah, but remember he said if he pins his opponent, not just grapples. If you're pinned, you're flat-footed, and therefore open to sneak attacks.

[Stynkk]

David Thomassen wrote:

You cannot sneak attack as the grappled person is not denied their dexterity to yourself Grappled Condition Table with Grapple Modifer "Defender is… Grappling (but attacker is not) The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC."

Regarding Grapple, check out the new Grappling FAQ

It seems that the grappling (while the attacker is not) section no longer applies.

You could sneak attack if you managed to get the opponent to the Pinned condition (per the new FAQ).

[David Thomassen]

So the OP does not need the extra arm to get the sneak attack once the opponent is pinned, as they are both denied Dexterity bonuses. At least the Pinned opponent cannot shout for help. "A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions..." Opps they can.

So to take the guard out you need to Grapple, Pin and tie them up (at -10 for the tieing up) and hope that the GM allows them to be gaged once tied. - Or just use a SAP and subdue them into next week with a good stealth roll and a high Initiative.

[Roaming Shadow]

Well, we weren't exactly talking about being sneaky here. The first question was could he attack with the knife in his third hand and deal sneak attack damage while the guy is pinned, and the answer is yes, by my reading.

If he wants to keep the guy quiet, and he's sneaking up on the guard, that's what Jawbreaker is for. If he were to also take Rapid Grappler, he should be able to grapple and make a Stunning Fist attack, if I'm reading it right. If you can inflict damage with unarmed, natural, or light weapon attack, it makes sense that, especially with that third arm, he could use that grapple check to uppercut his jaw, potentially breaking it and silencing him. The way I interpret it, the grapple check replaces the attack roll normally needed, but it otherwise like a regular attack with the capable weapons.

[Sean Mahoney]

To be clear, the extra arm doesn't really play into this at all. The vestigial arm discovery does not give you any extra actions, so you could be holding a dagger in a regular hand as you are wielding a light or one-handed weapon (which you can do in a grapple).

Having pinned your opponent does indeed deny them their dexterity bonus to AC, making them susceptible to sneak attack damage.

Making a combat maneuver check, which a grapple check is, is described as a making an attack roll and adding CMB instead of other modifiers. Since Sneak Attack affects your attack rolls, then all conditions are met for you to be able to get your sneak attack damage off against an opponent you have pinned (regardless of the extra arm).

Sean Mahoney