http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/death-or-glory-combat
(Please note that the following assumes minimally optimized characters. There are no chargemasters or Power Attack finaggling, just a THF using Power Attack and the basic feat line.)
Let us pretend for a moment we have a level 20 fighter on our hands. He's wielding a greatsword and using Power Attack (obviously), and his Strength is around 26. We will then suppose that he has wasted feats on the Vital Strike lines. Assuming magic items and other miscellaneous bonuses, his damage will be about 8d6 + 46 damage, or an average of 74 damage on a hit. And that's only usable against a Large or larger creature, AND the creature gets a free melee attack against him afterward.
This is with a full-round action. Meanwhile, the fighter who wasn't tricked into thinking that Death or Glory is useful would just make a full attack. Assuming the same stats, he's going to be doing roughly 2d6 + 39 damage per attack. He's also going to be attacking five times in a round with a weapon of speed. His potential damage output will thus be 10d6 + 195, or 230 damage. Obviously, this damage will be reduced overall by the decreased likelihood of hitting, but even assuming that only the first two attacks hit--and there is a pretty good chance of more hitting--the fighter does 92 damage in the round, meaning that he's outdamaging the Death or Glory fighter AND he's not getting hit by a melee attack AND he can do this all the time AND he has four more feats at his disposal to use elsewhere.
Discuss.
It's for roleplayers. :P
It's definitely for Roleplayers
^^
It's for idiots.
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i love this feat, i love the idea of this feat, this is the feat you use when you think your going to die next round anyway, this is the feat you use on the last standing badguy or the BBEG.
It's for idiots.Not going out of mum's basement a lot lately?
Wish I got that joke :)
But I say it's for idiots cause I'm pretty sure no one is gonna get ofended, cause no one likes it anyway, so, we're golden. :)
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Ready!
It could be a really cool idea in a arena IF you are fighting a giant and you know the next hit you take will kill you youa re down and out and out of options.
you have only one option! Death or Glory
It could work in certain situation that is 000000.9% likely to occur.
I would never take it unless we were doing a arena themed combat fight and i was a wizard!
If it was free, sure. We would use it rarely, now, paying a feat? Not in a million years, even if we got double the feats we got.
It's the feat you take when you want your character to have an early retirement or when you want people to applaud what a great "roleplayer" you are because while you could've chosen to the sensible thing and finished off the big bad, you chose what was more cinematic.
If it was free, sure. We would use it rarely, now, paying a feat? Not in a million years, even if we got double the feats we got.Beats Skill Focus (basketweaving) any time of the day.
I don't think so, basket weaving can at least gimme money, Death or Glory can only get me hit by a BIG fellow :)
I still say this is an awesome feat, besides if you cant kill the bad guy with one last hit you might as well die anyways but make it look good.
I don't think so, basket weaving can at least gimme money, Death or Glory can only get me hit by a BIG fellow :)If it was free, sure. We would use it rarely, now, paying a feat? Not in a million years, even if we got double the feats we got.Beats Skill Focus (basketweaving) any time of the day.
I think you are missing the point, it is death which sucks or GLORY which is amazing and awesome.
I thinkjust using the feat one time and not dying would make it worth it in a arena based combat world and if i was a wizard
imagine if i were a wizard and i was leading intrepid fellows through a cave. and a giant fire monster apeared lets call it a balrog just to make it interesting. if i had the feat and i was a wizard say of the top of my head i will be called "gandolf" if i used that feat to fight the balrog while my party escaped and we were both flung to the middle of the middle earth. i think it would be worth it. just a random example of the top of my head.
Discuss.
Hmmm... It looks pretty stupid when you start out your troll thread with some tangential ´dis´ against Vital Strike, which you follow up by demonstrating your complete lack of understanding of that Feat by thinking it actually works with the Full-Round Action that Death or Glory uses (a misunderstanding which actually cuts against your apparent premise).
I think the Feat is flavorfully named, and an interesting ability to exist in the game.
Basically helps the most against higher-AC-than-you-can-reliably-hit opponents.
I imagine this being used by ´mooks´ who likely would not hit an AC-optimized Fighter.
Any Fighter/melee type who is so out-classed by opponent AC could also use it as a ´surprise´.
It also works well for such low to-hit Mooks (vs. high AC target) who have Crit-triggered effects.
Tactically, if you have Greater Invisiblity or can utilize 1-way Cover, it also works well.
Also applicable when really big DR is in play.
Mostly I see this as a good NPC Feat... Given they are designed to lose (that´s how CR works), might as well make it more interesting.
I´m pretty sure the OP never considered using the attack bonus for a Combat Manuever either, which qualifies as a ´melee attack´. Whoops, they´re bullrushed 5´ further than you normally could, and can´t attack you back. Whoops, you just Disarmed their weapon...
I would have made the free attack use an AoO, possibly ALSO with the immediate action, but it should use an AoO no matter what.
I probably would have added a Miss Chance re-roll as well...
The scaling with BAB could probably be better, but plenty of stuff in this game is like that...
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Hmmm... It looks pretty stupid when you start out your troll thread with some tangential ´dis´ against Vital Strike, which you follow up by demonstrating your complete lack of understanding of that Feat by thinking it actually works with the Full-Round Action that Death or Glory uses (a misunderstanding which actually cuts against your apparent premise).
Re-read Death or Glory. Then enjoy the irony.
I´m responding to this.
We will then suppose that he has wasted feats on the Vital Strike lines.
I don´t recall ever starting a thread myself with this type of trolling comment...
Why is that so easy for me to avoid, but not Tom?Some people actually use Vital Strike, whether they are players or GMs.
Are they supposed to respond ´Yes Tom, my entire approach to this game is a waste.´
It´s pretty easy to just write ´if you happened to take Vital Strike´ and not come off like a trolling jerk.
I could see it as useful against when you have reason to think that one hit will kill an opponent. Other then that...
THe big 'use' (besides the RP flavor which really isn't worth discussing. Either you find it cool or your don't) could be to use it against Counter Attack foes.
Monks in UC got a few, Barbarians with Come and Get Me, etc. So having that 1 Uber attack tricked out with Vital Strike Power attack goodness might save your bacon.
And maybe it could help because you get the foe to blow their next Swift action on using the Immediate action retaliation attack, thus preventing them from doing something horrible to someone else on their next turn. Maybe if you can rider a status effect onto your swing they don't get no back talk.
In a Performance Combat fighting it might also have some value there, but that kinda touches on the RP Flavor side of the discussion, which boils down to group style, etc.
But at the end of the day, I think this feat would be awesome on some themed NPC builds. As the Feat pool grows, there are many feats that look cool, but just under perform compared to other choices. And when you only have 5 to 14 feats to choose from in most campaigns, it's hard to spend them on sub optimal choices. NPCs don't have the building concerns as a PC as they only need to look cool for a scene rather than be able to handle all the varied stuff you encounter over the 5 to 20 levels a PC adventures.
@Quandary: The feat specifically says it works with the Vital Strike chain.
Death or Glory (Combat)
Even when facing a larger foe, you aren’t afraid to take great risks in order to finish the fight.Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: Against a creature of size Large or larger, you can make a single melee attack as a full-round action, gaining a +4 bonus on the attack roll, damage roll, and critical confirmation roll. You gain an additional +1 on this bonus at base attack bonus +11, +16, and +20 (for a maximum of +7 at base attack +20). After you resolve your attack, the opponent you attack can spend an immediate action to make a single melee attack against you with the same bonuses.
Special: You can combine the full-round action attack this feat allows with the benefit of Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike.
{my bold}
I dunno, it seems useful in some circumstances. The size limitation of the target is rough, but if you're having trouble hitting the bad guy, +4 or higher to hit doesn't suck. The same to damage and crit confirmations helps too. It's clear this is meant to capstone the Vital Strike chain.
So if you've got a creature you're having trouble hitting, you throw everything into this, hope you crit, and do the job. In return for actually managing to hit, you get attacked back. This... instead of just missing three or four times then getting pounded anyway.
Also, the target has to make a melee attack. Not bad if you're up against something with ranged weapons, something that's a Large caster, or something which focuses on other abilities and has mediocre melee damage.
Also also, if your AC is high enough that you're not likely to get it, this becomes a lossless venture.
@Quandary: The feat specifically says it works with the Vital Strike chain.
Thanks, I see that now. I stand by the other 95% of my post, including the un-necessary trolling on Vital Strike.
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I dunno, it seems useful in some circumstances. The size limitation of the target is rough, but if you're having trouble hitting the bad guy, +4 or higher to hit doesn't suck. The same to damage and crit confirmations helps too. It's clear this is meant to capstone the Vital Strike chain.
Well, not so much capstone as something that synergizes right when you take the 1st Vital Strike.
I.e. when your BAB gives you 1 additional attack, but at penalty to hit that makes it not likely to hit vs. high AC opponents.A Full-Attack MAY look better if you have Haste/Speed (depending on to-hit vs. AC), but this can be pretty good when you have 2 iteratives. It´s like Super Vital Strike, but when you have a Full-Round to spare.
I would guess that alot of people would like Vital Strike to work like this :-)
I actually don´t understand the bit about Crit Confirmation. If you have an Attack Bonus to an attack, that bonus automatically applies to any Crit Confirmation for the attack. Is the mentioning of Crit Confirmation wholly super-fluous, or are you supposed to apply the bonus a second time, i.e. on top of itself, for the Crit Confirm?
I actually don´t understand the bit about Crit Confirmation. If you have an Attack Bonus to an attack, that bonus automatically applies to any Crit Confirmation for the attack. Is the mentioning of Crit Confirmation wholly super-fluous, or are you supposed to apply the bonus a second time, i.e. on top of itself, for the Crit Confirm?
I think you add to hit and Confirm, it stacks.
Kind of nice if you have a good Crit rate 12-20 and are really hoping for a Critical.
I've always glossed over Death or Glory and just assumed it wasn't worth taking, but this thread got me tinkering with the numbers out of curiosity. Attempting to stick to easily/reasonably achievable numbers:
An enlarged, lead bladed 11th-level ftr/barb raging with a 30 Str and wielding a +1 furious keen greatsword combines Death and Glory with Improved Vital Strike and Power Attack:
+25 atk (+11 BAB +10 Str +3 Enh -1 Sz -3 PA +5 DaG)
norm dmg: 12d6+32(15 Str + 3 Enh + 9 PA + 5 DaG), avg 74
crit 17-20, +30 crit confirm (using assumption that crit confirm bonus is additional to DaG atk bonus), crit dmg: 16d6+64, avg dmg 120
Now let's assume he also has Furious Finish. If he fails to crit, he deals avg 74 damage and takes a hit from his enemy at +5/+5 (+5 crit). No big deal, taking hits is his second hobby after smashing things really hard. If he does crit, he activates Furious Finish to deal 160 damage to the BBEG.
Is this optimal compared to what else you can do with other 11th-level barbarian/barbarian hybrid builds? Not really, but the character could definitely be a useful and productive addition to a party. I don't think Death or Glory is a terrible option.
I actually don´t understand the bit about Crit Confirmation. If you have an Attack Bonus to an attack, that bonus automatically applies to any Crit Confirmation for the attack. Is the mentioning of Crit Confirmation wholly super-fluous, or are you supposed to apply the bonus a second time, i.e. on top of itself, for the Crit Confirm?
I think you add to hit and Confirm, it stacks.
Kind of nice if you have a good Crit rate 12-20 and are really hoping for a Critical.
You tell me how this is possible, and I'll give you a candy.
On a side note, I think the confirm critical part is redundancy, not an adition.
Hmmm... It looks pretty stupid when you start out your troll thread with some tangential ´dis´ against Vital Strike, which you follow up by demonstrating your complete lack of understanding of that Feat by thinking it actually works with the Full-Round Action that Death or Glory uses (a misunderstanding which actually cuts against your apparent premise).
Self-ownage is the best ownage.
Of course, the point is that taking a full-round action to make a single weak attack is less good than taking a full-round action to make multiple strong attacks. If the feat were usable as a standard action, it would be slightly less bad. As it stands, though, the feat is just terrible.
I actually don´t understand the bit about Crit Confirmation. If you have an Attack Bonus to an attack, that bonus automatically applies to any Crit Confirmation for the attack. Is the mentioning of Crit Confirmation wholly super-fluous, or are you supposed to apply the bonus a second time, i.e. on top of itself, for the Crit Confirm?
I think you add to hit and Confirm, it stacks.
Kind of nice if you have a good Crit rate 12-20 and are really hoping for a Critical.You tell me how this is possible, and I'll give you a candy.
On a side note, I think the confirm critical part is redundancy, not an adition.
Wait, I think I was thinking of 3.5 weapon (bladed guantlet had a 17-20,x2 Critical rate innately.)/3.0 Prc (Book of Vile Darkness had Disciple of Dispator). Also Armor and Equipment Guide had Serrated ability (+1 Crit threat). In addition, a Barbarian Archetype in 3.5 had +1 Crit threat (stacks with Keen) on every charge or enemy denied dex.
A Keen Bladed Guantlet was 13-20 (add Serrated = 12-20). BoVD's Prc increased Crit rate (and stacked) with keen by 1 (4 lvs) or 2 (8 lvs).
Technically, if you had them all: 9-20. But that requires much work (and you have to serve evil). Good limited to 11-20.
Some DMs allow D&D products. But I forgot to cite that fact.
I think in PF lowest is 15-20 (keen Scimitar/Rapier/Falchion).
99% of NPC´s are ´oneshots´. They also have crappier stats and lower wealth to help their to-hit.
So when they have 1 iterative, or even more possibly, those lower iteratives may be VERY un-likely to hit a high AC opponent.
(which can simply mean an average-optimized heavy or even medium armor wearing PC)
There is alot of characters for which this action will mean more damage, and more reliable damage, than not using it.
Besides already mentioned methods of avoiding the counter-attack, simply having Reach advantage also works great.
What NPC's would this be good for? The PCs are very unlikely to be large creatures so enemy npcs with this seem rare and strange. If you're talking about ally NPCs fighting large creatures, I suppose if they are fighting a lot of golems or dragons, maybe but then you have the GM making rolls between to NPCs. Feats and abilities that have the GM rolling with themself without any player interaction seem mind-boggling to me.
What NPC's would this be good for? The PCs are very unlikely to be large creatures so enemy npcs with this seem rare and strange. If you're talking about ally NPCs fighting large creatures, I suppose if they are fighting a lot of golems or dragons, maybe but then you have the GM making rolls between to NPCs. Feats and abilities that have the GM rolling with themself without any player interaction seem mind-boggling to me.
Combo: enemy Wizard cast Enlarge person on PC then NPC warrior uses Death or Glory?
Remember Enlarge works on enemies.
In my experience, I and other players with ´melee PCs´ almost always try to use Enlarge Person at mid-levels.
Extra damage dice and STR, but mainly just for Reach... And the logic makes sense for mid-level melee NPCs also.
So between Enlarged Melee PCs/NPCs and monsters, the Large part doesn´t seem that hard to satisfy,
albeit it excludes a good number of targets (like Casters, alot of Rogues, etc).
NPC allies fighting monsters along-side PCs is pretty common also,
but ANYBODY (including PCs) who only has 2 iteratives can probably get usage out of this ability,
even if it perhaps doesn´t scale up so well at high levels (PFS doesn´t go beyond 12th anyways).
Playing with lower point buy, or having other class abilities that divert stast (e.g. bard or cavalier)
can make this a decent option for PCs as well...
Basically, it´s about being more effective when things are hardest,
rather than getting bigger numbers when things are easier.
Besides stuff like SKill Focus: Craft(Basketweaving), tons of Feats don´t scale up well with level.
Getting bonus 1st level spells known doesn´t compare to a more ´optimal´ Feat looking at an ´instant high level build´...
Yet that´s certainly a good option at low level, and given that very few NPCs ever reach high level,
it´s reasonable to expect that feats/styles/etc exist which are optimal at low level but not at high level.
It's the feat you take when you want to tell your DM "Hey, I want to reroll, can you kill this guy real quick?"
I wouldn't use it even if it were free. It's literally "Let the monster punch me in the face for almost no reward" as an ability.
I mean hell, if you want a gambling, guts or glory, super aggressive playing style feat...look at Robilar's Gambit, the 3e feat.
3e gives shock trooper and/or leap attack, Pathfinder gives...Vital Strike.
Even compare the Armor-as-DR in Unearthed Arcana to the Ultimate Combat one.
Taking an idea from 3.5 and making it worse is turning up an unpleasantly large number of times.
I mean hell, if you want a gambling, guts or glory, super aggressive playing style feat...look at Robilar's Gambit, the 3e feat.
3e gives shock trooper and/or leap attack, Pathfinder gives...Vital Strike.
Taking an idea from 3.5 and making it worse is turning up an unpleasantly large number of times.
Um, no.
3e gives shock trooper and/or leap attack, Pathfinder gives Tiger pounce and Vital Strike.Yeah, shock trooper = Tiger pounce (same ability). Sadly, no leap attack.
I mean hell, if you want a gambling, guts or glory, super aggressive playing style feat...look at Robilar's Gambit, the 3e feat.
3e gives shock trooper and/or leap attack, Pathfinder gives...Vital Strike.
Taking an idea from 3.5 and making it worse is turning up an unpleasantly large number of times.
Um, no.
3e gives shock trooper and/or leap attack, Pathfinder gives Tiger pounce and Vital Strike.Yeah, shock trooper = Tiger pounce (same ability). Sadly, no leap attack.
Vital Strike can't be used with a charge. And Tiger Pounce is designed only for monks.
In fact, Vital Strike is hilarious. Remember this? "Can you use Vital Strike with Spring Attack? One of the writeups of your iconic characters mentions them using the two together as their favorite tactic, but it looks like you can't."
Then James came out and said: "And because, as I've mentioned above, letting Spring Attack and Vital Strike work together is cool. Since you found precedence where the two feats work together in print, LET THAT BE THE LAW! Vital Strike and Spring Attack were made to be together, after all."
...Then six months later they did errata to Spring Attack to ensure it can't be used with Vital Strike.
Pathfinder seems filled with these bizarre cases like you mentioned yourself with Tiger Pounce and Vital Strike - things made specifically unsynergetic for no given reason. Vital Strike is a great example of this. Like Vital Strike and Cleave. Vital Strike and Spring Attack. Vital Strike can barely be used with anything. And why? It's not exactly super powered!
Indeed, vital strike is no more a good choice. If u don't want to take more options in combat (or can't) can be useful, but not powerful. I preferred when its bonus worked for first attack during the round. If it's too strong with whirling attack or similar stuff, use hit only with first dmg roll. Assume you are using a 2h sword. 2d6 means average 7 bonus dmg, not multiplied on a crit hit. Then, power attack gives you 6 bonus dmg at 4th level, and you can easy handle the malus. More, this dmg is multiplied on a crit, and the feat let you make a full attack. Death or glory has some sense just when u can't be hit in reponse (reach, final hit?), and the enemy has a high AC.
Power attack lead you to a lot of (better) talents, and can be used with other (cleave, spring attack...).
It's not crazy to suppose that a feat like this could give such 7 dmg bonus on 1 attack without make you drop all other combat options and extra attack. Staff should reconsider its use. If you take all vital strike tree, at 16th level you can have a bonus included in 6 to 36 dmg. 3 talents, no more attacks... to much for someone intended to be used in first round of fight (or after move).
Vital Strike can't be used with a charge. And Tiger Pounce is designed only for monks.
Are you talking RAI? Because the RAW (rules as written) means anyone can take Tiger Pounce. Monks get no extra benefit (Dragon Style is the Monk one).
Monks are a good dip for anyone who uses Power Attack (for Tiger Style/pounce free access with MoMS Monk archetype), but regardless anyone can take it.