On the difficulties of making a PC undead

[Umbral Reaver]

As we all know, the undead type grants an enormous pile of bonuses and immunities. For thematic reasons, I need to figure out how to make a PC undead without it breaking the game.

The theme is as follows:

Ennan, a warrior of great valour and righteousness, fought in an ancient war to destroy a horde of extraplanar undead. He destroyed the lich-god of this other world at the cost of his own life, yet through his acts of heroism and triumphant sacrifice, he became a god. As his body was being reanimated by the lich's underlings, this undead taint became reversed. He and his dead fellows rose as unliving guardians of the world, to watch in eternal vigilance for the return of the Dread Host. While Ennan himself rose to the celestial planes as the Frozen Tomb, patron of cold vigil and unwavering righteousness, his knights remained on the mortal plane as the Oathbound Saints, first of his order.

The order of paladins known as the Oathbound (I wrote this before the archetype) swear never to rest until their task is complete. Given that their task is the total elimination of all other undead and necromancy on the planet, this means they aren't getting much rest.

When an Oathbound paladin of 5th level or higher dies, he or she then rises as a positive-aligned undead. This replaces the divine bond feature with the undead traits currently, except that they are healed by positive energy and harmed by negative energy. At 20th level, the holy champion power is replaced by a type of incorporeality as the Oathbound becomes a true guardian spirit rather than animated bones. They are focused on undeath rather than outsiders.

An Oathbound that deliberately gets killed to gain the undead bonuses is violating the oath and immediately falls. This may or may not produce a kind of evil undead or may simply fail and die. I'm not sure which way I want to go with that yet.

The big problem I have is what to do with the constitution score. As an undead, hit points and such are based on charisma (a big bonus for a paladin). However, I don't want players playing an Oathbound to dump con, work to survive until 5th level then be 'heroic' and die fighting heroically (a 7 con won't last long).

Making them 're-buy' their array sans con would be weird. Making the Oath require a minimum con might work, as part of the requirements of the faith include rituals of bathing in ice water for long periods in order to receive divine visions and doing all sorts of other things that are symbolic of death.

[Phasics]

Just gonna throw it out there since we're talking homebrew.

Positive energy Undead just doesn't seem right to me. I mean if you bring back a dead person with positive energy then you healed them, and thus ressurected them.

If you do it with negative energy that's when you've raised them as undead.

What is seems like you need here is a new state of being the unlife or the unfinished.

stuck between this life and moving on to the next. Not alive but not undead either.

then give them some undead traits and make up some new ones to suit.

as for dumping con since they have no con score, consider the simple fix of beucase they are not undead but this new unlife, unfinshed type of creature they only apply 1/2 CHA bonus to HP.

Or if you really want to get differnt and crazy
they can't be healed
they gain a chunk of DR and resist energy ALL and Burst Regen
Once they are reduced to 0 HP they are unconscious for minutes = full HP
once that time has past they wake up with full HP

or you can simply say they regain full HP after 8 hrs rest and thats the only way to regain HP.

[Umbral Reaver]

The idea is that they are proper undead, yet held to existence not by necromantic energies but by 'unfinished business'. In this case, the unfinished business is their holy oath and their ability to run around with all their squishy bits fallen off is granted by a lawful good deity. That, and positive energy exists in opposition to negative energy and the parallel and mirroring between the Oathbound and the Dread Host is a pretty major plot point.

[Revel]

Perhaps rather then automatic you could make the transformation to undead require a fortitude save to successfully "survive", those that fail simply die. So the higher level they are the better there chances. Even if the save was reasonably low it might make players hesitant to risk death since they might not come back and would support having a decent fortitude save.

Another possibility might be to grant a limited constitution based regeneration like healing 1/2 your constitution bonus rounded up each round after reaching a certain level. Those that a transformed into incorporeal being might have their bodies dissolve converting to positive energy and infusing and empowering them thereby granting that form regeneration as well.

Anyway that's my 2 cents, just kinda brainstorming outloud, I like your back story. Hopefully you find one or both or these to your liking or perhaps that can at least give you an idea of your own you could play with :)

[Atarlost]

What about averaging their con into their charisma?

[Vrecknidj]

I'm only skimming, but, aren't these folks supposed to have started play as living warriors, paladins? It would be hard to convince me that anyone following this path didn't have a decent Con to begin with. Force the players to choose a reasonable Con -- honestly, what are the odds some paladin with a 7 Con survives long enough at this task?

Either the player gives you an AMAZING backstory to explain how some sickly, weak sapling of a kid ever is even allowed paladin training, or the players have to lock away a minimum of 12 to Con.

[Tark of the Shoanti]

Mythic Races from FFG had a "undead" race in it. Maybe look at the write-up it has for a starting point?

[InsaneFox]

You could state that, if the means of death do not satisfy the god (GM discretion, intentional deaths or pathetic displays in combat) the player simply dies. Ensuring that only the most valourous knights are allowed to pervert the barrier between life and death.

Plotwise, this ensures that paladins, deep down, aren't fighting with a secret agenda in mind... nor are the weak ones allowed to rise and bring needless undeath into the world.

[The Shogun of Harlem]

Make a base con score of (insert number) as a class requirement? It could speak to the tuffness and fortitude required of an Oathbound Knight (looking at some of the other good ideas above).

[Xum]

Don't tell them, but any number they have below 10 (or 12) is subtracted from charisma after their deaths. Cause since they weren't healthy enough to withstand the transformation, their bodies mutaded more and they lost Charisma.

For instance Con 7 and Cha 18 character. After transformation he becomes Con - and Cha 15.

Now, if they have more, it could enter as a half bonus to Charisma. Say he has 16 Con and 16 Cha. After transformation he can become Con - and Charisma 19.

Positive energy undead exist, I don't remember which book, but I believe it's a forgoten realms one and most of them are Elves, gonna try to find it.

[Rory]

"Divine Grace" seems like a better thing to sacrifice than the "Divine Bond". They gain immunity to fort saves, but lose their bonus to will and reflex.

Losing part of their Lay On Hands power when they raise to undead status would diminish the bonus on hitpoints gained from CHA being a more focused stat. Example: Lay On Hands healing dice and times per day are calced based on Level - 4 (instead of Level), so they lose 2d6 of healing and 2 uses per day.

As for CON not being a dump stat? That's tougher since you are stripping the two things most CON related, hitpoitns and fort saves. The best thing there might be to require a certain CON level in order to activate the ability (as someone mentioned). That would create a stat requirement to use a class ability, which is a precedence that might best be avoided.

Personally, I would write up an alternate undead "template" (as Phasics hinted) that balances the effect. That is easily in line with the effect you are trying to achieve. In that template, add an ability that depends on CON so making it a dump stat is avoided.

Examples:

==> DR 3/bludgeon +1/bludgeon for each former CON bonus
==> +1 Fast Healing for each former CON bonus
==> +3 natural armor +1 for each former CON bonus
etc.

[mcbobbo]

Revel wrote:

Perhaps rather then automatic you could make the transformation to undead require a fortitude save to successfully "survive", those that fail simply die. So the higher level they are the better there chances. Even if the save was reasonably low it might make players hesitant to risk death since they might not come back and would support having a decent fortitude save.

I really like this one. It's mechanic-y without being arbitrary. If you wanted to soften the blow a bit, you might have the failed save botch the process, resulting in a penalty, rather than fail outright.

[Vindicator]

Use the Eberron campaign setting's Living Construct sub-type as a template. that is what I did for an undead race.

[BEGS]

there used to be something called "deathless" from the flavor of your homebrew game it sounds like a fit to me.
Im sure you will find something from old 3.0 or 3,5 with google about the deathless

[Tacticslion]

BEGS wrote:

there used to be something called "deathless" from the flavor of your homebrew game it sounds like a fit to me.

Im sure you will find something from old 3.0 or 3,5 with google about the deathless

You can find them in the Book of Exalted Deeds, in Eberron Campaign Setting, and in the Monsters of Faerune - the first two contain deathless, the second (ECS) the 3.5 version of them, and the last contain the earliest version - that of "good liches" - elven "Baelnorn" which were liches without a phylactery that hung around to give their descendants their knowledge.

Pardon, my baby's crying - more info later....

EDIT: ah, he's better now, so let me see...

SPOILERED FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE (I talk/type/whatever way too much)

Deathless v. Undead (positive energy v. negative energy), mechanical differences:

Deathless are identical (functionally) in every way to undead, save:
a) their relationship to positive energy/negative energy is reversed
...a1) this includes reverse benefits/penalties for hallow
...a2) this includes reverse reaction to turn/rebuke undead (it becomes rebuke/turn deathless)
...a3) this includes reverse benefits/penalties to cure/inflict spells (but see below)

b) they respond to detect spells as undead of their alignment (almost universally good) - so where evil undead are on a detect evil chart, replace that with good deathless on a detect good chart (which would be overshadowed by your paladin aura anyway - unless you make this a character 'penalty' for becoming deathless... they no longer radiate the pure good they once did)

c) they are subject to energy drain (this, in addition to things that affect objects, is the only other thing they need to make a fort save against). This is actually a pretty major vulnerability, considering that their greatest enemy is going to be undead... the majority of which have some form of energy drain.

Outside of those three elements, they are identical to undead, mechanically speaking. These three differences map very easily to Pathfinder v. 3.X stuff.

Good Undead of Golarion:

If, on the other hand, you were playing on (or like) Golarion, you could simply have the tradition rise out of the Mwangi Juju tradition (an Oracle Mystery presented in Serpent Skull Adventure Path) in which undead created with Spirit Vessels (I'll explain in a minute) are not evil - mindless are neutral instead, and any non-mindless are identical to the alignment of the caster. "Spirit Vessels" is a "Revelation" (a kind of class feature) an oracle with the Juju Mystery can choose which strips the [evil] descriptor from animate dead, create undead, and create greater undead spells (and all similar or related spell-types) and instead does what is mentioned - the undead are created with the caster's alignment. The explained difference is that undead created with spirit vessels are actually vessels for sacred spirits called "Wendo" - a kind of ambiguous nature spirit that can be (depending on the Wendo) evil, good, or neutral - and the caster communes with them and utilizes their essence to create undead (although the undead still retain their links with negative energy).

Upon Apotheosis to Undeath:

One idea is to, upon apotheosis, drop both divine bond and divine grace, but not before then. Their charisma is already going to their fortitude anyway, they are only losing their CON bonus to fortitude and CHA bonus to reflex. I'm not sure I like that idea, myself, but it's certainly reasonable and helps with their goals. Please keep in mind, however, that they are already effectively losing any benefit from divine health: they gain that for becoming deathless (or "good undead"). Also remember that in Pathfinder, unlike in previous editions, undead are no longer immune to sneak attack and their HD and skills remains the same (it doesn't become d12 and 4+INT). Using Vindicator's idea of the living construct as a kind of template for "living undead" is a pretty good idea too.

On the Fortitude Save Idea:

As for the fortitude save, if you make the DC 15+class level, they will have a definite reason to have a high enough CON - by 20th level they'd need to pass a DC 35 check! If you want to soften it, you could make it DC 20 + 2/5 class level, thus encouraging them to gain more levels before dying, thus making the check more likely as the grow in power, less likely at lower levels. The minimum DC would be 22 (20+2 for fifth level), and would become DC 24 (at 10th), DC 26 (at 15th), and DC 28 (at 30th), opposed to base saves of +4, +7, +9, +12; respectively - the fortitude save increases by +3 every five levels while the DC increases only by +2. I'm sure there are more elegant ways to do it (for example, the DCs would be easiest to reach at levels 8-9 (+6 v DC 22; a roll of 16 instead of 17), 14 (+9 v DC 24; a difference of 15 instead of 16), and 18-19 (+11 v DC 26; also a roll of 15). The above numbers, of course, presume no bonuses of any kind. Add a charisma bonus (usually +4) and any sort of constitution bonus (at least +1) and you've got the basic DC on a roll of 13, and higher levels on a roll of 11 or even 10 - again, not including increased scores for higher levels or magic items.

Hope that helps!