Wizards/sorcerers/clerics/oracles can simply take one spell and make all psionics moot, Wish/Miracle. "I wish psionics did not exist on this world" = Spell casters winning.I'm sorry, but I don't think any GM in their right mind would allow that to function.
Would you allow "I wish divine spellcasters did not exist on this world" to stop all clerics/paladins/oracles from existing?
Would you allow "I wish music didn't exist on this world" to cripple all bards?
Wish/Miracle have a number of set limitations. Anything beyond those limitations is risky and down to GM discretion.
I agree. If that were the case campaigns would not even need to be ran. The high level caster could just wish he were sucessful, and that would be it. I know there was an equivalent psionic power also. I am sure trying the same thing with regard to magic users will just make the GM laugh.
I thought that was a joke so I went to the post and read the entire thing. Now I see that JMD031 was serious.
Now, after adventuring with that crappy array and being worse than a melee at melee for 12 levels, it's finally time for your build to shine. You blow 2 feats on Bite of the Wolf and Psychofeedback. Combat comes up, and you bust out biofeedback in round 1, surging for an effective ML of 17. Yowza. You enhance it so you don't take ability damage while the power is active. You get a +26 strength, for a total of 52. that's +21 to hit and damage. Round 2 you move into position and take one swing, probably hitting and doing around 50 damage if you're competent. Third round you're ready to full attack, and you do, obliterating one enemy. Then on round four...oh dang where'd everybody go? Oh yeah combat doesn't last very long. Well with a round of prep you were able to kill one dude. Too bad every caster can do that at your level, most want to incapacitate multiple enemies or if you're a kineticist just do ZOMGdamage to them....You don't blow two feats when the Wilder class gives you Expanded Knowledge for free. Also, you probably take Hustle so you get to have a move action and a full attack action in one round. Finally, there are many combats that take longer than that. I guess you think that a spell which can add a boosted caster level to every physical stat isn't overpowered, and that's where we have a disagreement.
So, how would you deal with being attacked by an invisible Wizard that uses spells that don't give you a hint as to his location?
Assuming the wizard is also flying. First, move to an area to cramp him. If you're in a wide open area then you're asking to be wizard bombed. If there's really no where that you can use terrain against him then just invis yourself or throw up minor images to distract him. So the wizard is using silent spells? Otherwise, perception check then glitterdust. Dispel Magic. Ya might get your own buffs but oh well. Invis purge is pretty good as well or good old antimagic area. Oh those are all caster tricks? Welcome to caster martial disparity.
And you're getting caught up on big numbers. Psychofeedback is a poorly reimagined power and I imagine will get errataed at some point because it causes an infinite loop. But you're getting hung up on physical damage. There are so many things to let you ignore that wilder's attacks it's not funny, and that power can just be dispelled. Have you seen some of the new wizard spells in Ultimate Magic? Or cleric or druid spells for that matter, Polar Midnight is pretty obnoxious and asking for a one-two insta-kill when combined with Wall of Thorns.
Assuming the wizard is also flying. First, move to an area to cramp him. If you're in a wide open area then you're asking to be wizard bombed. If there's really no where that you can use terrain against him then just invis yourself or throw up minor images to distract him. So the wizard is using silent spells? Otherwise, perception check then glitterdust. Dispel Magic. Ya might get your own buffs but oh well. Invis purge is pretty good as well or good old antimagic area. Oh those are all caster tricks? Welcome...He's not using silent spells, he's just 1000 feet away so you get -100 on every perception check. You have invisibility, but he can cast see invisible. My point here is that the only way to not die against such a wizard is to have Mind Blank yourself. Your only "solution" is to run away. Do you see the problem here?
How does it cause an infinite loop? I don't see it, even after re-reading the description.
How does Wall of Thorns combo with Polar Midnight? Can't they just fly over the wall?
At 1000 feet the wizard can't see you to target you either. Explain to me how this is something that is at all exacerbated by the wizard being invisible. If you're on a wide open plain with nowhere to hide/take cover and a flying wizard starts flinging fireballs at you or whatever...what do you do? My point is that wizards and other primary casters are already so powerful you don't have to invent scenarios in which they are even more powerful. But most combats take place in confined areas, thankfully. At least those in APs.
Go ahead and read Wall of Thorns. It basically makes you immobile. If you can't pass a DC 25 strength check every round (every 5 points above 20 your Str check is you move 5 feet) you don't move. If you don't move, you're AUTOMATICALLY frozen in place and held helpless. My guess is that a level 17 fighter with, say, 34 strength has a fair chance at that strength check but no one else is. You can port out of it or D-Door, but nonetheless it's a potent combo. And it can be done in one round with a metamagic rod of quicken.
Also, wasn't there a Supreme Invisibility spell in 3.5 that you couldn't see through even with True Seeing? I think it was an 8th level spell.
How does it cause an infinite loop? I don't see it, even after re-reading the description.
Upon further examination it can't be an infinite loop simply because unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack with one another. But let's take someone with a 14/14/14 s/d/c setup. Manifest once, boost str by 28 to 42 by dumping d/c to 0, but ignore the damage. Manifest again and boost dex by 56 to 70 by dumping s/c and ignore the damage. Manifest yet again to boost Con by 112 to 126 by dumping s/d and ignore the damage. Now you have S-42 (+16) D-70 (+30) C-126 (+58) albeit for only a few rounds. You've only given a bonus to each stat once, so it's legit, and won't call into play the aforementioned unnamed bonuses rule.
Transformation gives an enhancement bonus so it doesn't overlap with easily accessible magic items. Giant Form II is 8th level and only gives
+8 to strength. Psycofeedback is level 5 and can easily give +20 to Str, Dex, AND Con with multiple uses at the same level. To suggest that it's a mere "cool trick" strikes me as absurd. It's FAR, FAR stronger than ANY Sorcerer/Wizard spell that buffs physical stats.
I'm a bit interested in doing some exercises here to breakdown how broken this power is in the hands of a wilder as you note.
I threw together the following 15 point buy build, with the intent of making a wilder who will melee. Now, since I want to optimize our survival capabilities, this Wilder will be built more like a caster, and then dump excess ability points into Strength when we get psychofeedback and surge. For this purpose, I'll also use the Student wilder, since you noted them as being the best.
Our ability score array (in order) is 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 16, including a +2 for being human the Charisma. This array is designed to try and get the absolute most out of psychofeedback at 13th level when we acquire it with a Feat.
At 4th, 8th, and 12th level we put our ability score increase into Charisma for more manifesting power. Also for the sake of argument, I'll assume our Wilder had a core-wizard who provided a +5 inherent modifier to [b]every single ability score[/i] when they reached level 13, via Planar Binding or Simulacrum.
Our expected Wealth By Level is 140,000 gp, so we'll assume you have purchased a +3 ability score item for every ability score other than Charisma, and a +4 ability score item in Charisma; again with the idea of maximizing your stat-dumping potential.
Our new ability score array is 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 28.
When we wild surge, our effective caster level is 17 (13 + 4), allowing us to redistribute up to 17 points from our other scores into the score that we want. We shall take 6 points out of Intelligence, Wisdom, 3 point out of Dexterity, and 2 points out of Constitution to bring our strength to 37, and we shall use our wild surge to pay the extra points to increase the duration of the power to 1 min/level (or 17 minutes). We don't take points out of Dexterity because you said we're going to be using Two Weapon Fighting in your previous post, so we need our 17 Dexterity or else we lose our Improved Two Weapon Fighting.
Now our array is 37, 17, 16, 14, 14, 28. Niiiiice.
Our strength score now provides a +13 bonus to strength related checks, or a +19 with a two handed weapon. Now bite of the wolf and dual-wielding was mentioned in the thread earlier, so let's assume you dump 11 power points into it to manifest it as if it were a 6th level power, and your base bite damage is now 3d8+13. Now we're also using two-weapon fighting, so just to cheese it up, let's assume you're using a double-weapon (because as written you can get 2-handed strength on both main and off-hand attacks).
Our Base Attack is +9/+4 as a second tier combatant.
Our Base Attack with Improved Two Weapon Fighting is +7/+7/+2/+2.
With Bite of the Wolf Factored In: +7/+7/+2/+2/+2.
Adding in our Strength modifier brings it to +20/+20/+15/+15/+15.
We could probably also assume that you have a +2 staff as your double weapon and you're hasted by your wizard friend for +23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+18.
Our damage routine assuming all attacks hit is...
1d6+21/1d6+21/+1d6+21/1d6+21/1d6+21/3d8+6 or 133 average damage, assuming all the attacks hit. This is also assuming that you have Double Slice in addition to your Two Weapon Fighting feats, so that don't suffer the -50% strength penalty on your off-hand attacks.
Pretty snazzy!
That took a grand total of...
20 Power Points plus 7 for a Psychic Reformaton ('cause you don't qualify for the Two Weapon Fighting feats until you're a high level).
1 High Level Wild surge class feature
3 Non-Class Feature Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Double slice.
Wish shenanigans.
Now a 13th Level Fighter might have a build like the following.
16, 15, 14, 7, 14, 7. Later he gets +5 from your Wizard friend to everything, bringing him to 21, 20, 19, 12, 19, 12. He places his 3 points from leveling into Strength, and grabs a +6 strength item, and a +1 Con item, and a +1 Wisdom item; bringing him to 28, 20, 20, 12, 20, 12. He also gets some gloves of dueling, and a nice +2 quarterstaff, just like our Wilder.
Base Attack: +13/+8/+3
With Greater Two Weapon Fighting: +11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1
With Weapon Training: +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6
With Greater Specialization: +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8
With Haste: +19/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9.
With Strengt: +28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18/+18
With +2 Weapon: +30/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20/+20
Damage Per Attack is: 1d6+24/1d6+24/1d6+24/1d6+24/1d6+24/1d6+24/1d6+24 or an average of 192.5 if all attacks hit. Also for those at home watching, you'll notice that the Fighter has a higher accuracy, and therefor hits more often, resulting in a higher DPR when you factor in armor class or further penalties.
Keep in mind this is the fighter unbuffed as well. With the exception of haste, he cannot be stripped of this ability via a well placed greater dispel magic as the Wilder can. At bit further down the road, when the Wilder can increase her strength bonus by another +4, the Fighter will have hit weapon training +7 and auto-confirm any critical he threatens. Again, un-buffed.
Also you'll notice that for damage dealing, the Fighter's statistics are amazingly good. He has an excellent Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, and so forth. If his wizardly buddy helps him out with some buffs, he can be far nastier.
So basically, we can see that our Wilder has fallen into the usual trap. He has basically did everything in his power and built his entire build around the idea of using this "overpowered power" to still end up wasting power and feats on being an inferior Fighter, when he could have just been a great caster. He makes a good gish though, but honestly so do Eldritch Knights (eldritch knights can hit a +16/+11/+6/+1 base attack bonus without losing access to 9th level spells, and gain self-access to stuff like greater magic weapon, giant form, and so forth).
I find it amusing that someoen can find broken things in it when I can pick up the core book and shatter your game into a million pieces with it. Psionics was and always has been somewhat limiting in what it can do.How do you "shatter [my] game into a million pieces?" Please provide an example. Outside of Mind Blank, I don't see ANYTHING in Pathfinder that's as powerful as you're making it sound.
Simulacrum has been mentioned. Likewise, Polymorph Any Object specifically says that it actually turns you into another creature. It can be cast multiple times to make it permanent until dispelled, which means you can turn your party's Barbarian into a dragon, or a hydra, or something else that is big, huge, with tons of attacks, and ready to go into a rage. Toss on an amulet of mighty fists (speed) and watch your babarian-hydra unleash hell as a large-sized hydra with a dozen natural attacks with a high strength bonus plus rage.
Telekinesis + Bag of Holding + Portable Hole = Dirty Trick.
Chaining Time Stop + Lots of AoE spells with durations like Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, Sleet Storm, Summoned Monsters, etc. This is a nova from hell, and it will destroy anything short of something contingencied to escape it. It makes a psionic nova look like a joke.
There are falling damage shenanigans, telekinesis shenanigans, there are armies of your clones shenanigans, etc.
A Pathfinder wizard can mimic almost every act of god in the Christian bible, including the creation of the world and creating sentient life out of dirt. This is actually the nerfed wizard, however, because in 3.5 you could even part oceans and summon the entire host of heaven to you in an instant. It's a good thing the wizards were nerfed, right? :P
Upon further examination it can't be an infinite loop simply because unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack with one another. But let's take someone with a 14/14/14 s/d/c setup. Manifest once, boost str by 28 to 42 by dumping d/c to 0, but ignore the damage. Manifest again and boost dex by 56 to 70 by dumping s/c and ignore the damage. Manifest yet again to boost Con by 112 to 126 by dumping s/d and ignore the damage. Now you have S-42 (+16) D-70 (+30) C-126 (+58) albeit for only a few rounds. You've only given a bonus to each stat once, so it's legit, and won't call into play the aforementioned unnamed bonuses rule.
How does it cause an infinite loop? I don't see it, even after re-reading the description.
Isn't the ability damage only delayed? So after hulking out for a dozen rounds you become completely comatose? Meaning if an opponent can get away for a while they can come back and slit your helpless throat?
Or am I missing some other combo where the damage is completely negated?
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Ironically, Star Wars is more like a fantasy adventure set in space. I mean you have all the classic elements of D&D fantasy. You have magic users (they even have force witches and wizards), swords and axes (both mundane and powered), lightsabers (basically magic swords), giant monsters, exotic locations, and so forth.Indeed.
Pst. Elans are a race taken directly from the Dark Sun world. You can find them in the Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium.Oh, were they in the AD&D version? Because I can't for the life of me remember them being there.
I am just trying to come up with reasons,not my own, reasons why people might assume psionics have a si fi feel to them.Call psionics "mind magic," and I doubt anyone will have that complaint.
Interestingly in the 3.5 " Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign setting the green world of Castroval is described as having lots of psionics. and the Inner Sea world guide, Castroval is described has having psychic magic.
Upon further examination it can't be an infinite loop simply because unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack with one another. But let's take someone with a 14/14/14 s/d/c setup. Manifest once, boost str by 28 to 42 by dumping d/c to 0, but ignore the damage. Manifest again and boost dex by 56 to 70 by dumping s/c and ignore the damage. Manifest yet again to boost Con by 112 to 126 by dumping s/d and ignore the damage. Now you have S-42 (+16) D-70 (+30) C-126 (+58) albeit for only a few rounds. You've only given a bonus to each stat once, so it's legit, and won't call into play the aforementioned unnamed bonuses rule.
How does it cause an infinite loop? I don't see it, even after re-reading the description.Isn't the ability damage only delayed? So after hulking out for a dozen rounds you become completely comatose? Meaning if an opponent can get away for a while they can come back and slit your helpless throat?
Or am I missing some other combo where the damage is completely negated?
The 2 point augment lets you ignore until the power ends. The 6 point augment lets you ignore them once it ends. For 8 points you ignore the ability damage and get +ML to one physical stat.
As to my other comment about the mechanics of Psychofeedback, somehow I missed the "up to your manifester level" part. It's totally not even as broken as I thought it was, and I didn't think it was broken.
The 2 point augment lets you ignore until the power ends. The 6 point augment lets you ignore them once it ends. For 8 points you ignore the ability damage and get +ML to one physical stat.
As to my other comment about the mechanics of Psychofeedback, somehow I missed the "up to your manifester level" part. It's totally not even as broken as I thought it was, and I didn't think it was broken.
Don't you have to be level 17 to spend that many power points? At that level, there are better things you can be doing.
I'd honestly be happy if they used Dreamscarred's stuff for Castrovel and Vudra in the setting material, similar to how Tome of Horrors is frequently referenced.
The idea of purely Vancian psionics just leaves me cold.
I agree. There's certainly precedent for using 3rd party products, if only just. Personally I think that the DSP Psionics book isn't quite polished. It doesn't have the consistent level of editing of the PF products and I don't think they fixed the few things that needed to be fixed, otherwise I think Paizo would at least consider it. As it stands I doubt that is the route they will go.
I agree. There's certainly precedent for using 3rd party products, if only just. Personally I think that the DSP Psionics book isn't quite polished. It doesn't have the consistent level of editing of the PF products and I don't think they fixed the few things that needed to be fixed, otherwise I think Paizo would at least consider it. As it stands I doubt that is the route they will go.I'd honestly be happy if they used Dreamscarred's stuff for Castrovel and Vudra in the setting material, similar to how Tome of Horrors is frequently referenced.
The idea of purely Vancian psionics just leaves me cold.
James and company don't like point based psionics or the history of fail attached to the name from prior editions. As long as those two things are there it will never be official.
There are people that hate it due to the early versions, and even when all their fears are logic'd away will just say "I still don't like it."| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
James and company don't like point based psionics or the history of fail attached to the name from prior editions. As long as those two things are there it will never be official.
There are people that hate it due to the early versions, and even when all their fears are logic'd away will just say "I still don't like it."
Stupid. This is it.
For everyone at home, pay attention. Don't be stupid.
Wizards/sorcerers/clerics/oracles can simply take one spell and make all psionics moot, Wish/Miracle. "I wish psionics did not exist on this world" = Spell casters winning.I'm sorry, but I don't think any GM in their right mind would allow that to function.
Would you allow "I wish divine spellcasters did not exist on this world" to stop all clerics/paladins/oracles from existing?
Would you allow "I wish music didn't exist on this world" to cripple all bards?
Wish/Miracle have a number of set limitations. Anything beyond those limitations is risky and down to GM discretion.
Well since we were talking about GMs who were obviously unintelligent, my example fits. What 'good' GM in their right mind would allow a player to take the same feat twice at first level after maximizing to ensure they got the most pp they could WITHOUT some sort of justification as to why this is so? I know I wouldn't allow it.
The person in question was talking about how a player could do all these crazy things and assumed every GM would just allow it to occur. So, I decided to take his example and apply it to magic. "Did you know there are spells in the game that allow a player to simply kill with a word?" To you and I, we would say, "sure, but they are limited" but that isn't the point to individuals like this because they assume the person running the game is a moron.
Oh, as a final note I just thought of a counter for Psychofeedback + Improved Invisibility. True Seeing + Greater Dispel Magic/Psionics. Most spell casters will cast True Seeing before a battle and casting a targeted dispel will leave the character gimped. So no, it is not the super combo you think it is because technically it could be overcome with a 2nd level spell (see invisibility) and a 3rd (dispel magic).
Wizards/sorcerers/clerics/oracles can simply take one spell and make all psionics moot, Wish/Miracle. "I wish psionics did not exist on this world" = Spell casters winning.I'm sorry, but I don't think any GM in their right mind would allow that to function.
Would you allow "I wish divine spellcasters did not exist on this world" to stop all clerics/paladins/oracles from existing?
Would you allow "I wish music didn't exist on this world" to cripple all bards?
Wish/Miracle have a number of set limitations. Anything beyond those limitations is risky and down to GM discretion.
I agree. If that were the case campaigns would not even need to be ran. The high level caster could just wish he were sucessful, and that would be it. I know there was an equivalent psionic power also. I am sure trying the same thing with regard to magic users will just make the GM laugh.
I thought that was a joke so I went to the post and read the entire thing. Now I see that JMD031 was serious.
Not really, see above reply.
Not really, see above reply.Wizards/sorcerers/clerics/oracles can simply take one spell and make all psionics moot, Wish/Miracle. "I wish psionics did not exist on this world" = Spell casters winning.I'm sorry, but I don't think any GM in their right mind would allow that to function.
Would you allow "I wish divine spellcasters did not exist on this world" to stop all clerics/paladins/oracles from existing?
Would you allow "I wish music didn't exist on this world" to cripple all bards?
Wish/Miracle have a number of set limitations. Anything beyond those limitations is risky and down to GM discretion.
I agree. If that were the case campaigns would not even need to be ran. The high level caster could just wish he were sucessful, and that would be it. I know there was an equivalent psionic power also. I am sure trying the same thing with regard to magic users will just make the GM laugh.
I thought that was a joke so I went to the post and read the entire thing. Now I see that JMD031 was serious.
What feat is taken twice at first level? I may have missed a post.
Don't you have to be level 17 to spend that many power points? At that level, there are better things you can be doing.The 2 point augment lets you ignore until the power ends. The 6 point augment lets you ignore them once it ends. For 8 points you ignore the ability damage and get +ML to one physical stat.
As to my other comment about the mechanics of Psychofeedback, somehow I missed the "up to your manifester level" part. It's totally not even as broken as I thought it was, and I didn't think it was broken.
13th level as a Wilder because they can surge for +4 ML. But even at 13th level I'd say they have better things to be doing, even if it's blasting. Kineticists make blasting worthwhile because you can dish out SO MUCH damage and with the right powers for the right situation (energy missile) you can even ignore the normal drawback of blasting which is hitting allies.
Like okay you crank your Str by 17 to something like 40 let's say. +15 to hit/damage. Well you could, instead, do a 15d6+15 Empowered Energy Missile, average damage 101, 50 on a made save, to 5 targets. Since you will likely have a Cha of 26+, the DC will be 26 (15pp=DC 8+10 base+8 Cha) and targeting a bad save at level 13 which is 12, they only have a 35% chance of saving.
People look at Psionics as a new thing and say this or that is overpowered only in comparison to Magic which perhaps can't do that exact thing. They don't go back and realize all the things magic can do that Psionics can't or at least doesn't.While I agree that this is the case, I still feel that Psychofeedback is very overpowered, especially when used by a Wilder. Being able to boost all of your physical stats by a manifester level that's boosted by your wild surge in a class that wears armor, has a 3/4 level BAB, and makes great use of Vigor, which is far and away the best temporary HP source in the game seems like a recipe for disaster to me.
Wilders are meant to be hyper-specialised manifesters, though. Count the number of powers: even the student wilder maxes out at 15 powers at 20th level, less than 1/3 the number of spells a sorcerer can cast and with an added risk factor in using their primary class feature. So they can take vigor? Big deal, there are other powers that are far more useful to a low-level wilder (I mean, having good hit points is great, but it doesn't help you do anything). Wilder's will always select powers that are multi-use and augmentable, because they need to get the most bang for their buck.
I was involved in the DSP discussion when creating the PU, and everything was given a good going over to ensure that the power levels of the manifesters stayed relatively even to their caster equivalents. Unless something got past us, there's nothing broken in the system - at least, that magic in core Pathfinder doesn't do as brokenly, and probably more so. About the only thing that psionics can do better than magic is blasting, which is also probably the least effective caster/manifester style there is, and in psionics carries an additional resource cost.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I had a wilder in my game for a while that was basically a summon specialist. A strong build, but no worse than the Summoner is now.
I can understand why some dislike a point based magic system. Just as I understand some people's distaste for the slot based system. I'm perfectly happy to allow them to co-exist and allow my player's to decide which they prefer.
I don't believe Paizo will ever officially adopt the Dreamscarred Press version, even though it is a well done, and faithful, conversion of the old 3.5 psionics. On the other hand, they plan to, whenever they get to it, use different class names so both can co-exist in the same game without difficulty.
More options is better in my book!
Agreed! I think it is a shame, but they have an eye on the fact that they need to 'keep it simple' for the society games and adventure paths. Ultimately, Pathfinder RPG is a supporting product to the adventures, and that means that they will want to keep the adventures such that they can be played with just the core books (Pathfinder RPG and Bestiary). This rules out any extra magic system that can't be summed up in half a page when it's included, really. I can't blame them for that, though!
What feat is taken twice at first level? I may have missed a post.
See this post.
The reason why GMs freak about psionics is that they see what a first level psion can do, and extrapolate from there, not realizing that first level psions are in some ways at the height of their (comparative) power.
Take a first level Elan psion. (One of my actual complaints is how powerful Elans are compared to humans, but that's for another day.) Let's say he has an Int of 18, almost a certainty for a psion. So, he gets 2 points of power from his psion class, 2 points of power from having a high int, 1 point of power from the elan's favored class bonus and 2 points of power from being psionically talented. He takes his two feats as two more levels of psionically talented for a total of 14 power points. Which means he can use 14 first level powers a day, compared to a sorcerer who has at best 5 spells per day if he has a cha of 20.
Now he takes 3 powers plus 2 talents. Let's say he is a shaper. For his talents, he chooses ectoplasmic creation and entangling ectoplasm. Ectoplasmic creation is basically minor creation, a 4th level spell, that he can "cast" for free, while entangling ectoplasm is a ranged touch attack that entangles a target, also for free. For his powers, he takes astral construct (basically his summon monster spell, except he only has to take it once to get the entire chain), demoralize (all targets within 30' save vs will or be shaken for a minute) and matter agitation, which is basically heat metal, but better since it can affect flesh and other objects, and can do over ten rounds 8d6+1d4+1 points of damage. As a first level power.
Psions also can use their powers while wearing armor, so he can run around in leather (and later mithril shirts and mithril shields) without problems. So GMs see these "sorcerers" able to cast 3 times as many spells and more powerful spells, all while wearing armor.
Now by later levels, the psion's powers and abilities are more comparable to other classes, and things are much more balanced, but the damage is done. GMs have that "OMG,...
Wizards/sorcerers/clerics/oracles can simply take one spell and make all psionics moot, Wish/Miracle. "I wish psionics did not exist on this world" = Spell casters winning.I'm sorry, but I don't think any GM in their right mind would allow that to function.
Would you allow "I wish divine spellcasters did not exist on this world" to stop all clerics/paladins/oracles from existing?
Would you allow "I wish music didn't exist on this world" to cripple all bards?
Wish/Miracle have a number of set limitations. Anything beyond those limitations is risky and down to GM discretion.
I agree. If that were the case campaigns would not even need to be ran. The high level caster could just wish he were sucessful, and that would be it. I know there was an equivalent psionic power also. I am sure trying the same thing with regard to magic users will just make the GM laugh.
I thought that was a joke so I went to the post and read the entire thing. Now I see that JMD031 was serious.
Oh PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Make those wishes! I love wish spells.
"I wish no psionics existed in the world..."
Your wish is my command, suddenly EVERYTHING in YOUR world is a mindless zombie, because well maybe that includes neurological function as well.
"I wish music didn't exist in the world, and suddenly the wind stops bringing on world destruction, and all birds die, etc."
Oh I love world breaking wish spells.
Interestingly in the 3.5 " Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign setting the green world of Castroval is described as having lots of psionics. and the Inner Sea world guide, Castroval is described has having psychic magic.
And then, there's Vudra.
On the other hand, they plan to, whenever they get to it, use different class names so both can co-exist in the same game without difficulty.
Why would that be necessary? Just make 'em archetypes or altclasses or something.
At 1000 feet the wizard can't see you to target you either.It's DC 100 normally, but if the wizard uses one of many divination effects he/she can definitely see you.
Also, wasn't there a Supreme Invisibility spell in 3.5 that you couldn't see through even with True Seeing? I think it was an 8th level spell.No, there wasn't.
1)That's a copout and you know it. What divination? Scrying? Takes an hour to cast. Greater Scrying? You still get a save and it doesn't let you target spells through it except certain ones. Arcane Eye? Slow as molasses and still doesn't let you target through it. Please tell me how the wizard is targeting someone at 1000+ feet. At 15th level, even long range spells only have 1000 ft range. Attack spells will pop invisibility, unless the wizard uses summons, in which case they are close range, <100 feet even at level 15. Summons have their own drawbacks and are easily defeated. If the wizard has improved invis it only lasts rounds. Which brings us to:
2)Yes, yes there WAS. Again, you make me do the legwork because you have no arguments any more. Superior Invisibility is in the Spell Compendium. It lasts minutes per level, doesn't end if the subject attacks, masks ALL forms of detection including scent and blindsight. It also makes the subject immune to glitterdust, fairy fire, invis purge, and see invis. The ONLY way to foil it is True Seeing, which has a 250g material component and 120ft range so wouldn't defeat your example wizard. And it was in 3.5.
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as written you can get 2-handed strength on both main and off-hand attacksThis is incorrect. "A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it."
Actually RAW she is correct, but it is not RAI.
The quote you mentioned only has a penalty on attacks not damage so by RAW the damage is not affected.edit:I was not implying that Ashiel does not know how the rule works. I realized my comment could be read that way.
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as written you can get 2-handed strength on both main and off-hand attacksThis is incorrect. "A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it."
Actually, yeah, as written, you do. Here is the relevant info. I won't even go so far as to say it's RAI, but it's RAW.
The double weapon Fighter basically revolves around these key concepts.
1) Having the accuracy and static damage boosts to make dual-wielding worth the effort.
2) Having the feats to handle the heavy investment it takes to make dual-wielding viable.
3) Being able to fully capitalize on the Power Attack feat while dual-wielding.
4) Being able to fully capitalize on a high Strength score while dual-wielding.
The relevant rules are cited here.
"Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon."
"Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage."
"Double Slice (Combat)
Your off-hand weapon while dual-wielding strikes with greater power.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.
Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand."
"Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon - only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."
According to both the Double Weapon entry and the Two-Weapon Fighting rules, double weapons only count as one-handed and light weapon for the purposes of ATTACK penalties. In other words, it is still a two-handed weapon during these attacks. The double-weapon entry notes that you may use the double weapon as only a two-handed weapon by attacking with a single end of the weapon, so you are not required to accept the dual-wielding penalties if you're not striking with both ends at the same time. However, according to the rules it doesn't cause the double weapon actually become a one-handed and light weapon.
Likewise, Power Attack states that the bonus to damage is increased by 50% if the attack is made with a two-handed weapon. It then says the bonus is then halved for off-hand attacks or secondary natural weapons. Thus a 20th level Fighter with a -6 to hit would deal +18 on all main-hand attacks with his double weapon, and +9 with all off hand attacks (+18 / 2 = +9).
Finally Double-Slice allows you to use your full strength bonus on off-hand attacks instead of the -50% strength modifier. Because you are wielding a two-handed weapon, the rules for handed weapons providing a +50% strength modifier to damage, allowing you to get to apply a +50% strength modifier. Because the character is allowed to apply their abilities in the most beneficial order, the net result is 1.5 on both primary and off-hand while wielding a double-weapon with double slice.
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It's important to note that such a build is incredibly feat intensive. It requires no less than Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Two-Weapon Rend, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Focus, Greater Specialization, and possibly an Exotic Weapon proficiency feat if using anything other than a quarterstaff (making that 8-9 feats before branching out into other options). That's nearly all of a Fighter's bonus feats over 20 levels, and nearly 1/2 of the character's total feats. A ranger might also be able to pull it off, but it probably wouldn't be worth it except against his favored enemy. The build also requires a certain amount of multi-ability dependancy, as an above average Dexterity is needed at most levels to be able to pull it off (You need a 15 Dex at 1st level, 17 Dex at 6th, and 19 at 11th).
Ergo, with sufficiently high investment, a Fighter can make a double-weapon very scary. If you're wondering why anyone would dual-wield with anything but a double weapon, the biggest reason is because it's not feasible for some classes to bother with Power Attack and a high Strength modifier. This is especially true with classes that have an average to poor base attack bonus, where the bonus from Power Attack would hurt more and pack less power at each level of play. It's also pretty much useless for Finesse based warriors who rely on bonus precision damage such as with Sneak Attack to get the job done, who can comfortably inflict heavy damage while focusing entirely on Dexterity and improving accuracy with their weapons, while being able to function on about 4 feats for the bulk of their build (finesse, twf, improved twf, greater twf).
Also, you forgot to use Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, and Offensive Prescience, all of which can be used as a swift action without expending psionic focus. Also, your base damage would be 1d8 because you'd be taking the Heirloom Weapon trait to use a Two-Bladed Sword.
Fighter can take Heirloom Weapon as well. God only knows why he'd want to waste a trait for a +1 to hit that can be lost, but hey, whatever works.
I didn't forget those at all. The thing is, you're talking more buffs. You were already saying that you're using hustle to move and full-attack, so where do you find the time in the round to manifest Offensive Precognition?
Likewise, manifesting it as a swift-action requires you to drop an extra 6 PP into it (7 PP) for a +1 insight bonus to attack, while to get your lowest attacks to match the Fighter's lowest attack requires 12 PP, so the most you can pump is a +2 at 13th, or a +3 if you also surged it (again checking vs enervation).
And of course again, this was against an unbuffed Fighter. Beyond merely being hasted (which both participates were assumed to be), the Fighter has absolutely no buffs. Not enlarge person, not heroism, not inspire courage, etc.
He also wasn't using Power Attack. If he was his Attack and Damage routine would be this instead:
+26/+26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16
1d6+33/1d6+33/1d6+27/1d6+33/1d6+27/1d6+33/1d6+27 = 226.7 if all hit.
And most importantly, you can't strip the Fighter's effectiveness with a single casting of greater dispel magic or dispel psionics.
Also, you should take Biofeedback so you can have a Viscious weapon without worrying about the damage you do to yourself. Also, many players choose to play with bigger point-spreads than 15, but either way I don't like the point-spread you listed, since you can tank Wisdom, Int, and Con, since you can get tons of temporary hitpoints through use of Vigor and you can use a +6 Wisdom equip to get your Wisdom high enough for Psionic Meditation, and the points you can add is limited by Psychofeedback anyway. Also, I wouldn't use Psionic Reformation, since you don't have to and it's suboptimal at this level.
15 point buy is the standard and what the game is based around.
Vicious Weapons deal an untyped energy damage, so damage reduction - even DR x/- - is useless against it. Also, you're buffing up again I see, with Vigor.As for the spread I did, it was was based on 2 things. 1) Having enough points in enough things to spread the tanking of the ability score out, so that you didn't leave yourself too vulnerable, 2) to still be a competent manifester. I also assumed perhaps you got the psychic reformation via an NPC-spellcaster, and didn't even count it among your powers. However, if you didn't use it, then you would need a 15 Dex early in your career, and then a 17 dex a bit later. I also assumed Wish shenanigans which fall into your favor greatly, because without it, some of your saving-throw stats would be hosed.
Also, you will max Stealth so you can use your special once-per-ten-minute wild surge to have Concealing Amorpha on you at all times so you (and someone adjacent to you) can always make Stealth checks, regardless of the situation. By the way, Greater Concealing Amorpha is extremely powerful. Additionally, you don't need to really "take a feat" to get Psychofeedback at level 13, since you get Expanded Knowledge as a bonus feat at that level.
Hence why I didn't count the Expanded Knowledge as an investment.
Also, blur does the same thing with the Fighter, and is a cheap buff. If you can afford a vicious weapon, I'm pretty sure a Fighter can afford to get him some blur (and with the Fighter's excellent Dexterity and Armor Training, not suck at Stealth either).Furthermore, by delaying the penalty, you can boost any or all your physical stats by 17 this way, rather than just Str.
No, you can't, unless you're casting it multiple times. In which case, pray, pray, praaay that it doens't get dispelled or else you're probably close to being a vegetable, since the ability damage hits you all at once when the power fades.
I blame your poor choice of a stat spread as the reason that the wilder isn't outperforming the fighter. Plus, don't forget that the Wilder can do things like replenish his temporary hit points on his own or have a kung-fu-grip telekinetic maneuver with a 54 CMD.
I'm willing to see your preferred stat spread. Also, I see telekinetic maneuver and raise you freedom of movement.
Quick Recap
The wilder in this case has invested the following Powers Known.
1) Vigor
2) Offensive Precognition
3) Offensive Precscience
4) Defensive Precognition
5) Concealing Amorpha
6) Hustle
7) Solicit Psycrystal
8) Bite of the Wolf
9) Telekinetic Maneuver
A 13th level Wilder only knows 7 Powers. And you're supposed to be a caster! :P
You receive Expanded Knowledge at 5th, 9th, and 13th level, which means at 5th you can pick up a 2nd level power, at 9th you get your Greater Concealing Amorpha, and 13th grabs your Psychofeedback.
Congratulations, you can now buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, and buff some more, to go from being a dinky 2nd tier warrior to a strong 1st tier warrior, right up until someone dispels your stuff, or ignores your "I whack it with my stick" strategy.
Personally? I'd prefer grabbing Astral Construct and spamming summons left and right, while grabbing a few blasty powers (energy missile looks good as your 5th level expanded knowledge option), a few battlefield control (wall of ectoplasm is kinda nice), grab inertial armor and surge it occasionally for AC, and possibly pick up psionic charm. Vigor is a good investment for survival. I approve.
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As I've stated before, this argument can't be won with logic. The way forward is to argue how super powered and awesome magic is and then get the person to be like "no way, it doesn't work that way" because then they may see where they were wrong about psionics. Of course by posting this, it will become an impossibility.
So I go and pull out my DS monstrous compendium. Don't see it, bro. It's not under E for Elan or it would be between Elf and Fael. You sure about that?My group uses psionics in a Dark Sun campaign and thus doesn't have Elans. I'm not even sure where/if they belong.Pst. Elans are a race taken directly from the Dark Sun world. You can find them in the Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium.
I think they were as well, Mind lords of the last sea perhaps? Or one of the other late 2e books or box sets.
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Also it's worth noting that each time the wilder surges, there is a 15% chance that she suffers psychic enervation and loses PP * Manifester Level, which can suck, as it's basically like flushing a high-level spell down the pooper each time you enervate.
Our Wilder's PP: 205.5 (28 Charisma via Wish Shenanigans)
- Pre-Combat: Surge Vigor (13 PP, +65 Temp. HP for 17 minutes)
- Pre-Combat: Surge Bite of the Wolf (12 PP, gain 4d8 bite for 17 minutes)
- Pre-Combat: Concealing Amorpha (3 PP, gain 20% concealment for 17 minutes)
- Pre-Combat: Surge Offensive Precogniton (13 PP, +5 insight to hit for 17 minutes)
- Pre-Combat: Surge Offensive Prescience (13 PP, +7 insight bonus to damage for 17 minutes)
- Pre-Combat: Surge Defensive Precognition (13 PP, +5 insight bonus to AC and saves for 17 minutes)
- Pre-Combat: Surge Psychofeedback (13 PP, pump strength at cost of other stats for 17 minutes)
- Pre-Combat Total: 80 PP spent or about 40% of your daily limits.
We have surged 6 powers so statistically we should suffer enervation for another 13 PP, bringing our total cost to 93 PP / 205 PP.
Assuming you get into combat within the next 17 Minutes
- Combat: Hustle (3 PP, gain a move action as a swift action)
- Combat: Move up to your speed (estimated 60 ft with flying boots or similar) and full-attack once, probably killing 1 enemy assuming most attacks land (and you're pulling dual-wielding a double weapon).
- Subsequent Rounds: Repeat.
The average game assumes 4 encounters per day. However, sometimes you end up with more or less, and sometimes encounters are mixed with traps, terrain issues, and so forth. Long story short, you have to wait 8 hours from the time you manifest a power until you can recover those power points.
So for about 34 minutes out of the 8 hour day, you're awesome(TM)!
That is until you get smacked with greater dispel magic and half your buffs are dismantled.
A CR 13 Ghaele would have a 25% chance to dispel each spell using greater dispel magic (cleric spell), and a 45% to dispel anything we didn't surge. Now since you surged, there is only a 25% chance per spell that you will have something dispelled, but it tests vs every buff, and so statistically you will have something removed, and if that something happens to be psychofeedback or vigor, then you're going to find yourself looking a lot squishier. This is especially true since they can do so from 230 ft away, which is out of full-attack range with your uber-strength build.
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Also, you forgot to use Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, and Offensive Prescience, all of which can be used as a swift action without expending psionic focus. Also, your base damage would be 1d8 because you'd be taking the Heirloom Weapon trait to use a Two-Bladed Sword. Also, you should take Biofeedback so you can have a Viscious weapon without worrying about the damage you do to yourself. Also, many players choose to play with bigger point-spreads than 15, but either way I don't like the point-spread you listed, since you can tank Wisdom, Int, and Con, since you can get tons of temporary hitpoints through use of Vigor and you can use a +6 Wisdom equip to get your Wisdom high enough for Psionic Meditation, and the points you can add is limited by Psychofeedback anyway. Also, I wouldn't use Psionic Reformation, since you don't have to and it's suboptimal at this level.
Also, you will max Stealth so you can use...
Hold on, where the hell is a wilder going to get that many powers from? He can't take Expanded Knowledge every other level because he needs the combat feats as well, so what gives?
A first level wilder is going to know ONE power only, so which power will it be, and will it (a) help him survive and (b) make him useful to the party? Does any of the powers you list cut that muster? No.
As Ashiel has pointed out, your wilder build can do that one thing IF he has time to prep before combat and IF he blows every power and feat he has to do that one thing. In all other circumstances, he sucks. As he can't pull this off without all the powers, he basically sucks before he gets to this level. You can make this wilder with a 25-point buy and up until the level where he can pull this trick off, he still sucks, spending most of the time being a 2nd tier warrior. After he gets to this level, he only sucks half the time.
What this proves is that you can build a wilder that makes a 'buffed warrior' concept, that it can sometimes totally pwn the opposition, but that it's not exactly going to put the party fighter out of work any time soon - or in other words, it ain't broken by a long chalk.
Yeah I recall seeing them. It could have been one of the novels or maybe one of those mega adventurers I forget the name. dark spire or something of the like.
A 13th level Wilder only knows 7 Powers.This is not true of the student archetype.
I covered that. Notice I didn't even list psychofeedback and greater concealing amorpha because you had to get those via your Expanded Knowledges at 9th and 13th level, and I also noticed it takes your 5th level Expanded Knowledge to learn Hustle, which still leaves you maxed, and you'll need to expend one of your own feats for Bite of the Wolf and no sooner than 5th level.
So that leaves you with 7/7 Wilder Powers, 3/3 Expanded Knowledge from your class, and 1/6 feats spent on Expanded Knowledge, then another 3 feats spent on two-weapon fighting, bringing you to 4/6 feats, and all your psionic powers focusing on this. Psychic Meditation brings you to 5/6 feats , and combat manifestation brings you to 6/6 feats.
1)That's a copout and you know it. What divination?Prying Eyes.
Try reading the spell sometime. The eyes return to you before you know anything is where they are, and they move fairly slowly. They are visible and destroyable and if you destroy them the wizard gets no info from them. Also, again, you can't actually cast spells through them.
I'm not being a jerk, your argument is "wizard is omg invincible" so I say "show me how" and you say "divinations". It's flippant and not adding to the debate whatsoever. Your contention is that the wizard would be invincible and mine is that may be, but he also can't do anything from far enough away that he can't just be spotted and get Greater Dispelled at the level you're talking about. For the record I do think wizards are the most powerful class in the game but this is far from being their best trick, and pretty much everyone else agrees that it's a nerf from 3.5 Mind Blank.
To sort of answer the OP's question, in addition to the link to Lisa's post, here are some quotes from James Jacobs from about a year ago:
For better or worse, we've attached psionics pretty heavilly to Vudra. And that means that before we can go ahead with a big Vudra project, we need to know how psionics work in Pathfinder, and I very much doubt we'll be tackling psionics before we tackle epic rules, and we won't be tackling epic rules for a while.
AKA: Vudra is, at the soonest, many years away.
and
I am sure Paizo will come up with excellently written flavor or “Fluff”. May I suggest a compromise? Don’t bother calling the “Psionic” materiel “psionic”. Call it Vudrani, call it Castrovali, Just don't call it psioinics. Say it is a magical tradition they have developed over thousands of years, and is “unique” to their civilization. This way you can introduce some new materials, and avoid upsetting us vocal psionic fans.This is actually a route we are VERY strongly considering. For sure, we won't be updating the psion or the soulknife classes. First, if we change the way psionics work, those classes would have to change so much that they'd be too different. Second (and more important to me) I want our "psionic" classes to be identifiable by their names by ANYONE. You ask a fan of fantasy genre what a "soulknife" or a "wilder" is and they won't know unless they just happen to be 3.5 psionics fans. It's MUCH better to do new psionic classes that are themed on concepts that already exist in mythology or popular culture. Classes with names like "Pyrokineticist" or "Mesmerist" or "Fakir" or "Telepath" or "Telekinetic" or "Spiritualist" are MUCH stronger base class concepts to support psionic rules.
Or whatever we call them. Something like "mind magic" or whatever. Something that gets across the point that it's the same TYPE of thing as psionics, but by not calling them psionics we:
a) Avoid the stigma that its a science fiction element invading a fantasy game.
b) Don't "overwrite" the psionic concepts in 3.5's psionic rules, so that someone who wants to use those rules converted to Pathfinder RPG (perhaps using some new 3rd party supplement from the future, who knows?) they don't feel like they're some sort of rules outlaw.
and
And again... Paizo won't be doing much at all with Psionics in 2010, 2011, or likely even 2012. We're still YEARS away from devoting actual design time to the topic. It's not something we're champing at the bit to get started on, primarily because of all the hurdles and stumbling blocks I've outlined on this thread.
Of course, there's also THIS thread.
I think they were as well, Mind lords of the last sea perhaps? Or one of the other late 2e books or box sets.So I go and pull out my DS monstrous compendium. Don't see it, bro. It's not under E for Elan or it would be between Elf and Fael. You sure about that?My group uses psionics in a Dark Sun campaign and thus doesn't have Elans. I'm not even sure where/if they belong.Pst. Elans are a race taken directly from the Dark Sun world. You can find them in the Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium.
Don't see it there either. Honestly I've been scouring Google trying to find mention of it before 3.5. It wouldn't be a total shock since there are a TON of really minor races in Dark Sun, but I've failed to uncover any information about the Elan on Athas outside the Paizo material from 2004.
Combat manifestation is worthless. At 13th level you should be auto-succeeding on your concentration checks to cast spells without provoking an AoO.
So make it Psionic Body, Open Minded, Improved Psicrystral, Psionic Meditation, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Double Bladed Sword) or something. Either way you're maxxed out.
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Thanks Ashiel for explaining that double weapons are better in Pathfinder! Now I'm even more surprised that you don't like Heirloom Weapon, though, as it gives you weapon proficiency and the bonus of weapon focus with a single trait. I guess it depends if your DM is mean enough to send Rust Monsters after you all the time.
Heirloom Weapon has been nerfed hard. Read the errata.
Thanks Ashiel for explaining that double weapons are better in Pathfinder! Now I'm even more surprised that you don't like Heirloom Weapon, though, as it gives you weapon proficiency and the bonus of weapon focus with a single trait. I guess it depends if your DM is mean enough to send Rust Monsters after you all the time.Heirloom Weapon has been nerfed hard. Read the errata.
Yes, sadly Heirloom Weapon is useless now. It wasn't even that great to begin with.
Also, I'd just use a staff. They're 0 gp so you can start with one, and it's a 1d6/1d6/x2 double weapon, which means it's not far below 1d8/1d8/19-20, and doesn't cost a feat. But if you're a Fighter and you got feats to drop, go for it. Heck, the double-scimitar from Eberron (basically a double sword 'cept a scimitar) is 1d6/1d6/18-20, which is kinda cool for a critical build.
Thanks Ashiel for explaining that double weapons are better in Pathfinder! Now I'm even more surprised that you don't like Heirloom Weapon, though, as it gives you weapon proficiency and the bonus of weapon focus with a single trait. I guess it depends if your DM is mean enough to send Rust Monsters after you all the time.Heirloom Weapon has been nerfed hard. Read the errata.Yes, sadly Heirloom Weapon is useless now. It wasn't even that great to begin with.
Also, I'd just use a staff. They're 0 gp so you can start with one, and it's a 1d6/1d6/x2 double weapon, which means it's not far below 1d8/1d8/19-20, and doesn't cost a feat. But if you're a Fighter and you got feats to drop, go for it. Heck, the double-scimitar from Eberron (basically a double sword 'cept a scimitar) is 1d6/1d6/18-20, which is kinda cool for a critical build.
Eberron is from 3.5, though, so I'd need a flexible DM to use that one.
I'm not sure how I feel about that errata... That said, Paizo must agree with me that it was great to begin with, since they errata'd it solely to weaken it.
I think the trait was alright. I've had a few players take it. It's never impressed me as being "omg awesomesauce", even when one of the players used it to get an exotic weapon. I think the nerf was pretty needless, but you'd be amazed at how much of an outcry there was about it.
As to the double-scimitar, I guess you might need a flexible GM, but seriously it's just a weapon with a basic modification. We already have the double-axe, double-sword, and the double-scimitar is pretty basic in its design.
If your GM is hardcore against it solely for the fact it was first published in the eberron book, I'd probably question your GM's reasoning. In either case, just fall back to staff or double-sword/axe.
Creative Director
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we won't be updating the psion or the soulknife classes. First, if we change the way psionics work, those classes would have to change so much that they'd be too different. Second (and more important to me) I want our "psionic" classes to be identifiable by their names by ANYONE. You ask a fan of fantasy genre what a "soulknife" or a "wilder" is and they won't know unless they just happen to be 3.5 psionics fans.This part confuses me. Do you interpret it to mean that they might convert the classes to Pathfinder if they decide not to change the mechanics from 3.5, or do they mean that no matter what they won't bring back the 3.5 classes.
It means that the term "soulknife" is meaningless in any context other than that class.
That's not the case for ANY of our base classes. ALL of them are words that, if you say them to someone who's never even heard of RPGs but has an expansive vocabulary, will be able to tell you what that word means.
If we did a psionics book, and if said book had new base classes in it (which I assume it most certainly would), then we'd name all of those base classes after real-world words and concepts. So you'd see classes with, say, names like:
Telepath
Fakir
Seer
Mystic
Mesmerist
Psychic
Medium
Swamii
This not only lets us make Pathfinder psionics a Paizo thing and not a Wizards of the Coast hand-me-down (which appeals to me), but also follows our design philosophy that all base classes must have one-word real-world names.
Beyond this, our version of psionics would work more like the way sorcerer or oracle spells work—we'd probably ditch the power point system entirely in favor of a system that all of our customers and us here at Paizo already know how to play already. Something that established psionic fans probably would hate, and so that in and of itself is a compelling reason for us to not do a psionics book.
If we did, though, as I've said elsewhere, we'd not call them psionics. That way if you wanted to use the Dreamscarred Pathfinder psionics rules or the 3.5 ones you still could, since we'd be calling it something like "mind magic" or "psychic magic" or something else entirely.
we won't be updating the psion or the soulknife classes. First, if we change the way psionics work, those classes would have to change so much that they'd be too different. Second (and more important to me) I want our "psionic" classes to be identifiable by their names by ANYONE. You ask a fan of fantasy genre what a "soulknife" or a "wilder" is and they won't know unless they just happen to be 3.5 psionics fans.This part confuses me. Do you interpret it to mean that they might convert the classes to Pathfinder if they decide not to change the mechanics from 3.5, or do they mean that no matter what they won't bring back the 3.5 classes.
From what James has said in the past, I read it as this:
1) They don't want to be tied into the 3.5 psionics system for adventure paths because they want adventure paths to be workable with the bare minimum of core material only. You really can't use the 3.5 system without having the supplement to hand.2) If they change the system to be more core-compatible, certain classes have to change drastically, so much so that there is no hope of any backward compatibility, and they will be changing the names of the classes in any event to better describe what they do in clearer and more 'fantasy friendly' terms.
There are also two problems:
1) Those that love the 3.5 psionics system will probably hate the changes if they change it to anything that isn't backward compatible.
2) Those that hated the 3.5 psionics system will hate it if they use anything backward compatible with that system.
So basically, redoing 3.5 psionics with either a complete overhaul or as a simple upgrade to pathfinder is going to result in a significant chunk of their fan-base hating it - damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Then you have Dreamscarred Press coming along, which is perfect for Paizo because it gives the lovers the product they want, but doesn't pressure the haters to have to use it in any way. Paizo can now do a new system that is core-compatible enough to fit in adventure paths, with new names for classes too, and it won't annoy the lovers because it isn't psionics even if it is heavily 'psionics influenced', and everybody is happy. This is the way they have hinted that they are likely to go - but it's all a long way into the future.
K
Beyond this, our version of psionics would work more like the way sorcerer or oracle spells work—we'd probably ditch the power point system entirely in favor of a system that all of our customers and us here at Paizo already know how to play already. Something that established psionic fans probably would hate, and so that in and of itself is a compelling reason for us to not do a psionics book.
Please do not take this the wrong way, but with that position statement, I sincerely hope that I never ever ever see a psionics book produced. Who needs yet another vancian caster...
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stuff:It means that the term "soulknife" is meaningless in any context other than that class.That's not the case for ANY of our base classes. ALL of them are words that, if you say them to someone who's never even heard of RPGs but has an expansive vocabulary, will be able to tell you what that word means.
If we did a psionics book, and if said book had new base classes in it (which I assume it most certainly would), then we'd name all of those base classes after real-world words and concepts. So you'd see classes with, say, names like:
Telepath
Fakir
Seer
Mystic
Mesmerist
Psychic
Medium
SwamiiThis not only lets us make Pathfinder psionics a Paizo thing and not a Wizards of the Coast hand-me-down (which appeals to me), but also follows our design philosophy that all base classes must have one-word real-world names.
Beyond this, our version of psionics would work more like the way sorcerer or oracle spells work—we'd probably ditch the power point system entirely in favor of a system that all of our customers and us here at Paizo already know how to play already. Something that established psionic fans probably would hate, and so that in and of itself is a compelling reason for us to not do a psionics book.
If we did, though, as I've said elsewhere, we'd not call them psionics. That way if you wanted to use the Dreamscarred Pathfinder psionics rules or the 3.5 ones you still could, since we'd be calling it something like "mind magic" or "psychic magic" or something else entirely.
James, I love you guys, but please, please, please no more Vancian elements. I am a huge fan of 3.X, yet I really understand your position too - that of it's just not compatible enough to work with CORE (among its other downsides).
I'm going to make a suggestion: tie it to ki, like the monk and ninja. It's a logical element, and both exist heavily in Vudra. It's something that's oft been hinted at by other editions (and 4E comes right out and states that monks use psionics). You don't have to deviate so far from the CORE as 3.X psionics did, you have precedent in CORE (and wherever the ninja is found, I'm afraid I don't recall now) and ki isn't even tied to wisdom-alone, thanks to the ninja.
Doing something along this route is really a good compromise - it allows those who really don't like Vancian or its pit-falls (such as myself) to look at something interesting and different in a magical vein. Meanwhile, it also allows you to bypass the whole psionics as apparent-scifi, because you've tied them to very ancient traditions. It side-steps whether or not psionics is CORE... because it already would be by virtue of the monk. And, it allows Fakirs, Mystics, Seers, Swamiis to all have some relevance (other than "mind magic") to their elements in the real world (thus fitting with your idea of naming conventions). It even has the whole benefit of already not being called psionics, so, you know, bonus points.
Anyhoo, that's just me weighing in. I know one fan won't change the whole thought process, but I figured it's worth suggesting to you nonetheless.