Darth Uchiha's page

John Compton wrote:

As for the fitting enchantment, I'm looking at what has been a fairly innocuous armor special ability and seeing a very inexpensive backdoor to circumvent the FAQ and design team altogether. That doesn't strike me as right, and it makes me seriously question whether that special ability (entirely sound when published) remains a good fit for the campaign.

Gotchya.

Pretty hilarious that he calls it entirely sound when published, when it always allowed armor for large creatures to be bought on the cheap, even before the FAQrrata. Definitely not what I would describe as a sound or even well-designed ability.

the 2handed vs 1handed FAQ conflict. :P

What's that about? Got a link, please?

bump

Any confirmed answer for this? http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/ultimate MagicPlaytest/round2discuss/humanWordcasterSorcerersAndTheirFavoredClassBon usExtraSpells

My guess is that they have to be normal spells, and can't be words, but I'd appreciate an official answer.

Paizo staff have repeatedly endorsed Psionics Unleashed

May I have a link to such an endorsement? I imagine GMs will have an easier time accepting a 3rd-party source if I can present them with an official Paizo endorsement.

I think the Int-based sorcerer archetype should have been the psion.

What's this archetype that you speak of called? I know about the wisdom-based sorcerer archetype, but not an int-based one.

Never say never, as they say. In fact, the Words of Power system we presented in Ultimate Magic is one such variant that's not the typical Vancian magic system.

But just as I'm not fond of the idea of inventing a new way to resolve attacks with swords, I'm not so fond of the idea of presenting a new way to use magic. The game's already complex enough without us inventing more complexity; by sticking with the established magic system (which works great for our current 14 or so spellcasting classes), we don't have to deal with the numerous game-changing realities that something like the power point system brings to the table.

Thanks for taking the time to reply! It truly says something great about a company when the Creative Director is willing to answer questions on the company forum!

Beyond this, our version of psionics would work more like the way sorcerer or oracle spells work—we'd probably ditch the power point system entirely in favor of a system that all of our customers and us here at Paizo already know how to play already. Something that established psionic fans probably would hate, and so that in and of itself is a compelling reason for us to not do a psionics book.

I see. So that means there will NEVER be a power-point system in Pathfinder?

The MAIN reason I miss psionics is because I want to trade raw power for flexibility, but it sounds like there will never be a more flexible option than a wordcaster.

I'm with Jarl on this. The last thing Pathfinder needs is more vancian casters. I guess I have no choice but to use the DSP book or use a homebrew. Fortunately, I feel a LOT better about the DPS book after reading the discussions in this thread.

Best of luck to you guys.

With the huge success and numerous positive reviews Dreamscarred has had with their recent psionic product(s) for the Pathfinder RPG, however, carving out your own slice of the psionic pie might be a bit of a challenge!

Is there really more than one psionic product from DSP?

BYC wrote:

Darth Uchiha wrote:

Thanks Ashiel for explaining that double weapons are better in Pathfinder! Now I'm even more surprised that you don't like Heirloom Weapon, though, as it gives you weapon proficiency and the bonus of weapon focus with a single trait. I guess it depends if your DM is mean enough to send Rust Monsters after you all the time.

Heirloom Weapon has been nerfed hard. Read the errata.

Yes, sadly Heirloom Weapon is useless now. It wasn't even that great to begin with.

Also, I'd just use a staff. They're 0 gp so you can start with one, and it's a 1d6/1d6/x2 double weapon, which means it's not far below 1d8/1d8/19-20, and doesn't cost a feat. But if you're a Fighter and you got feats to drop, go for it. Heck, the double-scimitar from Eberron (basically a double sword 'cept a scimitar) is 1d6/1d6/18-20, which is kinda cool for a critical build.

Eberron is from 3.5, though, so I'd need a flexible DM to use that one.

I'm not sure how I feel about that errata... That said, Paizo must agree with me that it was great to begin with, since they errata'd it solely to weaken it.

combat manifestation brings you to 6/6 feats.

Combat manifestation is worthless. At 13th level you should be auto-succeeding on your concentration checks to cast spells without provoking an AoO.

James Jacobs wrote:

we won't be updating the psion or the soulknife classes. First, if we change the way psionics work, those classes would have to change so much that they'd be too different. Second (and more important to me) I want our "psionic" classes to be identifiable by their names by ANYONE. You ask a fan of fantasy genre what a "soulknife" or a "wilder" is and they won't know unless they just happen to be 3.5 psionics fans.

This part confuses me. Do you interpret it to mean that they might convert the classes to Pathfinder if they decide not to change the mechanics from 3.5, or do they mean that no matter what they won't bring back the 3.5 classes.

Thanks for setting me straight, meatrace! Mind Blank is clearly not broken after all.

Thanks Ashiel for explaining that double weapons are better in Pathfinder! Now I'm even more surprised that you don't like Heirloom Weapon, though, as it gives you weapon proficiency and the bonus of weapon focus with a single trait. I guess it depends if your DM is mean enough to send Rust Monsters after you all the time.

1)That's a copout and you know it. What divination?

Prying Eyes.

Again, you make me do the legwork because you have no arguments any more.

Wow. Nobody likes a jerk. I looked it up in the SRD and didn't see it and didn't realize that it was missing spells. Jeez.

I will continue the debate later when I have more time.

A 13th level Wilder only knows 7 Powers.

This is not true of the student archetype.

At 1000 feet the wizard can't see you to target you either.

It's DC 100 normally, but if the wizard uses one of many divination effects he/she can definitely see you.

Also, wasn't there a Supreme Invisibility spell in 3.5 that you couldn't see through even with True Seeing? I think it was an 8th level spell.

No, there wasn't.

they plan to, whenever they get to it, use different class names so both can co-exist in the same game without difficulty.

What is your source for this information? I find it astonishing, and very disappointing!

as written you can get 2-handed strength on both main and off-hand attacks

This is incorrect. "A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it."

Also, you forgot to use Offensive Precognition, Defensive Precognition, and Offensive Prescience, all of which can be used as a swift action without expending psionic focus. Also, your base damage would be 1d8 because you'd be taking the Heirloom Weapon trait to use a Two-Bladed Sword. Also, you should take Biofeedback so you can have a Viscious weapon without worrying about the damage you do to yourself. Also, many players choose to play with bigger point-spreads than 15, but either way I don't like the point-spread you listed, since you can tank Wisdom, Int, and Con, since you can get tons of temporary hitpoints through use of Vigor and you can use a +6 Wisdom equip to get your Wisdom high enough for Psionic Meditation, and the points you can add is limited by Psychofeedback anyway. Also, I wouldn't use Psionic Reformation, since you don't have to and it's suboptimal at this level.

Also, you will max Stealth so you can use your special once-per-ten-minute wild surge to have Concealing Amorpha on you at all times so you (and someone adjacent to you) can always make Stealth checks, regardless of the situation. By the way, Greater Concealing Amorpha is extremely powerful. Additionally, you don't need to really "take a feat" to get Psychofeedback at level 13, since you get Expanded Knowledge as a bonus feat at that level.

Furthermore, by delaying the penalty, you can boost any or all your physical stats by 17 this way, rather than just Str.

I blame your poor choice of a stat spread as the reason that the wilder isn't outperforming the fighter. Plus, don't forget that the Wilder can do things like replenish his temporary hit points on his own or have a kung-fu-grip telekinetic maneuver with a 54 CMD.

Assuming the wizard is also flying. First, move to an area to cramp him. If you're in a wide open area then you're asking to be wizard bombed. If there's really no where that you can use terrain against him then just invis yourself or throw up minor images to distract him. So the wizard is using silent spells? Otherwise, perception check then glitterdust. Dispel Magic. Ya might get your own buffs but oh well. Invis purge is pretty good as well or good old antimagic area. Oh those are all caster tricks? Welcome...

He's not using silent spells, he's just 1000 feet away so you get -100 on every perception check. You have invisibility, but he can cast see invisible. My point here is that the only way to not die against such a wizard is to have Mind Blank yourself. Your only "solution" is to run away. Do you see the problem here?

How does it cause an infinite loop? I don't see it, even after re-reading the description.

How does Wall of Thorns combo with Polar Midnight? Can't they just fly over the wall?

Now, after adventuring with that crappy array and being worse than a melee at melee for 12 levels, it's finally time for your build to shine. You blow 2 feats on Bite of the Wolf and Psychofeedback. Combat comes up, and you bust out biofeedback in round 1, surging for an effective ML of 17. Yowza. You enhance it so you don't take ability damage while the power is active. You get a +26 strength, for a total of 52. that's +21 to hit and damage. Round 2 you move into position and take one swing, probably hitting and doing around 50 damage if you're competent. Third round you're ready to full attack, and you do, obliterating one enemy. Then on round four...oh dang where'd everybody go? Oh yeah combat doesn't last very long. Well with a round of prep you were able to kill one dude. Too bad every caster can do that at your level, most want to incapacitate multiple enemies or if you're a kineticist just do ZOMGdamage to them....

You don't blow two feats when the Wilder class gives you Expanded Knowledge for free. Also, you probably take Hustle so you get to have a move action and a full attack action in one round. Finally, there are many combats that take longer than that. I guess you think that a spell which can add a boosted caster level to every physical stat isn't overpowered, and that's where we have a disagreement.

So, how would you deal with being attacked by an invisible Wizard that uses spells that don't give you a hint as to his location?

3e mind blank was a lot better than PF mind blank is.

WHAT?! IT LETS YOU BEAT TRUE SEEING WITH GREATER INVISIBILITY! In 3.5 it didn't stop See Invisibility or similar effects, but now it is FAR AND AWAY the most powerful spell in the game.

At level 13 or 15 or whatever, being able to buff yourself to be good in melee isn't...really important. I mean I guess it's a cool trick, but as a wilder you should be doing far crazier things.

I mean, if you want to get down to it, a Wizard who doesn't dump strength can cast Giant Shape and Transformation to become a pretty crazy melee beast for a combat or two. Around the same level, 13-15. But in reality he's better off casting Prismatic Wall or some Black Tentacles. Etc.

Transformation gives an enhancement bonus so it doesn't overlap with easily accessible magic items. Giant Form II is 8th level and only gives

I find it amusing that someoen can find broken things in it when I can pick up the core book and shatter your game into a million pieces with it. Psionics was and always has been somewhat limiting in what it can do.

How do you "shatter [my] game into a million pieces?" Please provide an example. Outside of Mind Blank, I don't see ANYTHING in Pathfinder that's as powerful as you're making it sound.

People look at Psionics as a new thing and say this or that is overpowered only in comparison to Magic which perhaps can't do that exact thing. They don't go back and realize all the things magic can do that Psionics can't or at least doesn't.

While I agree that this is the case, I still feel that Psychofeedback is very overpowered, especially when used by a Wilder. Being able to boost all of your physical stats by a manifester level that's boosted by your wild surge in a class that wears armor, has a 3/4 level BAB, and makes great use of Vigor, which is far and away the best temporary HP source in the game seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

You only get a +1 modifier for every 2 points your ability scores increase (12, 14, 16, 18, etc). Thus at 20th level, grabbing and dropping 20 points from all your other stats results in a net +10 to the modifier of that ability score. That's +10 to hit and damage for 20 rounds, or until dispelled.

Oh, I thought you were talking about +1 to a stat, not to the modifier.

That's impressive. Most dragons tend to have pretty beastly CMD. That would be 13 BAB + 12 Charisma (assuming wish shenanigans via a 13th level wizard in your party) + wild surge for another +2 maybe? That's like +27, and allows Spell Resistance when you attempt it. A CR 13 Bronze Dragon has a CMD 36 (40 vs Trip) and SR 24. You have to roll an 11+ to beat his SR and a 9+ to beat his CMD (or 13+ for Tripping). That's less than a 50% chance of successfully pulling off your attempt each round.

Most will have lower numbers. I do love Telekinetic Maneuver, however, and it's a fun power to play around with, and it's a good control power. I'm not sure it's as strong as most battlefield control abilities since it is weaker vs martial creatures and allows SR and is single target, but it's definitely pretty cool.

Oops I misspoke. With my +31 CMB I only have a 60% chance of success against that dragon with it, and only a 30% chance against a CR 15 very old black dragon. What I meant was that, once grappled, they can never beat its 54 CMD. I use Greater Power Penetration and expend my focus which I get back as a move action afterwards. If I happen to fail the SR check, I just try again next round. Once I beat the SR, I use Solicit Psicrystal and have a 30% chance of overcoming the dragon each round, and don't have to spend any actions to do so.

As is, you need 2 manifester levels per +1 to be gained.

How so? Each manifester level lets you increase a stat by one.

What is a Psionic Sandwich?

I forgot to mention that being able to grapple things with telekinetic maneuver as a Wilder and use solicit psicrystal to pass concentration off to your psicrystal is probably also overpowered. My level 13 Wilder can grapple CR 15 dragons without the possibility of them escaping.

If it makes you feel any better, there are still plenty of other methods to stop invisibility. Faerie Fire, Glitterdust, Invisibility Purge. None can be blocked by either mind-blank or barred mind. Likewise, mundane methods of detection, such as throwing flour on them (probably a splash weapon) or similar still work.

You have to know where they are for any of these to work. No reason they can't just cast spells on your from a distance.

As for the wilder bit, that could get pretty powerful. That would take no less than 2 feats invested (Expanded Knowledge (Bite of the Wolf), Expanded Knowledge (Psychofeedback)) and would require them to be 15th level at the minimum, get buffed, and full-attack. You could definitely dish out some heavy pain with an extra +10-20 damage on every attack, but honestly by that level I wouldn't be amazingly shocked. If you feel strongly about it, however, you might consider just house-ruling the damage to be burn again. That way the ability damage has to heal naturally, meaning that they cannot pull this trick often.

Level 13, not 15. Also, the best Wilder archetype gets expanded knowledge as bonus feats anyway. Even if you house-rule it to be ability burn again, it's still really broken at level 21 when they can completely remove the drawback.

True mind switch is kind of awesome. It hasn't really changed much at all since 3.5. It was around in 3.5 just as potent. As to core, someone was talking about how it's entirely possible to use a core spell (it's a necromancy spell that is escaping my memory at the moment) to swap bodies with a tarrasque. Honestly true mind-switch is awesome but IMHO not as game-breaking as some core material already is.

How do you swap bodies with a tarrasque using a core necromancy spell? Please try to find the spell. I've never seen such a thing and it's really ridiculous I just read every necromancy spell and still have no idea what you're talking about. I suspect that someone was using a 3rd-party resource or pulling your leg.

Eternal Warrior is pretty badass, for the psychic warrior. However, to maximize its potential you are going to want to pimp Wisdom like crazy. Psychic warriors are fairly multi-ability dependent, and the standard game assumes 15 point buy. Honestly, I would be very surprised if they had more than a +8 on average and likely no higher than a +12 by that level. Also eternal warrior only lasts for 5 minutes, which means that it's an amazing self-buff for the next 5 minutes,...

Having a five-minute duration is far more than enough to last for all of a normal combat, and a +12 boost to all those stats is really overpowered in my opinion.

Dude, Mind Blank and Barred Mind are identical in their effects. What makes Barred Mind better, other than it mentions the psionic versions of the same stuff that Mind Blank blocks (and it blocks Psionics as well due to Transparency)?

Oops my mistake! Thanks for teaching me that they changed Mind Blank in Pathfinder. I think it's really overpowered that it can make greater invisibility so powerful!

Yeah, think about what you just said with Mind Crush. You have to spend two feats and burn your focus on the hope that they will fail the save. Meanwhile, it's also a full level higher than phantasmal killer, but they save as if it was 3 levels lower (notice they get a +4 bonus on the save to avoid it). It's vastly inferior to flesh to stone, and it's arguably worse than baleful polymorph at the same level.

I had never realized how powerful flesh to stone is! You're absolutely right.

Meanwhile, Temporal Acceleration plus Wilder huh? Well that would require them to be able to manifest 7th level powers, so that's 15th level minimum (see they can manifest 7th level powers at 14, but they cannot take Expanded Knowledge (Psychofeedback) until they hit 15th level). Even with a +30 to strength for 15 rounds, that would only be +15 to hit and +10 to hit and +15 to damage, which is comparable to a Paladin using Smite, except it inflicts a crapton of ability damage on themselves for using it, and requires them to expend a lot in the way of their power points (having to pop temporal and then pop psychofeedback).

It's not hard for a Wilder to gain 4 more attacks than that, thanks to Bite of the Wolf, TWF, ITWF, and Haste. Consider if it's 50 instead of 30. At level 21+, this spell can just give a bonus to a stat equal to the sum of every other stat! It's completely insane.

As 2/3 of my examples turned out to be bad, here's two more: the Eternal Warrior ability of the Psychic Warrior and True Mind Switch.

Thank you for showing me that I was wrong about Barred Mind and Psychic Crush! I'm amazed that Paizo printed Mind Blank, as the ability to hack monsters up while having invisibility that can't be beaten with true seeing is absurdly powerful!

Also, the blue is way better than any other race for my friend's optimized, nasty wizard arcane archer eldritch knight with dervish dance and a high stealth, but I'm sure that's an isolated problem.

It seems that True Mind Switch and the Eternal Warrior ability and Psychofeedback are my only qualms with the system now. I can see why you all like it so much. It makes me wonder if Paizo might never make a book with psionics since DSP did a good job for the most part.

Thanks for refuting my arguments, Ashiel! Do you agree that Psychofeedback and Eternal Warrior and True Mind Switch are too powerful?

Temporal Acceleration plus Wilder huh? Well that would require them to be able to manifest 7th level powers, so that's 15th level minimum (see they can manifest 7th level powers at 14, but they cannot take Expanded Knowledge (Psychofeedback) until they hit 15th level). Even with a +30 to strength for 15 rounds, that would only be +15 to hit and +10 to hit and +15 to damage, which is comparable to a Paladin using Smite, except it inflicts a crapton of ability damage on themselves for using it, and requires them to expend a lot in the way of their power points (having to pop temporal and then pop psychofeedback).

Actually, it only requires them to be able to manifest 6th level powers. Psychofeedback is only a 5th level power. This can be done at a mere level 13. However, I forgot that it's limited by the manifester level. Nonetheless, any spell that can boost stats by such a large amount is very overpowered in my opinion, especially in epic levels when there's no penalty for it.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Exactly what makes Psychic Crush, a short-range, mind-affecting, +4 to the saving throw, which allows spell/power resistance, and is 5th level (the same level as stuff like baleful polymorph, and a level after the similar phantasmal killer in core)? It doesn't even kill them outright, is completely useless versus undead, constructs, and anyone with mind-blank or similar, and deals poor damage if they make the save.

Psychofeedback I can understand as a concern. The fact it's not mentioned as ability burn anymore makes it somewhat concerning, but even still I'm not sure it's really that amazing. It's an egoist power or a high level psychic warrior power. Likewise, it can be dispelled, and then you just inflicted craploads of ability damage on yourself for absolutely nothing.

Barred...

You must not have read Barred Mind very closely! It's SO SO SO SOOOO much better than Mind Blank that they're not even in the same league! Do you honestly think a psion should be able to give out something FAR stronger than the ninja's level 20 ability just because they can cast Barred Mind and have a scroll of greater invisibility? A single spell that stops an entire school of magic and makes invisibility horribly broken?

Phantasmal killer requires two saves instead of just one. The difference between killing them outright and reducing their hp to one is negligible in most scenarios. Spell resistance is irrelevant when you can take two feats and expend psionic focus to gain a +8 boost on your caster-level check.

I think that the first time that you see a wilder use Temporal Acceleration to cast Psychofeedback and then dump 30+ points into Str to kill the BBEG in a single round, you'll change your mind.

This kind of debate is exactly why I didn't want to post specifics here. I was hoping for a discussion about the future of psionics for Pathfinder, not a debate about things like if it's fair for a single power to grant immunity to an entire school of magic. If you still can't see how horribly broken my examples are, I don't think there's anything I can say that would convince you otherwise and I would like to refrain from continuing this debate, but personally, the brokenness of powers such as Barred Mind and Psychofeedback is painfully clear.

I can't put any faith in a book that would include such obviously overpowered powers.

Ninjas and Samurai's and gunslingers were published in the ultimate combat. I suspect, the first two character classes, and the katanas, and marital arts styles etc, were put in to help support their current adventure path, the Jade Regent. I suspect the Gunslingers and Guns were published to help support their next adventure path...one that is about Pirates.

Thanks for sharing your insight! I was not aware of this.

I really didn't want to derail this thread by explaining all the broken things in Psionics Unleashed, and still don't want to put much effort into compiling a list, but off the top of my head, Psychic Crush, Barren Mind, and Psychofeedback were all taken from elegant 3.5 powers and bastardized into horribly broken powers. In my opinion, Dreamscarred Press's book is so bad that simply using the 3.5 version of all the powers is far better than using their backwards "updates."

There's this post from 10 months ago.

Thanks!

Has anything newer been said?

I was wondering if Paizo has made an official statement as to whether or not they will release a book that incorporates psionics. I am aware of Psionics Unleashed, but I find it to be horribly unbalanced, and have much higher standards for Pathfinder. I'm amazed that we have ninjas and gunslingers and samurai but still no wilder.

That is probably too high. I believe its CMB and CMD are equal.

Also, grapples are kind of bad; trip and disarm are much better.

You don't think it even has the standard +10? That doesn't make much sense to me. I really hope Paizo answers this because I'm not sure how players are expected to just figure it out on their own!

Also, grapples are good when you can use them to pin flying creatures to keep them from flapping their wings and make them fall.

Note that Dervish Dance is NOT just weapon finesse. It adds Dex to DAMAGE as well, and only allows you to use one scimitar, rather than be able to dual-wield.

Telekinesis tells us how to determine the CMB in order to grapple someone (or use some other maneuver). What it doesn't tell us, however, is what the caster's effective CMD is in order to break free.

So, if I am a wizard using telekinesis to maintain a grapple on an enemy, what do they check against in order to break free?

My guess would be 10 + caster level + (casting ability modifier * 2). Is this correct?