Define "any class" please.
If you are talking about Pathfinder books from Paizo you will be fine. Just make sure they follow the rules for some of the newer stuff like Edilions and what not. Many classes can be strong and it really depends on the game style of the DM and group along with how varied the adventures are.
If you are talking about 3PP Pathfinder stuff there is some good stuff out there... but also some things that are just off the charts balance wise.
Finally if you are talking about all the older 3.5 or even 3.0 stuff. There are a great many things that can be done by mixing the right combination of classes.
I actually think Mystic Theurge is too powerful, but that is in the Core Rulebook.
A wizard (or Sorcerer) 5, cleric (or Oracle) 5, mystic theurge 10 gets: 8th level wizard/sorcerer spells, AND 8th level cleric/oracle spells, AND can trade spell slots between the classes up to 5th level spells, AND can cast a spell from each class using only 1 action. Wow.
except it's considered one of the worst prc In the game. by the time you can cast fireball the single class wizard or cleric are killing people outright.
except it's considered one of the worst prc In the game. by the time you can cast fireball the single class wizard or cleric are killing people outright.
Not by me. If you start out as Sorcerer 3, Oracle 3, Mystic Theurge 1, you are only 1 spell level behind your single-class counterparts, and get twice as many spells per day. In addition, being able to trade spell slots between the classes lets plan for a wider range of possibilities. Finally, if you wanted access to 9th level Wizard spells you could still get them with a Wizard 7, Cleric 3, Mystic Theurge 10.
Also, I actually think Fireball is WAAAAY overrated. Ranged Touch attack spells are the way to go, IMO. No save, Evasion doesn't work against them, and even as a single-class caster, your BAB advances faster than the Touch AC of 99.99% of the monsters in the Bestiary and Bestiary 2, and 99.99% of the NPCs you will face.
I smell a troll in this thread.
At least I hope so, because if not, whooboy...
I smell a troll in this thread.
At least I hope so, because if not, whooboy...
I don't know who you are referring to, me or mojorat, but if its me, at least I commenting on the thread's topic, instead of ignoring it completely and going off topic by flaming someone.
Wait, isn't that what a troll does?
I think you smelled yourself.
except it's considered one of the worst prc In the game. by the time you can cast fireball the single class wizard or cleric are killing people outright.Not by me. If you start out as Sorcerer 3, Oracle 3, Mystic Theurge 1, you are only 1 spell level behind your single-class counterparts, and get twice as many spells per day. In addition, being able to trade spell slots between the classes lets plan for a wider range of possibilities. Finally, if you wanted access to 9th level Wizard spells you could still get them with a Wizard 7, Cleric 3, Mystic Theurge 10.
Also, I actually think Fireball is WAAAAY overrated. Ranged Touch attack spells are the way to go, IMO. No save, Evasion doesn't work against them, and even as a single-class caster, your BAB advances faster than the Touch AC of 99.99% of the monsters in the Bestiary and Bestiary 2, and 99.99% of the NPCs you will face.
The problem is, you are taking level 20 as a benchmark. That is when the game is supposed to end and most groups don't even reach that level.
So, sure, the Mystic Theurge is really good at the highest levels... but to get there you must suffer through 15+ levels of sucking, compared to the rest of the group. And if you are playing an AP, those first 15 levels may be the only ones you are getting to play, anyway.
If you start out as Sorcerer 3, Oracle 3, Mystic Theurge 1, you are only 1 spell level behind your single-class counterparts, and get twice as many spells per day. In addition, being able to trade spell slots between the classes lets plan for a wider range of possibilities.
That's 7th level, not 20th. You even quoted that section of my post, so you must have seen it.
Yes, I mentioned 20th level. I didn't realize that wasn't allowed, and didn't think it would dominate this thread, but it is hardly the cornerstone of my entire opinion about the class. I actually think that the relative power level of the Mystic Theurge peaks at 16th level, not 20th, when the character has maxed out their Mystic Theurge levels. I agree that levels 4-6 you will be underpowered (when you start to multi-class), but that's only 3 levels. Things get better at level 7 (your first level of Mystic Theurge) and you begin to gain power more rapidly than single class characters. No ammount of trolling is likely to change my opinion that I think the class is overpowered.
Instead of slamming me for my OPINION, which was ASKED FOR BY THE OP, why not offer your own suggestion as to which class or combination you think is overpowered?
That's 3 people (or one person with 3 accounts) that completely ignored the OP's question and offered nothing constructive. Let's get back to the topic.
That's 3 people (or one person with 3 accounts) that completely ignored the OP's question and offered nothing constructive. Let's get back to the topic.
Translation: I can't win against this argument, so, uh, let's stop argueing and let's get back on topic.
Oh, well. On topic, then:
I think the new "3/4 BAB, 6 levels of spellcasting" classes from the APG are way too good. I can't really talk about the Magus yet, as I haven't seen it in action ( although I probably shortly will in my upcoming Jade Regent campaign ), but from my own analysis and what I have seen in play, the Inquisitor, Alchemist and Summoner all have a big case of ability overload... they get a lot of toys which also are more interesting than other classes abilities throughout their career. The DPR output in single target damage also is through the roof in case of the Inquisitor and Alchemist after level five.
Translation: I can't win against this argument, so, uh, let's stop argueing and let's get back on topic.
No one can win an argument based on opinion. It's like arguing the best actor to play James Bond, or the best football team in the history of the NFL. I'm not even trying to argue. My credibility was attacked by someone calling me a troll, when in fact I was the only one until your last post that was commenting on the topic.
If I was trying to argue, I would state why I think your opinion is wrong. But I'm not going to do that. It's your OPINION, and you are entitled to it.
One last thing about the Mystic Theurge. All the extra spells mean that they don't suffer from the 15 minute work day that some spellcasters suffer from. They can also cast more spells before having to dip into their 1st and 2nd level spells, which can be almost ineffective at higher CR levels.
One last thing about the Mystic Theurge. All the extra spells mean that they don't suffer from the 15 minute work day that some spellcasters suffer from. They can cast more spells before having to dip into their 1st and 2nd level spells.
Which is useless if the rest of group runs of fumes at this time. This ain't a solo game.
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You can't be an oracle3, sorcerer3, mystic theurge 1. You need 2nd level spells to qualify, so you'd have to be at least oracle 4 and sorcerer 4.
You'll gain new spell levels five levels after a witch would gain them.
There are some ways to make it work, but it's in no way overpowered. Not compared to any pure full caster.
If you start out as Sorcerer 3, Oracle 3, Mystic Theurge 1, you are
. . . in gross violation of the rules and simultaneously not very good at dealing with 7th-level encounters at the same time.
Congratulations on ignoring the topic of the thread and turning this into yet another Mystic Theurge debate! You win a prize! *Golfclap*
On topic:
As long as you stick to pathfinder stuff and not third party I think everything more or less balances with each other. Of course casters are always more powerful than non-casters, but that's simply the nature of the beast. When one can bend the laws of the universe they'll often look better than the guy who can swing a sword really well. However the martial classes are necessary (in my opinion) for a successful adventuring party. However, even with all the power at their fingertips a poorly played caster is a dead caster, just like any other character.
My 2C.
If you start out as Sorcerer 3, Oracle 3, Mystic Theurge 1, you are. . . in gross violation of the rules and simultaneously not very good at dealing with 7th-level encounters at the same time.
Did I wander under a bridge or something? I've been posting on these boards for years and I've never been mobbed like this before. Where did you all come from? So you don't agree with me. I don't agree with you either, and can't fathom how anyone could seriously consider mystic theurge "the worst prc in the game." Offer something constructive about the topic instead of bashing someone else for their opinion.
For the record, this is the first "mystic theurge debate" I've seen (and wasn't even intended on being about MT), but that is not suprising considering the size of these boards. Oh, I'm sure there have been debates, people will debate anything, but they can't be all that common if this is the first one I've seen. I can think of litterally dozens of debates that pop up on these boards with more regularity than an old man on metamucil.
I'll also state AGAIN that this was just my OPINION, which was ASKED FOR BY THE OP, who also recognized that this was "somewhat subjective".
You are right about one thing, that should have read Wizard 3, Cleric 3, Mystic Theurge 1, making it a legal build. The point still stands, 7th level is where the 3 levels of bad end, and it starts to get good.
I WAS interested in what other people thought were overpowered combinations, but this seems to have been threadjacked by people with no other interest than to criticize someone else. I'll leave you now to flame the next guy that doesn't believe the exact same thing you do. There is obviously no interest in offering something constructive to the discussion.
Jason, it's not opinion if it's backed up by really solid math and play reports. Do a little research on the Theurge. I'm sure a search of the boards will come up with a whole lot of good stuff. Drop it for now, read up a little, and if still not convinced, make a new thread and argue your point with more to back it up.
OP, off the top of my head I can't think of anything truly overpowered. Pathfinder's done a pretty good job of avoiding big broken builds so far.
As for "powerful if optimized correctly", or a few unclosed loopholes that give quite an edge, here's a few:
Arcane Bond + Gunsmithing = Start with 4,000+ GP item for free.
Two Weapon Fighting + Two Handed weapon and Armor Spikes = Two weapon attacks with two handed damage.
Alchemist + Master Alchemist feat + downtime = Completely absurd amounts of alchemist fire.
Trapmaking + Cure Light Wounds = A trap that casts CLW on whatever touches it, resets every round. Unlimited healing.
Trapmaking + Animate Dead + Cause Light Wounds = Burst damage AoE traps built into zombles, resets every round, movement triggered (but inside a moving thing so it just goes off). Undead gets huge healing. Living things get bombarded with negative energy.
Any Template that a PC can add to themselves through the investment of their own resources (lich, lycenthrope) = huge power boost. Potential game breaker unless other players get similar power boost.
Titan Mauler + Big Reach Weapon + Improved Trip + Combat Patrol + Combat Reflexes = Bad guys get knocked over, everywhere, all day.
In the last few years, we only banned one book, a third party source called Mega-Feats. Not that monk is overpowered, but I'm surprised how many feats have Improved Unarmed Strike as a requirement.
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Summoner can be over powered, particularly if an eidolon is built incorrectly. Make sure you make your summoner players give you an easily understood breakdown of their eidolon, and pay particular attention to some of the evolution restrictions (mostly show up on 3 and 4 point evolutions).
Master Summoner can also be troublesome to deal with.
+1.
The Summoner, as written, is fine. HOWEVER, it is very easy to misinterpret the rules as they pertain to summoners and eidolons, and that can lead easily to overpowered builds that, if you don't use a fine-toothed comb to go through, you won't immediately see why it's incorrect.
A Synthesist with dumped physical stats can also be an issue.
A Synthesist with dumped physical stats can also be an issue.
I've got one of these in an upcoming game. Any advice on dealing with it? I worry about being too restrictive so eased up on my sheer hatred of summoners because he has a damn good character in mind... But anyway to minimize the headaches and counteract him would be appreciated.
A Synthesist with dumped physical stats can also be an issue.I've got one of these in an upcoming game. Any advice on dealing with it? I worry about being too restrictive so eased up on my sheer hatred of summoners because he has a damn good character in mind... But anyway to minimize the headaches and counteract him would be appreciated.
My solution may have created itself as the player I have playing one of those in a PbP game has disappeared (though I'd still like him back, the character has a freakin' legal +20 bonus in Diplomacy at first level!
One piece of advice: don't make my mistake and allow said synthesist with dumped physical stats to also get the penalties and bonuses for old age! I don't know what I was thinking.
That being said, if this character ever gets ambushed without his eidolon fused...
A Synthesist with dumped physical stats can also be an issue.I've got one of these in an upcoming game. Any advice on dealing with it? I worry about being too restrictive so eased up on my sheer hatred of summoners because he has a damn good character in mind... But anyway to minimize the headaches and counteract him would be appreciated.My solution may have created itself as the player I have playing one of those in a PbP game has disappeared (though I'd still like him back, the character has a freakin' legal +20 bonus in Diplomacy at first level!
One piece of advice: don't make my mistake and allow said synthesist with dumped physical stats to also get the penalties and bonuses for old age! I don't know what I was thinking.
That being said, if this character ever gets ambushed without his eidolon fused...
Hmm... I'll just inform him that if he's completely outshining the others he'll have to be ajusted. Theres nothing wrong with a powerful PC so long as he isnt ruinign the others' fun.
Thanks for the advice. I'm sure there'll be plenty of ambushes so it will be good to keep my PC on his toes.
The DMPC is usually pretty O to the P as they say.
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A Synthesist with dumped physical stats can also be an issue.I've got one of these in an upcoming game. Any advice on dealing with it? I worry about being too restrictive so eased up on my sheer hatred of summoners because he has a damn good character in mind... But anyway to minimize the headaches and counteract him would be appreciated.
Trick as someone playing a Synthesist Summoner, hit them for enough damage in one round so the Eidolon drops. I got charged at the begining of combat. But once my 'eidolon suit' dropped I went from party fighter to support caster, and I couldn't transfer enough HP to keep it up.
I think the big stuff you have to worry about is people overlooking some of the balancing aspects of the rules. There are some incredibly powerful builds, but they do have counters.
Things to look out for:
2-handed fighters with the right chain of feats can be made ridiculously strong using the APG and the ultimate combat books. We had a level 6 fighter, that, no joke, did 2d6+20 something per attack.
Weapon spec, overhead chop, power attack, furious focus, and 20 str, weapon training... adds up
Of course, totally screwed if grappled, incorporeal component, and kills an ally if someone compels him.
Summoners are in a similar boat. Retarded powerful, but if you mind control the summoner you get control of the eidolon too.
Rays are very powerful, but are subject to that -4 penalty when shooting into melee combat with allies if you don't have precise shot. People tend to overlook that.
A lot of feats, particularly combat ones, require making an attack as a standard action (ie cleave, vital strike, focused shot, etc). Therefore, cannot be used together with other standard action feats.
You get one swift action around. A lot of the new stuff has their coolness in swift actions, that are balanced by only letting you do one a round. Example, all the monk's ki point nonsense. So while a monk can get an extra attack, leap dozens of feet, and become nearly untouchable, he can't do it all at once.
Armor Check. It applies.
All summon spells take a round to go off.
Detect magic does not work like night vision goggles.