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Having recently started GMing a game which includes a Halfling Cavalier (with a medium mount for ease-of-access), I've been given cause to examine the rules surrounding Mounted Combat (in the Combat chapter, the Ride skill, the Handle Animal skill, and the Cavalier class).
The Ride skill includes the following, somewhat cryptic, entry:
Stay in Saddle: (DC 5) You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action.
Aside from the Unseat feat, which is so narrowly applicable that it fails entirely to provide any insight into the general question, there does not seem to be any method explicitly provided for unseating a rider.
Granted, the Ride skill entry above seems to imply that each and every time that a rider is damaged, the rider must make a Ride check (DC 5) or fail to stay in the saddle. However, inasmuch as the attacks are doing damage, it seems reasonable to me to think that these attacks are *not* executed with the *primary* goal of unseating a rider. This makes a fair amount of sense to me, since untrained riders should be relatively easy to unseat, whereas trained riders should not have any difficulty staying in the saddle (and in fact, if Ride is a class skill with one rank and the rider lacks a negative Dexterity modifier, the rider will never be unseated as the result of HP damage).
This, however, brings me to the flip side of the Ride skill entry: for a rider with a minimum +4 to Ride checks, aside from the Unseat feat, there does not seem to be any method of unseating them provided in RAW. Is this accurate, or have I overlooked something?
EDIT: The new Combat Maneuvers Drag and Reposition in the APG would seem to cover different methods of producing an effect that would result in the unseating of a mounted target, but nothing is mentioned in their entries or the errata for the APG to indicate any modifiers to the CMB check or CMD of the target of such a check in the event that the target is mounted. Is this correct, or are there modifiers to Drag and/or Reposition based on the target of the maneuver being mounted?
Well, I suppose grappling the rider might work. Ready an action to initiate a grapple when they close, hope you get it right :) Probably easier if several people grapple the mount (even if all they do is encumber the mount until it's slowed down due to their weight, this might help). Also, I'd probably rule that if the rider is hit with a lance or other suitable weapon during a charge attack (e.g. during a joust), the DC to stay mounted is increased to the damage dealt.
In 4e knocking a rider prone forces them off their mount. I don't think there's any mechanic like that in 3.5/PFRPG. Straight up killing the mount usually works.
Sure, but that takes time, and some of the opponents my party is likely to face will be more interested in unseating the halfling quickly than in wasting time trying to kill his mount.
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Bull Rush.
<nod> That goes along with Drag and Reposition as movement inducing Combat Maneuvers.
Are any modifiers listed that specifically pertain to the target of such a maneuver (any maneuver, really) being mounted?
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Bull Rush.<nod> That goes along with Drag and Reposition as movement inducing Combat Maneuvers.
Are any modifiers listed that specifically pertain to the target of such a maneuver (any maneuver, really) being mounted?
This is an interesting question, as it happens, I also have a halfling cavalier in my group and this will assuredly come up. The only thing I can come up with that is even remotely RAW, is to use either a bull rush or drag maneuver with the express purpose of dismounting. In either case it is a combat maneuver and as such merits a CMB vs CMD check. Depending on the technique used, if a character has the improved version of either bull rush or drag, then they can apply its bonus to the dismount attempt.
As far as modifiers go, if the rider is secure in the saddle, I might be inclined to grant him a +5 to his CMD to resist being dismounted. If he is strapped in, it is reasonable to rule that the attempt to dismount is automatically resisted. Of course, there really is nothing by RAW that I can find that applies to this situation.
I hope this helps :)
I'd say if you bull rush or trip the mount, then the rider falls off as well.
I'm not sure you can directly bull rush the rider off the mount, and tripping shouldn't work either.
Having recently started GMing a game which includes a Halfling Cavalier (with a medium mount for ease-of-access), I've been given cause to examine the rules surrounding Mounted Combat (in the Combat chapter, the Ride skill, the Handle Animal skill, and the Cavalier class).
The Ride skill includes the following, somewhat cryptic, entry:
Stay in Saddle: (DC 5) You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action.Aside from the Unseat feat, which is so narrowly applicable that it fails entirely to provide any insight into the general question, there does not seem to be any method explicitly provided for unseating a rider.
Granted, the Ride skill entry above seems to imply that each and every time that a rider is damaged, the rider must make a Ride check (DC 5) or fail to stay in the saddle. However, inasmuch as the attacks are doing damage, it seems reasonable to me to think that these attacks are *not* executed with the *primary* goal of unseating a rider. This makes a fair amount of sense to me, since untrained riders should be relatively easy to unseat, whereas trained riders should not have any difficulty staying in the saddle (and in fact, if Ride is a class skill with one rank and the rider lacks a negative Dexterity modifier, the rider will never be unseated as the result of HP damage).
This, however, brings me to the flip side of the Ride skill entry: for a rider with a minimum +4 to Ride checks, aside from the Unseat feat, there does not seem to be any method of unseating them provided in RAW. Is this accurate, or have I overlooked something?
EDIT: The new Combat Maneuvers Drag and Reposition in the APG would seem to cover different methods of producing an effect that would result in the unseating of a mounted target, but nothing is mentioned in their entries or the errata for the APG to indicate any modifiers to the CMB check or CMD of the target of such a check in...
Pup Shape or Anthropomorphic Animal. Pup Shape is straight up better. The only cavalry that stays mounted with that spell are Diminuitive or smaller. I'm not that worried about something the size of a cat wielding a lance.
Yea, combat manuvers should do the trick, mounts an riders not being welded as one creature despite occupying the same space. Anything that moves the rider out of the mount space or knocks them to the ground would dismount them.
Grapple - first round establish the hold. If the rider doesn't break free then if the mount moves he's dismounted (since he stays in his square while his mount moves away). If the grappler maintains the hold, they can use the option to move the opponent to move the rider away from the mount to unhorse him.
Bullrush - Bullrush would actually NOT work - since you'd have to bull rush BOTH the rider and mount, and they'd move together (read in the rule all the stuff about what happens if you bullrush someone into someone else. Since mount and rider share space, all that stuff applies). BUT the reposition/drag stuff from the APG is more the idea.
Magic always has an answer too. Command, "Fall", for example.
Anything that knocks the rider unconsious gives them a chance to fall off the mount. The rule specifies the 'unconcious' condition, but I think RAI is any condition that makes the rider helpess so as to be reasonably unable to keep themselves on the horse under their own power.
Non-tiny things also need to be helpless to share a space with something within a couple sizes of it (when not mounted on it), so the rider would also be bumped to an adjacent legal space if knocked off.
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I'm running a module wherein Trolls figure heavily. I was thinking of having the trolls try push and drag maneuvers to the cavalier.
As far as the unseat bit mentioned in the ride skill, would it be viable to have the cavalier make a ride check versus DC (5+Damage received) when attacked by a large or larger creature to represent the force of the blow, etc?
Even if my level 5 cavalier makes 100% of those checks, the act of making them will make him nervous about fighting larger things, at least that's my thought, and provide for him a sense of danger.
I think the Unseat Feat gives a lot of information on how to remove a character from their mount, namely the Bull Rush. As also already stated the Ride skill has infomation as well "Stay in Saddle (DC5): You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action."
So do damage against an inexperienced or heavily armoured opponent (Armour checks apply, as well as saddle type) or hit them with a repositioning combat maneuver.
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I think the Unseat Feat gives a lot of information on how to remove a character from their mount, namely the Bull Rush. As also already stated the Ride skill has infomation as well "Stay in Saddle (DC5): You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action."
So do damage against an inexperienced or heavily armoured opponent (Armour checks apply, as well as saddle type) or hit them with a repositioning combat maneuver.
My question about the unseat feat is simply would a troll or dragon or giant have to invest feats to be able to unseat a rider? wouldn't the force of their attack, combined with being eye level or higher, aid in that? Why I ask is because I tend to agree with the OP - without taking that feat it otherwise becomes impossible to unseat a Cavalier or Paladin, or other class for whom ride is a class skill. At level one, ACP notwithstanding, they succeed on a 1. Granted, ACP can change that, but by level 5 or 6, ranks have generally caught up with ACP, making the check an auto succeed again.
Check out the monster feat Awesome Blow. That's the kind of effect you're looking for, there I think.
Normal blows don't have any special pushback effects of anything. The basic rule is creatures don't suffer any additional adverse effects from simple hit point damage, regardless of how much or what from (c.f the massive damage rule).
Getting into deep HP theory: HPs also represent the ability to minimise the impact of blows, even to the point that what would be an instant death hit for a character with 6hps is barely a graze that doesn't even leave a mark for a character with 60 hit points.
So imagining those two mounted characters facing trolls, the trolls doing the same 10 points of damage to each rider, the 6hp rider IS knocked unconsious and dying, thus with the chance to be knocked off the horse. But the 60hp rider, being only reduced to 50hps, so still fully functioning, actually evaded the worst of the hit - suffering the comparative effect of what would have been only a 1hp hit to the 6hp rider.
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Yea, combat manuvers should do the trick, mounts an riders not being welded as one creature despite occupying the same space. Anything that moves the rider out of the mount space or knocks them to the ground would dismount them.
Grapple - first round establish the hold. If the rider doesn't break free then if the mount moves he's dismounted (since he stays in his square while his mount moves away). If the grappler maintains the hold, they can use the option to move the opponent to move the rider away from the mount to unhorse him.
Bullrush - Bullrush would actually NOT work - since you'd have to bull rush BOTH the rider and mount, and they'd move together (read in the rule all the stuff about what happens if you bullrush someone into someone else. Since mount and rider share space, all that stuff applies). BUT the reposition/drag stuff from the APG is more the idea.
Magic always has an answer too. Command, "Fall", for example.
Anything that knocks the rider unconsious gives them a chance to fall off the mount. The rule specifies the 'unconcious' condition, but I think RAI is any condition that makes the rider helpess so as to be reasonably unable to keep themselves on the horse under their own power.
Non-tiny things also need to be helpless to share a space with something within a couple sizes of it (when not mounted on it), so the rider would also be bumped to an adjacent legal space if knocked off.
Haven't you seen movies/shows where the rider is taken down by a flying tackle, or the attacker jumps up, grabs a shoulder and drags the rider to the ground? The first is an example of a bull rush, in such a scenario, you don't have to do the same to the mount. It specifically targets the rider.
The second, is an example of either a drag maneuver or a successful grapple. I'd probably go with drag, as a grapple takes a couple rounds to fully execute.
All in all, dismounting a rider can conceivably take the form of a bull rush, drag, reposition, or even a trip (when the mount is the target). In any case, it still boils down to a CMB vs CMD check.
Yea, I know what you're talking about, but by RAW, the manuvers that model pushing/grabbing someone off their horse like that would be those other manuvers. Possibly even Overrun (where you can make the guy fall to the ground if you roll high enough).
Bull rush is where the guy pushes horse, rider, the guy behind the horse and rider, etc. all back. Think the big phalanx push scene from 300. Check the rule, it gives examples explaining.
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Anything that moves the rider but not the mount will dismount him. That includes Bull Rush (which still targets a single enemy, not a whole square - although if you're trying to Bull Rush the guy straight down, for some strange reason, you'd need to Bull Rush the mount too, but not otherwise: the mount generally isn't behind the rider, but under him).
The glaive-guisarme from the Adventurer's Armory (page 3) gives a -2 penalty on the target's Ride check to remain mounted, although that's unlikely to phase a Cavalier on his own mount (what with the whole not taking armour check penalties to Ride rolls and all...).
Ok I see how bull rush can work, but it's from this line, not the angle of attack:
You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so.
See, the problem I saw with it was this rule:
If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature.
A mount occupies the same space as the rider, you can't choose to enter the rider's square but not the mounts. Since the mount would block, it'd get in the way of the rush.
BUT, I forgot it's optional to move with the rushee. So yea, if you opted to stay on one side of the mount, you could push the rider off, since the rider was not being pushed into a blocked square, and the attacker wouldn't have to enter a blocked square. Even with large mounts, which take up more squares, the rider is presumed to be in all of those same squares, I believe. So even then, if you stayed on one side of the 4 square horse, you would push one side of the horse and the rider would pop out the other. I think even if you came at it from the top it's still work. The rider would be blocked by the ground, but, I think, he'd still be dismounted, then rusher and rushee would both pop out next to the horse as a function of the ending move in an illegal space rules.
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Right, Bullrush works just fine, and there is nothing in RAW giving a bonus to resist it (for mounted characters).
Honestly the normal military saddles SHOULD apply the same +2 bonus to CMD vs. Bullrush/Pull/Push Maneuvers which they give vs. the Unseat via Damage check. I´m hitting the FAQ button, please feel free to also do so.
Low-trained Riders can also be knocked off via normal damage...
In that case, I believe they would remain in ONE of the mount´s squares (no longer being mounted, they now occupy space normally), probably at ground level in most situations, which I would probably roll at random.
I think the Unseat Feat gives a lot of information on how to remove a character from their mount, namely the Bull Rush. As also already stated the Ride skill has infomation as well "Stay in Saddle (DC5): You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action."
So do damage against an inexperienced or heavily armoured opponent (Armour checks apply, as well as saddle type) or hit them with a repositioning combat maneuver.
I agree that Unseat gives a lot of information on how to remove a mounted character from his or her mount IF the attacker is (a) mounted themselves, (b) possessed of, and able to, wield a lance, (c) able to charge, while mounted, with that lance, and (d) is actually possessed of the feats Power Attack, Mounted Combat, and Improved Bull Rush.
In other words, a lot of information about how a ludicrously tiny subset of NPCs/Monsters can forcibly dismount a mounted character. (Granted, there are *implications* that are, of course, subject to rule 0, but absent GM fiat Unseat is not a broadly-applicable source of RAW methodology to determine how a rider might be unseated.)
Honestly the normal military saddles SHOULD apply the same +2 bonus to CMD vs. Bullrush/Pull/Push Maneuvers which they give vs. the Unseat via Damage check. I´m hitting the FAQ button, please feel free to also do so.
Low-trained Riders can also be knocked off via normal damage...
In that case, I believe they would remain in ONE of the mount´s squares (no longer being mounted, they now occupy space normally), probably at ground level in most situations, which I would probably roll at random.
+1 on the FAQ; I concur that failing a Ride check when taking damage would land the character in a (randomly determined) square at ground level. Since the skill (unlike the Unseat feat) neglects to specify *if* the fallen character is prone or not, either the character would land, prone, in a square occupied by the mount, or would wind up not prone in an adjacent square. I feel that, especially following the introduction of a class designed to be mounted, this should also be clarified.
As far as I can tell, aside from magic effects, a non-pushing Bull Rush, a Drag, or a Reposition combat maneuver would be the only *proactive* option to unseat a rider, and would not, RAW, suffer from any particular penalty to CMB as a result of the target of the maneuver being mounted. Nor would the mounted target of such a maneuver gain a bonus of any sort to CMD as a result of being mounted.
Thanks for all the insights!
A- Bull Rush works fine
B- There is precedent for it. In Chapter 5 of Kingmaker there is a jousting tournament where the aim is to unseat the other rider- using Bull Rush.
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Honestly, when you think about it, a mounted opponent was terrifying. Until someone made some kind of attempt to actively pull them off or knock them off their horse, a cavalier would remain mounted and deal terrible damage and enjoy the benefit of exceptional speed.
In essence the only real way to unseat a mounted opponent is with some kind of Combat Maneuver. That or take out the mount.
Ultimate Combat introduces the optional rules of Called Shots. I would consider allowing a Called Shot against a mount's legs to possibly trip it, and if so the rider would need to make one amazing ride check (not talking a lowly DC 5 here!). Even if the rider remained mounted, the mount is prone (therefore the rider is prone- and possibly trapped by the mount and unable to make his own movement without an Escape Artist check). heck I might require a Ride check to get OFF a falling mount if it went down like that. lol But these are optional rules, subject to each and every GMs whims and thoughts on the matter.
Now, what I want to know is, what kind of check does a Dragon make when it comes flying in and snatches a rider off its mount for a snack later on? Would that be an Overrun, Fly-By, or what?
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+1A- Bull Rush works fine
B- There is precedent for it. In Chapter 5 of Kingmaker there is a jousting tournament where the aim is to unseat the other rider- using Bull Rush.
Meh, some monsters are not bright enough to use bull rush. Apart from also using the above actions,just go with any critical hit can dismount you (if you don't have Stay in the Saddle), equal to DC 10 + damage delt Reflex or Ride check. I mean, if someone hits you with a lance with the horse momentum behind it, you're more likely to fly out of your morings than if you got hit with a empty flagon....if you get clothslined by a troll as you go galloping down the path, you probably ought to be knocked of your horse.
Ah, tripped mount = dismounted rider.
Though it makes sense, at first I didn't see the basis for this, but then I re-read the Mounted Combat rules and realized that the following text covers it:
If Your Mount Falls in Battle
If your mount falls, you have to succeed on a DC 15 Ride check to make a soft fall and take no damage. If the check fails, you take 1d6 points of damage.
I had been reading "Falls in Battle" as only "is slain" when in reality a number of additional methods for making the mount fall in battle exist, such as trip. I would assume that stumbling (or being pushed) over a cliff would also come under this heading.
(What if the mount has levels in Paladin and willfully commits an evil act? XD)
Thanks again!
Ultimate Combat introduces the optional rules of Called Shots. I would consider allowing a Called Shot against a mount's legs to possibly trip it, and if so the rider would need to make one amazing ride check (not talking a lowly DC 5 here!)...
Or just TRIP the Mount? 8-)
Yup, Doskius, the rules already cover just great what happens when your mount falls (tripped).
Also, they cover whether or not you are prone after being Bullrushed off your Mount:
Soft Fall: You negate damage when you fall off a mount. If you fail the Ride check, you take 1d6 points of damage and are prone. This usage does not take an action.
If somebody has Featherfall (so they don´t really ´fall´ and take damage) or are riding a Mount underwater, they wouldn´t ´fall´ and take damage, and thus wouldn´t end up Prone, regardless of Ride check.
Ultimate Combat introduces the optional rules of Called Shots. I would consider allowing a Called Shot against a mount's legs to possibly trip it, and if so the rider would need to make one amazing ride check (not talking a lowly DC 5 here!)...Or just TRIP the Mount? 8-)
Yup, Doskius, the rules already cover just great what happens when your mount falls (tripped).
Also, they cover whether or not you are prone after being Bullrushed off your Mount:
Soft Fall: You negate damage when you fall off a mount. If you fail the Ride check, you take 1d6 points of damage and are prone. This usage does not take an action.If somebody has Featherfall (so they don´t really ´fall´ and take damage) or are riding a Mount underwater, they wouldn´t ´fall´ and take damage, and thus wouldn´t end up Prone, regardless of Ride check.
Then I think that all the bases are covered. Except of course for the recognition that being knocked off of a *flying* mount in the absence of any mechanism or magic to slow one's fall could, if the mount was flying high enough, result in a greater amount of damage wholly unavoidable via a Ride check. Of course, that's implied in the initial qualifying remarks at the beginning of the Mounted Combat section.
Thanks again!
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An enlarged trip build can trip horses, its just a tad harder. I had a reach trip build battle oracle enlarged last game session tripping my parties horses, which made the character make a ride check to avoid getting pinned under the prone horse. The thing I forgot is that the horse instinctively would get up again and provoke...