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A lot of players tend to steer clear of using whips, because they do puny damage, and non-lethal damage at that. But I think there is a lot of potential in the whip as a combat weapon, especially given its 15' reach. They can be used very effectively to trip or disarm opponents without provoking AoO's, due to the reach. I am also thinking about its possible application as a limited-duration grapple weapon (taking an opponent out of combat for one round, though it would be difficult to maintain beyond one round without some kind of physical modification to the whip).
I'm also thinking about custom-made whips - instead of a standard 15' whip, a 10' whip with 5' attachments, such as a cat o' nine tails (lethal damage), or a small grappling hook (prolonged grapple, unhorse a rider, etc), and so on. This might be a masterwork-only weapon, though.
Thoughts?
I agree completely, and apparently so did Paizo...
When you get a chance, read Ultimate Combat. There is much whip goodness in there that do much of what you describe and more. :)
Personally, I'm planning on making a Bard Archeologist that uses a whip to great effect. Perhaps I'll name him Dr. Jones. ;)
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I agree completely, and apparently so did Paizo...
When you get a chance, read Ultimate Combat. There is much whip goodness in there that do much of what you describe and more. :)
Personally, I'm planning on making a Bard Archeologist that uses a whip to great effect. Perhaps I'll name him Dr. Jones. ;)
Ah, I haven't seen the revised edition yet, only the old play tests.
The scorpion whip is also something that already existed that you might be interested in.
Whip, Scorpion
One-handed Exotic Melee Weapon
1d4 x2 dmg
This whip has a series of razorsharp blades and fangs inset along its tip.
Description: A scorpion whip deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip.
Weapon Feature(s): disarm, reach, trip
Source Adventurer's Armory, Legacy of Fire Player's Guide
Strangely enough, it's ALSO in Ultimate Combat as a 'Gladiator' weapon.
Same name and description, except it's listed as a light one-handed melee weapon, gained the 'performance' property but lost the disarm, reach and trip properties.
This has to be a crazy typo, as it has been in two other paizo products with other stats, and passed the recent Adventurer's Armory Errata without being nerfed into uselessness (sadly certain other weapons did not *cough*brass knuckles*cough)
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There are a few very excellent feats in UC that include whips doing lethal damage and not provoking AoOs, threatening 10ft minimum around you, and being able to grapple with whips.
I kind of want to make a half-orc (beastmaster trait) fighter who uses a whip in one hand and an axe/sword in the other, although with these feats, I don't think the other melee weapon is even necessary.
There are a few very excellent feats in UC that include whips doing lethal damage and not provoking AoOs, threatening 10ft minimum around you, and being able to grapple with whips.
I kind of want to make a half-orc (beastmaster trait) fighter who uses a whip in one hand and an axe/sword in the other, although with these feats, I don't think the other melee weapon is even necessary.
Heh, I had the same idea for a Half-Orc gladiator type (using the new Gladiator archetype and performance combat rules).
Another weapon would be great for TWF... heck, even another whip!
Imagine TWFing out to 15 feet with 10 foot threatening reach and all the fun maneuvers you could throw in.
Add these to the list
Prehensile Whip from the Adventurer's Armory
Serpent Lash from the Rival Guide
Fury's Snare from The Cheliax Companion Book
Fury's Fall from the same will be good as well.
My belief is that A whip and Shield is the best combination. This way you can shield slam enemies that get too close. The whip mastery line only protects you while you are making AoO's. On your turn you're going to provoke with that whip.
A whip with the proper feats is quite good for flanking and tripping, a magus can use it to channel touch spells at range, also animate rope spells can be fun to use with a whip.
Bards get exotic weapon proficiency for free with whip, there might be a few archetypes benefiting from it quite a bit, rogues and ninjas could enjoy reach sneak attacks
My belief is that A whip and Shield is the best combination. This way you can shield slam enemies that get too close. The whip mastery line only protects you while you are making AoO's. On your turn you're going to provoke with that whip.
Actually, the very first Whip Mastery feat prevents AoO's when attacking.....
Whip Mastery (Combat)
Your superior expertise with this weapon does not provoke
attacks of opportunity from your enemies.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (whip), base attack bonus +2.
Benefit: You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity
when attacking with a whip. You can deal lethal damage
with a whip, although you can still deal nonlethal
damage when you want. Further, you can deal damage
with a whip despite a creature’s armor bonus or natural
armor bonus.
Normal: Attacking with a whip provokes attacks of
opportunity as if you used a ranged weapon. A whip deals
no damage to a creature that has an armor bonus of +1 or
natural armor bonus of +3.
On a side note... I like how Paizo has actually brought back the dreaded Trip Monkey build. Yes, you have to invest in a couple more feats (which Pathfinder kindly gave everyone anyway) and have some patience... but with a whip, you can now pull it off.
The only downside is the 1d4 damage vs. the 2d4 of the old spike chain... but really, is 1d4 extra damage that big of a deal.
Plus, it's only a one handed weapon, so you can still wield something in your off-hand.
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The scorpion whip is also something that already existed that you might be interested in.
Whip, Scorpion
One-handed Exotic Melee Weapon
1d4 x2 dmgThis whip has a series of razorsharp blades and fangs inset along its tip.
Description: A scorpion whip deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip.
Weapon Feature(s): disarm, reach, trip
Source Adventurer's Armory, Legacy of Fire Player's Guide
Strangely enough, it's ALSO in Ultimate Combat as a 'Gladiator' weapon.
Same name and description, except it's listed as a light one-handed melee weapon, gained the 'performance' property but lost the disarm, reach and trip properties.This has to be a crazy typo, as it has been in two other paizo products with other stats, and passed the recent Adventurer's Armory Errata without being nerfed into uselessness (sadly certain other weapons did not *cough*brass knuckles*cough)
It's not a typo, and it says clearly that if you are proficient with a whip, you can use the scorpion whip as a whip, meaning that it has reach, disarm and trip properties. It specifically says it's lethal and 1d4, and those are the only differences.
With that said, and with the new feats from UC, I actually prefer the original whip, because I can choose to inflict lethal or non-lethal damage. The ability to inflict non-lethal damage (without a -4 penalty) is advantageous in numerous situations, especially when most adventuring groups are thought to made up of a collection of good and neutral adventurers. Capture missions and staged fights, as well as fights with an enemy I'm trying to win over, are all situations where I would eschew the scorpion whip. The difference of .5 damage a hit is not major, and if I'm building a whip fighter, I must not be too concerned with damage in the first place.
The scorpion whip is also something that already existed that you might be interested in.
Whip, Scorpion
One-handed Exotic Melee Weapon
1d4 x2 dmgThis whip has a series of razorsharp blades and fangs inset along its tip.
Description: A scorpion whip deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip.
Weapon Feature(s): disarm, reach, trip
Source Adventurer's Armory, Legacy of Fire Player's Guide
Strangely enough, it's ALSO in Ultimate Combat as a 'Gladiator' weapon.
Same name and description, except it's listed as a light one-handed melee weapon, gained the 'performance' property but lost the disarm, reach and trip properties.This has to be a crazy typo, as it has been in two other paizo products with other stats, and passed the recent Adventurer's Armory Errata without being nerfed into uselessness (sadly certain other weapons did not *cough*brass knuckles*cough)
It's not a typo, and it says clearly that if you are proficient with a whip, you can use the scorpion whip as a whip, meaning that it has reach, disarm and trip properties. It specifically says it's lethal and 1d4, and those are the only differences.
With that said, and with the new feats from UC, I actually prefer the original whip, because I can choose to inflict lethal or non-lethal damage. The ability to inflict non-lethal damage (without a -4 penalty) is advantageous in numerous situations, especially when most adventuring groups are thought to made up of a collection of good and neutral adventurers. Capture missions and staged fights, as well as fights with an enemy I'm trying to win over, are all situations where I would eschew the scorpion whip. The difference of .5 damage a hit is not major, and if I'm building a whip fighter, I must not be too concerned with damage in the first place.
I get what you are saying... but then why do both other write-ups of the scorpion whip specifically list disarm, reach, and trip?
It's more than a little confusing. Honestly, the line about using it as a whip (IMHO) always just meant you could use it if you already had exotic weapon proficiency in whip. MAYBE it might mean that any whip-based feats like weapon focus might carry over as well.Honestly, I'd prefer your interpretation to be true. If it is, I'd still use the Scorpion whip over the normal whip.
Not for damage, but for the ability to TWF with TWO scorpion whips with only a -2 penalty instead of -4. :)
(EDIT: Because the Scorpion Whip suddenly became a LIGHT weapon in UC, and the whip is still a normal one-handed weapon)
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I had considered making a Magus Bladebound variant. The Whip becoming the "Black Blade"- rules says any 1handed slashing weapon and the whip qualifies. With the feats available now with UC and these other whips I think this option is extremely workable.A whip with the proper feats is quite good for flanking and tripping, a magus can use it to channel touch spells at range, also animate rope spells can be fun to use with a whip.
Bards get exotic weapon proficiency for free with whip, there might be a few archetypes benefiting from it quite a bit, rogues and ninjas could enjoy reach sneak attacks
I don't know if that's intended, but it's awesome.
Whips are all about delivering pain. People flinch at the crack of a whip for a reason.
As each lash goes out maybe have an intimidate check, or a moral check on each strike.
In AD&D you have system shock, that could be used to stun an target that is struck, in Pathfinder you could use Fortitude DC saves or be stunned for 1d4 rounds.
Just some suggestions for not having to go with the conversion to lethal damage.
Whips are all about delivering pain. People flinch at the crack of a whip for a reason.
As each lash goes out maybe have an intimidate check, or a moral check on each strike.
In AD&D you have system shock, that could be used to stun an target that is struck, in Pathfinder you could use Fortitude DC saves or be stunned for 1d4 rounds.
Just some suggestions for not having to go with the conversion to lethal damage.
Hey, I like this idea!
One way you could simulate this with existing rules is to use the feat Cornugon Smash.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat
It allows you to use intimidate to demoralize as a free action whenever you hit someone while using power attack.
As for Whips, quick question. do they suffer from cover? (Like when an ally is between you and the opponent?) Also firing into melee dosen't count for them, does it?
I don't think cover or firing into melee rules would apply.
As per the whips description..."The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack."
A whip does provoke AoOs as a ranged weapon, but that's a specific exception.
So no attacking into melee penalties, and they would only suffer whatever cover penalties a normal melee weapon would when attacking.
One of my players wants to attach a bear trap to the end of his whip. He threw an absolute fit when I said no. I told him to leave my game if he can't control himself.Did we really have to go there its neither relevant to the thread or needed.** spoiler omitted **
As for Whips, quick question. do they suffer from cover? (Like when an ally is between you and the opponent?) Also firing into melee dosen't count for them, does it?
Yes on the cover, but it only counts as a ranged weapon for provoking attacks of oppurtunity, so firing into melee is not an issue.
Note that all reach weapons have to deal with cover, it is not specific for ranged weapons.
I removed a post and the posts replying to it. Leave forum drama where it is, thanks.