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I've been looking at this feat more and more, and I know that the flavour applies it to Scimitars, but at the same time I feel like it's just contributing so much boringness to weapon choice. "You're playing a dex fighter? You'd better use a Scimitar or you'll be terrible!" is all that I think of when I see this feat.
So would it really be broken to apply this feat to any one-handed or light weapon, so long as it is finessable? You would still need strength to carry your gear, and using a greatsword would require the muscle still, but it means people would dance with rapiers, and shortswords, and daggers! Rogues would get a power bump, and let's be honest, they need one.
Arguments against, go!
I don't think there is a problem with it except thematically, personally I would allow for a single weapon to be picked when you choose this feat.
As long as it is a finessable weapon.
I should add weapon finesse is free at my table and for a feat it can be applied to several other weapons that fit well with it, one handed swords in particular, so 'dervish dance' with a katana, longsword or whip would be quite possible.
Back in 3.5 I had a Rogue/Sword Sage who had the Bo9S feat that allowed me to add Dex bonus to damage rolls if I was using a shortsword. I don't remember if that feat restricted me to only one weapon or not, but that character only used a single shortsword. It didn't affect game balance at all IMO. It allowed me to boost my damage by a few points. It allowed me to maintain relevance in combat situations; it especially helped when I couldn't get Sneak Attack since the Dex bonus damage wasn't dependant on SA. It definitely didn't break the game. I still wasn't doing near the amount of damage that our Barbarian was pumping out, but it did help me build a combat relevant Rogue.
So, I don't think it would unbalance the game to allow any Finesse weapon to work with this feat, or one like it.
I've been looking at this feat more and more, and I know that the flavour applies it to Scimitars, but at the same time I feel like it's just contributing so much boringness to weapon choice. "You're playing a dex fighter? You'd better use a Scimitar or you'll be terrible!" is all that I think of when I see this feat.
So would it really be broken to apply this feat to any one-handed or light weapon, so long as it is finessable? You would still need strength to carry your gear, and using a greatsword would require the muscle still, but it means people would dance with rapiers, and shortswords, and daggers! Rogues would get a power bump, and let's be honest, they need one.
Arguments against, go!
Dervish Dance is basically a flavor choice in the PF campaign world (followers of Sarenrae, Qadira, etc.), hence the restriction to scimitars. It's not necessary to be associated with these but that's the assumption (the feat is in the inner sea world guide and not UC afterall). Of course, it is also a totally BA feat and every dex based fighter looks to it as salvation. I don't think allowing any finessable weapon to be used would break the game. So far nobody in the game I run has used this feat, but I would be comfortable letting my players use any finessable weapon, or at least pick any one instead of only having the scimitar as an option.
This has been adressed before, the problem with allowing it with any finesable weapon, is the Pirana Strike Feat, that would allow for a lot of power creep in the long run.
It's a limited feat for a reason, and I have no problem with it, MAYBE there could be something for some other weapons, but I wouldn't allow it AS IS for light weapons. Maybe something arround half dex bonus to damage, don't know.
Is the Scimitar finnessable before Dervish Dance? It's a feat that specifically modifies the Scimitar to count as a light weapon for finness, dex to damage and count as piercing for Duelist. And yes it is more of a flavor feat then most others.
On a side note. My problem is not that it works only with scimitars, my problem is that I believe "ALL" weapons should have something. Specially weapon combinations, 2 weapon fighting already sucks, it would be nice to see people using diferent weapons get something.
But, it would too be a Feat bloat, that already is a problem.
I've been looking at this feat more and more, and I know that the flavour applies it to Scimitars, but at the same time I feel like it's just contributing so much boringness to weapon choice. "You're playing a dex fighter? You'd better use a Scimitar or you'll be terrible!" is all that I think of when I see this feat.
So would it really be broken to apply this feat to any one-handed or light weapon, so long as it is finessable? You would still need strength to carry your gear, and using a greatsword would require the muscle still, but it means people would dance with rapiers, and shortswords, and daggers! Rogues would get a power bump, and let's be honest, they need one.
Arguments against, go!
The key to keeping this feat balanced is that you must keep you off-hand open. If you let it work with two-weapon fighting, I am not sure it would be balanced. If you allow it to work with all light weapons, and you let it work with TWF, you would end up with a character that can match the damage of some of the best damage dealing builds with an AC that is 10 higher.
Is the Scimitar finnessable before Dervish Dance?
No, prior to acquiring dervish dance you can't use wpn finesse with the scimitar. Which generally means using a rapier or something until 3rd lvl.
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The key to keeping this feat balanced is that you must keep you off-hand open. If you let it work with two-weapon fighting, I am not sure it would be balanced. If you allow it to work with all light weapons, and you let it work with TWF, you would end up with a character that can match the damage of some of the best damage dealing builds with an AC that is 10 higher.I've been looking at this feat more and more, and I know that the flavour applies it to Scimitars, but at the same time I feel like it's just contributing so much boringness to weapon choice. "You're playing a dex fighter? You'd better use a Scimitar or you'll be terrible!" is all that I think of when I see this feat.
So would it really be broken to apply this feat to any one-handed or light weapon, so long as it is finessable? You would still need strength to carry your gear, and using a greatsword would require the muscle still, but it means people would dance with rapiers, and shortswords, and daggers! Rogues would get a power bump, and let's be honest, they need one.
Arguments against, go!
Actually the balancing part of Dervish Dance is that the character still needs Power Attack to do the damage later on. Piranha Strike won't trigger off of a one-handed weapons. Unless there's errata or ruling somewhere that I didn't know about.
So no dumping STR unless I don't know about something.
The key to keeping this feat balanced is that you must keep you off-hand open. If you let it work with two-weapon fighting, I am not sure it would be balanced. If you allow it to work with all light weapons, and you let it work with TWF, you would end up with a character that can match the damage of some of the best damage dealing builds with an AC that is 10 higher.I've been looking at this feat more and more, and I know that the flavour applies it to Scimitars, but at the same time I feel like it's just contributing so much boringness to weapon choice. "You're playing a dex fighter? You'd better use a Scimitar or you'll be terrible!" is all that I think of when I see this feat.
So would it really be broken to apply this feat to any one-handed or light weapon, so long as it is finessable? You would still need strength to carry your gear, and using a greatsword would require the muscle still, but it means people would dance with rapiers, and shortswords, and daggers! Rogues would get a power bump, and let's be honest, they need one.
Arguments against, go!
Actually the balancing part of Dervish Dance is that the character still needs Power Attack to do the damage later on. Piranha Strike won't trigger off of a one-handed weapons. Unless there's errata or ruling somewhere that I didn't know about.
So no dumping STR unless I don't know about something.
A. There are ways to get power attack while dumping strength. Take 2 levels of ranger with the two-hand style, get power attack without needing to meet the prerequsites.
B. Maintaining a 13 strength to get power attack is a lot easier than getting the 17 and 19 dexterity you need for the last two feat in the TWF chain. Most TWF builds have to sacrafice strength to get improved TWF. Using a standard panel of 15,14,13,12,10,8, getting a 13 strength makes it the 3rd priority.
C. There are other ways to get a damage boost similar to power attack. The most obvious is sneak attack.
My Ranger 2/Alchmist(Vivisectionist) 8 build in the lastest DPR thread is clocking in at almost 100 DPR with a 34 AC at level 10 without using any short duration buffs. That is with the current rules for dervish dance. If you let me use TWF with a dervish dance like feat, my damage would go up significantly.
Actually the balancing part of Dervish Dance is that the character still needs Power Attack to do the damage later on. Piranha Strike won't trigger off of a one-handed weapons. Unless there's errata or ruling somewhere that I didn't know about.
So no dumping STR unless I don't know about something.
Correct unless they have remade Piranha Strike. I have heard people say you shouldn’t allow Dervish Dance type feats for all finesse weapons because it would stack with Piranha Strike if they use a light weapon. But even if you did allow it, and stacked a DD type feat for a shortsword with the PS feat, it is still not going to be as devastating as a Str based Fighter using a two handed weapon. (See argument below)
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove exceptionally deadly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
…..
This has been adressed before, the problem with allowing it with any finesable weapon, is the Pirana Strike Feat, that would allow for a lot of power creep in the long run.
It's a limited feat for a reason, and I have no problem with it, MAYBE there could be something for some other weapons, but I wouldn't allow it AS IS for light weapons. Maybe something arround half dex bonus to damage, don't know.
I have not read the threads you are referring to about this question being addressed. I am curious how a character using a Dervish Dance variant with a shortsword and taking the Piranha Strike feat would bring any power creep at all. It would be no different than a run of the mill Fighter using Str, a longsword, and Power Attack. The difference between that Dex based character and a Str based Fighter is, that’s as far as the Dex based character can go. The Str Fighter can opt to use two hands with his weapon and increase the Power Attack damage by an additional 50% plus doing 1.5 Str damage with a two handed weapon, the Dex based character can’t. The Str Fighter could even take the two handed fighter archetype and be doing x2 Str damage instead of x1.5 with his strikes and doing 200% Power Attack damage with each strike rather than 150% PA damage. The Dex based character with Dervish Dance and Piranha Strike is still stuck with only x1 Dex bonus to damage and +2 damage for -1 attack bonus ratio. And even though Piranha Strike allows for TWF the Dex character can’t increase his damage that way because Dervish Dance restricts the character to a single weapon.
I have heard people use this argument and I may be missing some munchkin way of turning this into a completely broken feat combo, but I am really curious to see how (1d6 19-20/x2) + (Dex Mod) + (+2 damage for -1 to attack) is even close to power creep when put next to a Str based Two Handed Fighter archetype who does (2d6 19-20/x2) + (2x Str mod) + (4 damage for -1 to attack) not to mention access to all the Power Attack based feat chains. I don’t see how that is unbalancing at all, the Str based Fighter (two handed or two weapon) is still going to do far more consistent damage than the Dex based character, even if it’s a Rogue with SA dice.
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My primary problem with Dervish Dance isn't that it is there (it really isn't OP), but that nothing else is there for the "not scimitar."
This is not true anymore! There is a new weapon enchantment in the Pathfinders Society Field Guide!! There is a weapon property called "Agile" that allows a weapon to use dex for damage, and its a +1 equivilant! I dont own a copy at the moment, but I plan to pick up a hard copy JUST for that enchantment.
My primary problem with Dervish Dance isn't that it is there (it really isn't OP), but that nothing else is there for the "not scimitar."This is not true anymore! There is a new weapon enchantment in the Pathfinders Society Field Guide!! There is a weapon property called "Agile" that allows a weapon to use dex for damage, and its a +1 equivilant! I dont own a copy at the moment, but I plan to pick up a hard copy JUST for that enchantment.
+1
That’s awesome. Thanks for pointing that out, I will definitely look for it.
Actually the balancing part of Dervish Dance is that the character still needs Power Attack to do the damage later on. Piranha Strike won't trigger off of a one-handed weapons. Unless there's errata or ruling somewhere that I didn't know about.
So no dumping STR unless I don't know about something.Correct unless they have remade Piranha Strike. I have heard people say you shouldn’t allow Dervish Dance type feats for all finesse weapons because it would stack with Piranha Strike if they use a light weapon. But even if you did allow it, and stacked a DD type feat for a shortsword with the PS feat, it is still not going to be as devastating as a Str based Fighter using a two handed weapon. (See argument below)
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove exceptionally deadly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.…..
...This has been adressed before, the problem with allowing it with any finesable weapon, is the Pirana Strike Feat, that would allow for a lot of power creep in the long run.
It's a limited feat for a reason, and I have no problem with it, MAYBE there could be something for some other weapons, but I wouldn't allow it AS IS for light
It's not TOTALLY overpowered. And yes the 2 handed fighter will deal more damage (thank God for that) still doens't adress the issue that the Dex fighter will have a Dump stat that the Str fighter won't. And the fact that he will have a way greater AC, Initiative, Reflex saves and skills. A character that is based in one ability score only will be more powerful overall.
My primary problem with Dervish Dance isn't that it is there (it really isn't OP), but that nothing else is there for the "not scimitar."This is not true anymore! There is a new weapon enchantment in the Pathfinders Society Field Guide!! There is a weapon property called "Agile" that allows a weapon to use dex for damage, and its a +1 equivilant! I dont own a copy at the moment, but I plan to pick up a hard copy JUST for that enchantment.
Reading though this thread I was going to point the same weapon enchantment but you beat me to it. It is a cery good enchantment...I have already asked my GM who runs Pathfinder(but not in Golarion) if I could take it...
Reading though this thread I was going to point the same weapon enchantment but you beat me to it. It is a cery good enchantment...I have already asked my GM who runs Pathfinder(but not in Golarion) if I could take it...My primary problem with Dervish Dance isn't that it is there (it really isn't OP), but that nothing else is there for the "not scimitar."This is not true anymore! There is a new weapon enchantment in the Pathfinders Society Field Guide!! There is a weapon property called "Agile" that allows a weapon to use dex for damage, and its a +1 equivilant! I dont own a copy at the moment, but I plan to pick up a hard copy JUST for that enchantment.
Well, is there ANY restriction to that enchantment? It seems pretty powerful to me.
My primary problem with Dervish Dance isn't that it is there (it really isn't OP), but that nothing else is there for the "not scimitar."This is not true anymore! There is a new weapon enchantment in the Pathfinders Society Field Guide!! There is a weapon property called "Agile" that allows a weapon to use dex for damage, and its a +1 equivilant! I dont own a copy at the moment, but I plan to pick up a hard copy JUST for that enchantment.
That is actually a really good way to handle it. You can gain dex to damage, but it comes at the cost of a +1 to hit and damage on each weapon.
With the same amount of money spent on weapons.
A level 10 two hand fighter would have a +3 weapon
A level 10 two-weapon fighter would have 2 +2 weapons
A level 10 finesse two-weapon fighter would have 2 +1 weapons with this enchant.
Well, is there ANY restriction to that enchantment? It seems pretty powerful to me.Reading though this thread I was going to point the same weapon enchantment but you beat me to it. It is a cery good enchantment...I have already asked my GM who runs Pathfinder(but not in Golarion) if I could take it...My primary problem with Dervish Dance isn't that it is there (it really isn't OP), but that nothing else is there for the "not scimitar."This is not true anymore! There is a new weapon enchantment in the Pathfinders Society Field Guide!! There is a weapon property called "Agile" that allows a weapon to use dex for damage, and its a +1 equivilant! I dont own a copy at the moment, but I plan to pick up a hard copy JUST for that enchantment.
Yes...it is only melee weapons. It is in place of strength. And the user must have weapon finesse...and the enchantment has to be a weapon that is useable with Weapon Finesse.
Yes...it is only melee weapons. It is in place of strength. And the user must have weapon finesse...and the enchantment has to be a weapon that is useable with Weapon Finesse.Well, is there ANY restriction to that enchantment? It seems pretty powerful to me.Reading though this thread I was going to point the same weapon enchantment but you beat me to it. It is a cery good enchantment...I have already asked my GM who runs Pathfinder(but not in Golarion) if I could take it...My primary problem with Dervish Dance isn't that it is there (it really isn't OP), but that nothing else is there for the "not scimitar."This is not true anymore! There is a new weapon enchantment in the Pathfinders Society Field Guide!! There is a weapon property called "Agile" that allows a weapon to use dex for damage, and its a +1 equivilant! I dont own a copy at the moment, but I plan to pick up a hard copy JUST for that enchantment.
Well, Dervish dancer are now a byebye.
Well, Dervish dancer are now a byebye.Yes...it is only melee weapons. It is in place of strength. And the user must have weapon finesse...and the enchantment has to be a weapon that is useable with Weapon Finesse.Well, is there ANY restriction to that enchantment? It seems pretty powerful to me.Reading though this thread I was going to point the same weapon enchantment but you beat me to it. It is a cery good enchantment...I have already asked my GM who runs Pathfinder(but not in Golarion) if I could take it...My primary problem with Dervish Dance isn't that it is there (it really isn't OP), but that nothing else is there for the "not scimitar."This is not true anymore! There is a new weapon enchantment in the Pathfinders Society Field Guide!! There is a weapon property called "Agile" that allows a weapon to use dex for damage, and its a +1 equivilant! I dont own a copy at the moment, but I plan to pick up a hard copy JUST for that enchantment.
It depends...it is like keen vs the Improve crit feat. I have characters that has one or the other...it depend if I need the money(and the space) on the item more that I need the feat. Or if I have multple weapons for different siturations? or your play with adults who don't cry if the GM breaks weapons.
Though it does lessen the value of the feat...slightly.
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It also does not apply 1.5 times dex if wielding a 2handed weapon, but most chars taking probably wouldnt be using a 2 hander anyway. But yeah, the weapon being enchanted has to be finesseable, the weapon/s enchanted will lose a +1 by having this have to be put on there. I dont think its overpowered at all, and gives a nice option to dex based characters.
Well, Dervish dancer are now a byebye.Yes...it is only melee weapons. It is in place of strength. And the user must have weapon finesse...and the enchantment has to be a weapon that is useable with Weapon Finesse.Well, is there ANY restriction to that enchantment? It seems pretty powerful to me.Reading though this thread I was going to point the same weapon enchantment but you beat me to it. It is a cery good enchantment...I have already asked my GM who runs Pathfinder(but not in Golarion) if I could take it...My primary problem with Dervish Dance isn't that it is there (it really isn't OP), but that nothing else is there for the "not scimitar."This is not true anymore! There is a new weapon enchantment in the Pathfinders Society Field Guide!! There is a weapon property called "Agile" that allows a weapon to use dex for damage, and its a +1 equivilant! I dont own a copy at the moment, but I plan to pick up a hard copy JUST for that enchantment.It depends...it is like keen vs the Improve crit feat. I have characters that has one or the other...it depend if I need the money(and the space) on the item more that I need the feat. Or if I have multple weapons for different siturations? or your play with adults who don't cry if the GM breaks weapons.
Though it does lessen the value of the feat...slightly.
I understand your statement. And it would be acurate, but you didn't think about the ramifications of it. Piranha strike is now fantastic for a +1 enchantment to a weapon. Most classes that use dex to hit and damage are not classes with a lot of feats, and they would still need the 13 str for PA, now, they do not. Trust me on this, when this become totally public, you'll end up seeing less and less Dervish dancers out there. Specially cause it made the 2 weapon dex warrior and amazing opponent with only 5 strength or something.
It also does not apply 1.5 times dex if wielding a 2handed weapon, but most chars taking probably wouldnt be using a 2 hander anyway. But yeah, the weapon being enchanted has to be finesseable, the weapon/s enchanted will lose a +1 by having this have to be put on there. I dont think its overpowered at all, and gives a nice option to dex based characters.
Well, I don't think it's TOTALLY overpowered. But the 2 weapon warrior (fighter, rogue, whatever) just became FANTASTIC. Because now, he can dump str without thinking twice.
It's not overpowered, but it's a no-brainer, and I don't like stuff like that so much.
Well, I don't think it's TOTALLY overpowered. But the 2 weapon warrior (fighter, rogue, whatever) just became FANTASTIC. Because now, he can dump str without thinking twice.
It's not overpowered, but it's a no-brainer, and I don't like stuff like that so much.
A smart player will think twice about dumping STR. At least if he doesn't want to be sticked to the floor after being targeted by a Ray of Enfeeblement. Also carrying capacity restrictions...
It also does not apply 1.5 times dex if wielding a 2handed weapon, but most chars taking probably wouldnt be using a 2 hander anyway. But yeah, the weapon being enchanted has to be finesseable, the weapon/s enchanted will lose a +1 by having this have to be put on there. I dont think its overpowered at all, and gives a nice option to dex based characters.Well, I don't think it's TOTALLY overpowered. But the 2 weapon warrior (fighter, rogue, whatever) just became FANTASTIC. Because now, he can dump str without thinking twice.
It's not overpowered, but it's a no-brainer, and I don't like stuff like that so much.
It is only a no brainer because dervish dance has too many other restrictions. It is the 2 ranks in dance that I find distasteful. 2 ranks in dance means you cannot get the feat until level 3 on most characters(level 2 if you are a fighter).
Beyond that, if I was making a duelist or feral mutagen alchmist character, I would definately go for dervish dance over the enchant.
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Well, I don't think it's TOTALLY overpowered. But the 2 weapon warrior (fighter, rogue, whatever) just became FANTASTIC. Because now, he can dump str without thinking twice.
It's not overpowered, but it's a no-brainer, and I don't like stuff like that so much.
Two-weapon rogues already dumped strength as much as they could, and are still blocked from doing so completely by a DM that pays attention to carrying capacity rules.
What about this feat:
Dervish Dance 1.1
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Perform (Dance) 2 Ranks
Benefit: When wielding a weapon which can be used with weapon finesse with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat this weapon as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The weapon must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
This would allow dexterity fighters to do more damage while staying survivable, which is their creed. It would NOT allow a DEX fighter to outdamage (or even match) a STR fighter, and if STR is dumped down to 7, they aren't carrying anything other than weapons and light armor.
Well, I don't think it's TOTALLY overpowered. But the 2 weapon warrior (fighter, rogue, whatever) just became FANTASTIC. Because now, he can dump str without thinking twice.
It's not overpowered, but it's a no-brainer, and I don't like stuff like that so much.Two-weapon rogues already dumped strength as much as they could, and are still blocked from doing so completely by a DM that pays attention to carrying capacity rules.
What about this feat:
Dervish Dance 1.1
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Perform (Dance) 2 RanksBenefit: When wielding a weapon which can be used with weapon finesse with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat this weapon as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The weapon must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
This would allow dexterity fighters to do more damage while staying survivable, which is their creed. It would NOT allow a DEX fighter to outdamage (or even match) a STR fighter, and if STR is dumped down to 7, they aren't carrying anything other than weapons and light armor.
It still allows for Piranha Strike and STR dumpage. The only reason anyone wanted STR even for dex chars was because of PA, now they don't need it. Sure, there will be some carrying restrictions, but a guy like that wouldn't even wear armor, so, I still think it's very powerful for a +1 enchantment.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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This is not true anymore! There is a new weapon enchantment in the Pathfinders Society Field Guide!! There is a weapon property called "Agile" that allows a weapon to use dex for damage, and its a +1 equivilant! I dont own a copy at the moment, but I plan to pick up a hard copy JUST for that enchantment.
You're welcome :) I freely admit that agile was inspired by a similar enhancement that let you use Wis for damage (guided, from the Crimson Throne adventure path).
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It still allows for Piranha Strike and STR dumpage. The only reason anyone wanted STR even for dex chars was because of PA, now they don't need it. Sure, there will be some carrying restrictions, but a guy like that wouldn't even wear armor, so, I still think it's very powerful for a +1 enchantment.Well, I don't think it's TOTALLY overpowered. But the 2 weapon warrior (fighter, rogue, whatever) just became FANTASTIC. Because now, he can dump str without thinking twice.
It's not overpowered, but it's a no-brainer, and I don't like stuff like that so much.Two-weapon rogues already dumped strength as much as they could, and are still blocked from doing so completely by a DM that pays attention to carrying capacity rules.
What about this feat:
Dervish Dance 1.1
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Perform (Dance) 2 RanksBenefit: When wielding a weapon which can be used with weapon finesse with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat this weapon as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The weapon must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
This would allow dexterity fighters to do more damage while staying survivable, which is their creed. It would NOT allow a DEX fighter to outdamage (or even match) a STR fighter, and if STR is dumped down to 7, they aren't carrying anything other than weapons and light armor.
We may have to agree to disagree, but a 7 STR character's (what I think of when someone mentions stat dump) carrying restrictions go far beyond "can't wear heavy armor". Here is the carrying capacity page. As you can see, a 7 STR character can carry 23 lbs of weight before he is now burdened with a medium load. So let's pull up a light weapon, and some typical adventurer gear, and see how he does:
1 Dagger, 1lb.
Padded Armor, 10lbs.
Belt of Incredible Dexterity, 1lb.
Cloak of Resistance, 1lb.
Handy Haversack, 5 lbs.
Boots of Striding and Springing 1lb.
That's 19 lbs, and I don't think I added anything truly frivolous there. Maybe take off the boots for an extra pound, and of course you can shrug off the Haversack (at the risk of someone running off with it) to get another five pounds leeway. This character is still incredibly vulnerable to any STR drain or damage; dropping him down to 5 STR means he has to drop his haversack, or take off his armor.
I would not want to play a character this vulnerable. Carrying capacity, when enforced, WILL make strength important, whether a character uses it to attack or not. Maybe an addition to the feat however:
Dervish Dance 1.1
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Perform (Dance) 2 Ranks
Benefit: When wielding a weapon which can be used with weapon finesse with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat this weapon as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The weapon must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand, or when you are encumbered by a medium or heavy load.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
This, in my opinion, is not in any way overpowered. You trade two feats for the ability to keep your strength at relatively low levels; however, if you keep it too low, you risk losing the benefit should you become over-encumbered somehow.
I'd probably add a str 10 requirement to piranha strike, but the dervish dance for any finessable weapon doesn't bother me at all.
I am considering adding feats that simulate a monks flurry as well, giving -2 on all attacks but allowing an extra attack at full BAB. Allowable for one hand or two hand weapons, but 2 hand weapons won't get 1.5 str bonus or enhanced power attacks. Requirement AB+4 and WF I think.
I kinda welcome seeing something different than a rogue with two weapons.
This is not true anymore! There is a new weapon enchantment in the Pathfinders Society Field Guide!! There is a weapon property called "Agile" that allows a weapon to use dex for damage, and its a +1 equivilant! I dont own a copy at the moment, but I plan to pick up a hard copy JUST for that enchantment.You're welcome :) I freely admit that agile was inspired by a similar enhancement that let you use Wis for damage (guided, from the Crimson Throne adventure path).
I looked for the guided enchanment in the CotCT AP but couldn't find it. Can someone tell me which issue it is in?
I looked for the guided enchanment in the CotCT AP but couldn't find it. Can someone tell me which issue it is in?
AP#10