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Hey All,
Just have a snappy question regarding grapple.
If I want to grapple, do I need to make an attack roll to hit first, or is it just a straight CMB+d20 vs CMD? If so then I have a followup question.
So if a creature with the "grab" special attack hits with the indicated attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity right? If that's the case then when a monster has a better chance to hit a target with its CMB vs the target's CMD (as opposed to trying to hit the target's normally higher AC), then should it not just go straight for a grapple instead?
And if this is the case, does it provoke an attack of opportunity because technically its not using its "grab" ability as written?
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Hey All,
Just have a snappy question regarding grapple.
If I want to grapple, do I need to make an attack roll to hit first, or is it just a straight CMB+d20 vs CMD? If so then I have a followup question.
There's nothing in the rules anywhere that ever says you need to make an attack roll first, so no, you just make a combat maneuver check as described in the combat maneuver section of the combat chapter of the CRB. Just do exactly what's written and you'll be fine. :)
So if a creature with the "grab" special attack hits with the indicated attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity right? If that's the case then when a monster has a better chance to hit a target with its CMB vs the target's CMD (as opposed to trying to hit the target's normally higher AC), then should it not just go straight for a grapple instead?
If its sole goal is to grapple, then sure, have it do a "normal" grapple attempt. However, if it wants to attack AND grapple in the same turn, then there's a definite upside to the "grab" ability, don't you think?
And if this is the case, does it provoke an attack of opportunity because technically its not using its "grab" ability as written?
It would be a normal grapple attempt, so all normal grapple rules would apply. Thus, if it does not have the Improved Grapple feat, it would provoke.
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If its sole goal is to grapple, then sure, have it do a "normal" grapple attempt. However, if it wants to attack AND grapple in the same turn, then there's a definite upside to the "grab" ability, don't you think?
Sure, but here's an example.
I have a monster with a +5 CMB and a +3 to hit bonus. The target is a Paladin with an AC of 18 and a CMD of 14.
In other words:
AC 18 vs d20+3 (needing to roll a 15+)
- OR -
CMD 14 vs d20+5 (needing to roll a 9+)
By using the grab ability, the creature needs to hit first before being able to get the free grapple check. Alternatively if it just grapples first (sure its provokes), it has a much better chance of continuing to grapple its target and then doing its damage.
With grab it is all about action economy. The creature with grab is not trying to grapple you, he is trying to hit you and he gets a free grapple attempt if he does. Yes he has to hit first but he is squeezing two rounds of actions into one.
Plus, there's the added benefit of getting a +4 to initiate the grapple when using grab.
However the creature it's using grab on must be at least 1 size category smaller. So if this is a medium creature, it'll have to use a regular grapple to get a hold of him.
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Plus, there's the added benefit of getting a +4 to initiate the grapple when using grab.
Didn't know that. Thanks for pointing it out.
However the creature it's using grab on must be at least 1 size category smaller. So if this is a medium creature, it'll have to use a regular grapple to get a hold of him.
But Bestiary 2 says "Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents no larger than the same size category as the creature. If the creature can use grab on sizes other than the default, this is noted in the creature’s Special Attacks line."
This is not what Bestiary 1 says, as it says, "Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent."
That change is not mentioned in the Bestiary 1 Errata. And that's a big change.
Ahah. Indeed Grab was changed from Bestiary I to II.
Just looked up grab's entry in the Additional Universal Monster Rules.
Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents no larger than the same size category as the creature. If the creature can use grab on sizes other than the default, this is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line.
I guess there's no change log list anywhere is there?
I'd like to mention that creatures with the grab ability get the +4 to grapple on any grapple checks they make, not just the ones from the grab ability itself :)
Also, I have asked the dev's about the change a while ago and the Bestiary 2 is now the official rule. They felt that the old rule was too limiting.
If you only want to grapple your opponent then yeah, you have a much better chance of success if you don't use grab. The only downside is that you don't do any damage if you just attempt to grapple them.
It looks like this :
First : d20+3 vs AC18 - If you hit then you do damage equal to the attack you used.
Then : d20+9 vs CMD 14 - If you succeed they are now grappled and hurt.
or
d20+9 vs CMD 14 - If you succeed they are now grappled.
As for your second question :
If a creature with reach isn't threatened by it's target then it would not provoke an AoO if it tried to start a grapple normally. Anything with reach and a good CMB (grab or not) is pretty nasty ;)