Let's Try to Break the ACG and Technology Guide

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

Let's try to break the ACG and Technology Guide (either/or or both). The first one that comes to mind is Samsaran Witch with Mystic Past Life and spells from the Summoner list, and then Technomancer. This gives a lot of spells that are not on the list. Another, similar option is Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc Shaman with spells from the cleric list and a summoning focus (Spell Focus-Conjuration, Augment Summoning, etc.). This makes for a very good zookeeper build with summoned monsters, a spirit animal, and buff spells. At higher level cleric direct damage and battlefield control spells become available through the FCB.

Any other ideas?

[Fnipernackle]

No

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

Another one could be a human Musketeer Swashbuckler modeled after the Techslinger Gunslinger archetype. The extra feat for being human helps her to get the feats to use a tech firearm. Teamed up with the Witch/Technomancer they could be half of a potent party, especially in Iron Gods.

[Ventnor]

Put some in Powered Armor.

I don't know if that breaks the game or not. I just want to have a character that wears Powered Armor.

[ElementalXX]

Gunslinger, signature deed, techslinger archetype

Use a Vortex gun

Use deadshot deed

30d6+dex+etc on a 100 FT CONE!(uses 0 charges)

PD: Can also work with vital strike

[Just a Mort]

Dirge bard 8/order of the cockatrice 2

Or

Dirge bard 13.

Feats: Improved Dirge of doom, feats to increase your intimidate check.

Dazzling display + Dirge of Doom. Oooh, we get some critters frightened. (Probably works for a few rounds only due to intimidate mods).

At lower levels, just use Blistering invective(I hope you know a lot of languages).

However, if you somehow get someone in the party with enforcer and bludgeoneer, that could last as long as you have rounds of bardic performance...

Best part? No saves, no SR.

[Treefolk]

Chain Saw. 3d6 Medium Sized
Be Trox (large player race), large chainsaw 4d6.
Get Lead Blades (ranger dip + wand; hunter dip; etc) 6d6 chainsaw.
Bloodrager, Abyssal Enlarge 12d6 chainsaw.
Vital Strike for 24d6.

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

Blade Adept Arcanist 6/Technomancer with a Null Blade. The requirements to construct one aren't too bad, looks reasonably powerful.

[LessPopMoreFizz]

A Monowhip can do some nasty things in combination with Slashing Grace and some other swashbuckler deeds. Get large and use Longarm and you can establish a 40 foot zone of AOO death.

[Rerednaw]

With the very high costs, charge limits, slow-fire (single shot, full-round action, no interatives) restrictions...I don't find many options at mid-level that really break anything. Certainly nothing beyond what has been done before the tech book. It appears in some cases gunpowder firearms are superior to energy weapons.

I have not seen anything broken out of the gate using standard wealth at low levels. At least not yet.

At high levels the balance goes out the window, but that was true since core.

Why not set some guidelines (say similar to the DPR Olympics) and see what folks cobble together if a baseline comparison is what you are looking for? So far it seems that the previous content for the most part has it beaten quite handily.

[Haladir]

No, let's not.

[Jayson MF Kip]

The ACG is easy to break. Drop it on it's spine and it'll get messed up pretty good.

The technology guide is softcover, though, so you'll probably need to tear it somehow. An earlier poster mentioned chainsaws- -that could do a pretty sufficient job at ruining a book.

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed an unhelpful post.

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

Rerednaw wrote:

With the very high costs, charge limits, slow-fire (single shot, full-round action, no interatives) restrictions...I don't find many options at mid-level that really break anything. Certainly nothing beyond what has been done before the tech book. It appears in some cases gunpowder firearms are superior to energy weapons.

I have not seen anything broken out of the gate using standard wealth at low levels. At least not yet.

At high levels the balance goes out the window, but that was true since core.

Why not set some guidelines (say similar to the DPR Olympics) and see what folks cobble together if a baseline comparison is what you are looking for? So far it seems that the previous content for the most part has it beaten quite handily.

I think the DPR Olympics thread works better for discussing maximizing DPR. I think there's room to have a lot of power at mid levels with Tech Item creation feats. But it's a good idea, so let's see what we can make:

Guidelines
20 pt buy
Any Paizo products
Standard WBL
Item creation allowed
Teams allowed, so if your Techslinger needs a Technomancer charging items make both

[The Mighty Khan]

Rerednaw wrote:

With the very high costs, charge limits, slow-fire (single shot, full-round action, no interatives) restrictions...I don't find many options at mid-level that really break anything. Certainly nothing beyond what has been done before the tech book. It appears in some cases gunpowder firearms are superior to energy weapons.

I have not seen anything broken out of the gate using standard wealth at low levels. At least not yet.

At high levels the balance goes out the window, but that was true since core.

Why not set some guidelines (say similar to the DPR Olympics) and see what folks cobble together if a baseline comparison is what you are looking for? So far it seems that the previous content for the most part has it beaten quite handily.

I ran a game where a guy made a mid level wizard with an improved familiar. He and the familiar just spammed wands of fireball. It was pretty broken. Then the wands ran out and he couldn't afford to replace them.

So on the one hand it eventually balanced out. On the other hand, it was pretty annoying to have this guy just going nova all over the AP I was running.

So is it really that overpowered? Not in the long run. Is it annoyingly game breaking? Sometimes.

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

Here's the first of a team:

Sedna
Samsaran Witch 6/Technomancer 6
Mystic Past Life

Str 9
Dex 14 (12 +2 Belt)
Con 12 (+2 belt)
Int 28
Wis 12
Cha 10

Feats-
1 Combat Casting
3 Technologist
5 Skill Focus- knowledge(engineering)
7 Craft Magic Arms and Armor
9 Craft Technological Arms and Armor
11 Craft Technological Item

Elements Patron
Hexes- Misfortune, Cackle, Slumber, Evil Eye
Compsognathus familiar

Bonus Spells:
Mystic Past Life (from Summoner spell list)-
Haste, Greater Invisibility, Teleport, Summon Monster VII (as 5th level spell), Summon Monster VIII (as 6th level spell)

Elements Patron-
Shocking Grasp, Flaming Sphere, Fireball

Technomancer-
Recharge, Discharge

Gear: (asterix denotes self-crafted)
Headband of Int +6
Corset of Dire Witchcraft*
Force Field (white)*
Cloak of Resistance +5
Cackling Hag's Blouse*
Belt of Physical Might +2 (Dex and Con)
Handy Haversack
Rod of Interminable Hexes
Ring of Protect +2
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Two wands of cure light wounds

Sedna is a debuffer and tech support character. She can repair and recharge items, and allows the other team members to use tech effectively.

[Edit] This is why it warrants a separate thread from DPR Olympics- Sedna will never be great at DPR, but can help other team members have high DPR with her Technomancer levels. She's got debuffing, healing, summoning, battlefield control, and tech. A Slayer or Swashbuckler with a chainsaw can have high damage, but needs someone to keep the chainsaw or power armor going. If anyone would like to add builds, feel free to assume Sedna is available as a party member. And if this is a build thread now, it might belong in Advice.

[2nd Edit] If we allow Prestige Points and Fame she could take Eclectic Training to regain the lost spellcasting level. Let's add that to the ground rules, PP appropriate for the level is allowed.

[bugleyman]

Taking the Divine Protection feat on pretty much any Oracle...

[Taenia]

So glad they nixed that feat in PFS, too must have for many clerics/oracles and even some druids.

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

From the Knee-Jerk Reactions to the ACG thread, Cape of Feinting +Swashbuckler= opponent dazed indefinitely with no save. Not bad. I'll try to add a combat build supported by Sedna sometimes tonight.

[Athaleon]

ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:

From the Knee-Jerk Reactions to the ACG thread, Cape of Feinting +Swashbuckler= opponent dazed indefinitely with no save. Not bad. I'll try to add a combat build supported by Sedna sometimes tonight.

But it does take up your own Standard Action.

[graystone]

Athaleon wrote:

ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:

From the Knee-Jerk Reactions to the ACG thread, Cape of Feinting +Swashbuckler= opponent dazed indefinitely with no save. Not bad. I'll try to add a combat build supported by Sedna sometimes tonight.

But it does take up your own Standard Action.

Yep, a standard action from one player that negates one creature on ANY power level. A 7th level swashbuckler can keep a Tarrasque or Kaiju at bay for all time.

[Athaleon]

graystone wrote:

Athaleon wrote:

ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:

From the Knee-Jerk Reactions to the ACG thread, Cape of Feinting +Swashbuckler= opponent dazed indefinitely with no save. Not bad. I'll try to add a combat build supported by Sedna sometimes tonight.

But it does take up your own Standard Action.

Yep, a standard action from one player that negates one creature on ANY power level. A 7th level swashbuckler can keep a Tarrasque or Kaiju at bay for all time.

Provided he can get into melee with these creatures without getting flattened, and provided the BBEG's minions don't force him to break off. Difficult fights should never involve a single creature anyways. Compensating for the action economy disadvantage requires a creature absurdly more powerful than the party.

[Artemis Moonstar]

*cough*

11th level. Techslinger. Signature deed feat.

Techslingers get the following deed.

Covet Charge (Ex): At 1st level, a techslinger can spend 1 grit point to use 1 charge fewer than normal when firing a technological weapon (minimum 0), as long as the weapon has enough charges remaining to be fired at least once. This deed replaces deadeye.

Use a 1 charge using item, and you pretty much never have to worry about running out.. Far as I know. Also, Techslingers get this too.

Charge Recycling (Ex): At 11th level, by spending 1 grit point, a techslinger can grant 1 temporary charge to a technological firearm, even if the firearm normally can no longer be recharged. This charge must be used within 1 hour or it fades. The techslinger can grant temporary charges to multiple firearms as long as she has enough grit, but temporary charges do not stack with themselves in the same firearm. At 15th level, the techslinger can grant 2 temporary charges when she uses this deed, and at 19th level, she can grant 3 temporary charges. This deed replaces expert loading.

So, yeah, run out and you don't need to worry for an hour when combined with above.

Enjoy.

[graystone]

Athaleon wrote:

Compensating for the action economy disadvantage requires a creature absurdly more powerful than the party.

Even if all that character does is take the most powerful creature out of play while the rest of the party deals with the minions, I think it's a well used standard action every round. Even if we spread it out and make 3 creatures, one standard action a round takes care of 1/3 of it with NO use of resources.

Athaleon wrote:

Difficult fights should never involve a single creature anyways.

You should check out this companies adventure paths. Often it IS a "single creature".

[Artemis Moonstar]

graystone wrote:

Athaleon wrote:

Difficult fights should never involve a single creature anyways.

You should check out this companies adventure paths. Often it IS a "single creature".

And this is a problem. IMO anyways.

Just because something's op'd in an AP does not mean it's OP'd in a homebrew game... Unless the GM uses similar design.

Just like I ignore the Crane Wing nerf when I run, because it's never been a problem for me. Then again, I'm old school, brutal, and run my enemies according to how intelligent they should be.

But this is derailing.

Give me an hour or two, I might have something that busts heavy weapons wide open. Need to check a few things... After dinner.

[graystone]

Oh, I don't think you're wrong Artemis. Just pointing out that in the AP's (and therefor PFS) things don't run like a home game would. It's the reason Crane Wing got kicked below the belt.

Also, on the Techslinger check out this line from Charge Recycling. "even if the firearm normally can no longer be recharged". Dead, non-working guns work just fine for them for an hour with a point of grit.

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

I'm looking forward to seeing Techslinger builds. Here is a Swashbuckler modeled after a Techslinger:

Wesley Robert Sparrow
Half-Orc Musketeer Swashbuckler

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 24 (16 +2 racial +2 levels +4 headband)

Feats
1 Weapon Finesse-Rapier, Weapon Finesse- Musket, Gunsmithing, Rapid Reload- Musket (from Musketeer Training)
Dodge
3 Point Blank Shot
4 Dueling Cape
5 Precise Shot
7 Deadly Aim
8 Improved Initiative
9 Extra Panache
11 Steadfast Personality
12 Imp. Critical- Rail Gun

Gear- Folding Boat
Cape of Feinting
Headband of Cha +6
Small Rail Gun (counts as pistol)
Bracers of Armor +4
+1 Rapier

This could be pretty powerful, even without adding precise strike damage to the Rail Gun. It would take a flexible GM to allow a small rail gun as a one-handed firearm, but Sedna could keep it charged. The Half-Orc FCB gives a bonus to confirm criticals, which could be deadly with the rail gun.

[graystone]

I don't know about any build that can't recharge their own weapons some way. You'd end up totally dependent on others to do it for you. You might be able to get away with it in a Numeria only game. Sedna takes a dirt nap and you've got an expensive paperweight instead of a weapon. A single level of Techslinger instead of straight swashbuckler at least lets you spend grit for charges if need be.

[Zwordsman]

Ignore all of this . ill retype when I can actually get a keyboard, and not sabotage myself with tablet attempts.
Always looks ok until after I press enter, I habe to wonder if ive been sabotages by my6 friens changing the auto corrects.

[graystone]

Dude... Spell check. I got about 1 word out of each sentence.

[Artemis Moonstar]

Hmm... Gunslinger X / ??? X / Technomancer (Minimum 3)....

No, that's just me dying to play with Radiation effects. Atom Gun, Atom Grenades, Irradiate.... Con Drain. So lovely.

Tinker tinker, tinker tinker. Welding sparks. Blast doors close while alarm sounds. Maniacal laughter.

[ElementalXX]

You can recharge with magic cost about 500gp per charge, the techslinger can shoot a weapon using grit to use 0 charges. With signature deed, this deed cost 0 grit, hence Infinitely shoot your railgun.

IT requires level 11 techslinger tought

[Zwordsman]

I thought that deed said specifically it min 1 for the charges per grit thing, if I remember right...?

And as for what I tried to type,
The dart gun and elixer of sexchange is fun. Shoot the bug bad during his giant im evil speech, just looses all his or her steam.
And if your gm is funny, might have a random effect roll. When being forcefully changed on random effect my gm has on his random table is Armour not fitting right. Was amusing when it happened uneer a different circumstance.

[ElementalXX]

Is min 0 charges, so yeah at level 11 basically you can shoot antimatter rifles at will

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

A couple people said they'd post Techslinger builds, a Techslinger with a rail gun is more powerful than a Swashbuckler with a rain gun. I think the Cape of Feinting only works 3 times/day even for a Swashbuckler, but is pretty powerful. Next up is a Slayer with a Chainsaw to team up with Sedna and Wesley, probably posted tomorrow.

[christos gurd]

So a small sized chainsaw is a one handed slashing weapon for a medium Swashbuckler.

[graystone]

ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:

I think the Cape of Feinting only works 3 times/day even for a Swashbuckler, but is pretty powerful.

Sadly a 7th+ Swashbuckler can use it every round for the rest of their lives...

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

I need to edit Wesley Robert Sparrow, Extra Panache should be replaced by Ex. Weapon Proficiency- Rail Gun.

[Corrik]

graystone wrote:

ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:

I think the Cape of Feinting only works 3 times/day even for a Swashbuckler, but is pretty powerful.

Sadly a 7th+ Swashbuckler can use it every round for the rest of their lives...

But Wizards, that makes it okay right?

[graystone]

Corrik wrote:

graystone wrote:

ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:

I think the Cape of Feinting only works 3 times/day even for a Swashbuckler, but is pretty powerful.

Sadly a 7th+ Swashbuckler can use it every round for the rest of their lives...

But Wizards, that makes it okay right?

Even a wizard would give a save for it. And uses resources. Not so for that combo.

[ParagonDireRaccoon]

graystone wrote:

ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:

I think the Cape of Feinting only works 3 times/day even for a Swashbuckler, but is pretty powerful.

Sadly a 7th+ Swashbuckler can use it every round for the rest of their lives...

The daze and loss of Dex bonus makes it easier to break the ACG and Technology Guide. A Swashbuckler dazing a kaiju while Techslingers with rail guns and slayers with oversized chainsaws do a lot of damage.

Sedna is the kind of all-around caster I usually play- debuffing, buffing, healing, summoning, direct damage, transportation, item creation. She has summon monster VII as a 5th level spell and summon monster VIII as a 6th from the summoner list, but isn't DPR Olympics-powerful. Wesley Robert Sparrow is more fun than powerful. When Artemis Moonstar posts a Techslinger with heavy weapons I think we'll see the bar raised for ACG and Tech Guide power builds.

[Artemis Moonstar]

ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:

When Artemis Moonstar posts a Techslinger with heavy weapons I think we'll see the bar raised for ACG and Tech Guide power builds.

Don't get your hopes up too high. Heavy Weps are a bit harder to bust than I initially thought. Slow-Firing is kicking my [REDACTED]...

So, expect it to be more of a fun build than anything ultra-broke.

[Deadkitten]

Granted that its is Dreamscarred Press BUT: BE A SOULKNIFE

Emulate Melee Weapon

The soulknife can form her mind blade to replicate any single melee weapon, chosen at the time she takes this blade skill. The soulknife is proficient with her mind blade in this form and it functions in all ways as the chosen weapon. This blade skill may be taken multiple times; each time, it allows the soulknife to form her mind blade to replicate a different melee weapon. This blade skill may not be used with the mind bolt.

And then take a look at some of those Melee weapons and how much they "cost"

*cough*monowhip*cough*

Goodbye WBL.

[Treefolk]

I thought soul knife's emulated a specific statline and what weapon it appeared as was cosmetic.

[graystone]

Deadkitten wrote:

Granted that its is Dreamscarred Press BUT: BE A SOULKNIFE

Emulate Melee Weapon

The soulknife can form her mind blade to replicate any single melee weapon, chosen at the time she takes this blade skill. The soulknife is proficient with her mind blade in this form and it functions in all ways as the chosen weapon. This blade skill may be taken multiple times; each time, it allows the soulknife to form her mind blade to replicate a different melee weapon. This blade skill may not be used with the mind bolt.

And then take a look at some of those Melee weapons and how much they "cost"

*cough*monowhip*cough*

Goodbye WBL.

I don't see how you'd be able to emulate a tech item. At best, you'd have an item without any charges. A Chainsaw is a lot less impressive when you have to smack someone with it unpowered.

[Deadkitten]

Even if it didn't form with charges. you could get ahold of a way to recharge the weapon.
and i agree that it does not make sense that you can emulate a tech weapon however because of the ability you CAN.

[Bandw2]

vortex gun

just use this against an army as opposed to a single big bad.

[graystone]

Deadkitten wrote:

Even if it didn't form with charges. you could get ahold of a way to recharge the weapon.

and i agree that it does not make sense that you can emulate a tech weapon however because of the ability you CAN.

It doesn't have to be a WORKING weapon that can be charged. It can take it's form, nothing says it can make a working tech item. It just has to "functions in all ways as the chosen weapon" and it's do that as a non-powered one. That's how I'd rule it.

[Bandw2]

christos gurd wrote:

So a small sized chainsaw is a one handed slashing weapon for a medium Swashbuckler.

it still counts as being a two-handed weapon for feats and such, though i doubt anyone would complain if a GM hand waived it for the rule of cool.