Whether you were a rogue fan or not before, I would like to congratulate the developers on listening to what people were saying and making some fairly (IMO) necessary changes to the rogue.
I honestly prefer the Ninja now, but there is enough mechanical gap between the Ninja and Rogue to keep one from flat out dominating as a whole.
Just thought I would mention it, as I'm normally one of the first people to discredit the rogue at every turn.
Hooray for UC!
Admittedly I have only had the chance to breeze through the UC book at this point, but what was done to improve rogues? I must have missed it.
at the very least there are about a dozen or so new Feign feats that make Feigning both easier and allow you to Feign/Attack or Attack/Feign/Withdraw as a single action. This will make sneak attack easier.
at the very least there are about a dozen or so new Feign feats that make Feigning both easier and allow you to Feign/Attack or Attack/Feign/Withdraw as a single action. This will make sneak attack easier.
This. A TWF rogue can now feint in place of his first attack with his main hand. Once he gets up to Greater Feint, then that feint will apply until his next turn, which means that all the rest of his attacks are sneaks. The rogue now does not have to tumble into the middle of a scrum and place himself in the middle of the angry melee brawl in order to get flanking to get his sneak attacks.
Not only does this let the TWF rogue get a near full-attack routine of sneaks off without flanking, but it also gives the rogue a viable (read: self-interested) reason to get Greater Feint. Previously, the rogue himself got nothing from Greater that Improved didn't already grant.
I also really like the hidden blade (dagger) archetype. My backstabbing rogues have a reason to use a dagger again. ;)
And for all the hullabaloo about how much better the Ninja is, weeaboohoo, any Ninja Trick the Ninja gets, the rogue can have too, and that gives them plenty of sweet options. (Admittedly, I'd make the Ki Pool rogue talent give the Rogue the Ninja's Ki Pool feature, but I digress...)
There are also things for more charisma based rogues to do. There are a couple of neat talents in there to make them better. They get some minor magical abilities by taking the Ninja dip feat, and they are no longer the only sneaky class without Hide in Plain Sight.
They added enough things to let them mechanically do what people have been protesting that they do anyway.
I like Ninjas better due to the style of rogue I would look forward to playing. Rogues, however, still have the advantage in traps, which comes up as often as your DM makes it. (It also costs 2 talents to get your first Ninja Talent, while Ninjas can take all Basic Rogue Talents immediately). There is also the issue of Ninjas ki pool running of cha instead of wis (rogues), and better options for using it, which again gives them an edge to me.
Even with all this, rogues are still a full time and a half better than they were before.
Can you combine the knife fighter with any other archetype to get even better sneak attacks? I heard the knife fighter gets d8s (with daggers and I'm assuming kukris, kerambits, stuff like that) with his SA in the 900-post thread.
Yup. The rogue got lots of love here... I really dig the hidden blade and the pirate! And the new feats!
But... where are all the 'combat themed' talents hiding?
Aside from under the heading, "ninja tricks," I mean.
And anyone can take feats.
The ability to get a familiar (ie is really, really nice, but it sorta screams... I dunno, a bit... "ultimate magic" -ish.
I have not the book yet, but (confirm) there should be an Hide in Plain Sight talent, swif action feints, more Sneak Attack damage with sap, and more action during surprise rounds.
Please, confirm this and heal my broken heart <3 :P
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I have not the book yet, but (confirm) there should be an Hide in Plain Sight talent, swif action feints, more Sneak Attack damage with sap, and more action during surprise rounds.
Please, confirm this and heal my broken heart <3 :P
There's HiPS, but needs to be taken once per terrain type.
Yes on swift feinting feats, yes on feint as first attack feats.
Rogues made it out like bandits (cheap pun intended) in UC, perhaps most after Monks.
Shame on HiPS*, awesome on the rest.
Thank you.
*unless you can select shadows - you know what I mean
Shame on HiPS*, awesome on the rest.
Thank you.
*unless you can select shadows - you know what I mean
I had a player once would would have listed favored terrain as "Outside"
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Shame on HiPS*, awesome on the rest.
Thank you.
*unless you can select shadows - you know what I mean
If regular Rogues could take full HiPS, a certain famous Core PrC could go and cry in the corner...
Between Ninja Tricks, new feats, HiPS, getting a full round of sneak attacks just got that much easier. And I love that!
If regular Rogues could take full HiPS, a certain famous Core PrC could go and cry in the corner...Shame on HiPS*, awesome on the rest.
Thank you.
*unless you can select shadows - you know what I mean
Nothing bad in my opinion. Certain classes already share spells or class features.
I agree that some PrC is awesome to have for specific combos (one poster pointed out Paladin + Shadowdancer for the Goshdarn Batman).
But core classes shoud have priority.
@seekerofshadowlight: very imaginative your player ;)
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@seekerofshadowlight: very imaginative your player ;)
The same guy put skills into Knowledge (all) and claimed he had them all as the book listed it as Knowledge (all). He was...creative.
The same guy put skills into Knowledge (all) and claimed he had them all as the book listed it as Knowledge (all). He was...creative.
@seekerofshadowlight: very imaginative your player ;)
Skill consolidation! If he did it in 3.5, he anticipated the times. Pure genius!
I have not the book yet, but (confirm) there should be an Hide in Plain Sight talent, swif action feints, more Sneak Attack damage with sap, and more action during surprise rounds.
Please, confirm this and heal my broken heart <3 :P
There's HiPS, but needs to be taken once per terrain type.
Yes on swift feinting feats, yes on feint as first attack feats.
Rogues made it out like bandits (cheap pun intended) in UC, perhaps most after Monks.
What makes me sad is that Rogue, using Rogue abilities, still has the worst options for HiPS. Eldritch Heritage (Shadow). 2 feat investment giving unlimited HiPS for shadows at level 11. 2 feats, all terrains with shadows, which is what most rogues want HiPS for anyways.
Even with UC, a SORCERER ability is still better than the ROGUE talents.
I <3 Shadowdancer, but HiPS should have been turned straight up into an advanced talent. SD could still get it 5 levels earlier than a pure rogue.
I am sure you could roll the shadowdancer abilities into rogue talents, possibly some with prerequistes so they copy the level you get into the SD PrC and the rough order you get the abilities, or possibly even better make it an archetype. this would make the SD as is obsolete in part, but that is what the magus did to EK as well.
I have not the book yet, but (confirm) there should be an Hide in Plain Sight talent, swif action feints, more Sneak Attack damage with sap, and more action during surprise rounds.
Please, confirm this and heal my broken heart <3 :P
The sap stuff is actually pretty ridiculous.
Sap adept requires +1D6 SA and lets you add +2 damage per sneak attack die rolled when you're doing nonlethal with a bludgeoning weapon.
Sap master requires Sap adept and +3D6 SA and lets you roll your sneak attack damage dice twice and sum the damage. You have to actually have the enemy flat footed for this one, though, so this works well with the feinting feats.
So for instance, a level 5 rogue with both of these feats is doing 6D6+12 damage on his sap sneak attacks instead of 3D6, when he catches the enemy flat footed. Said rogue could also have improved feint by now if he used a talent on combat trick or if he's human, so that's still viable.
It's especially awesome once you get the "Invisible blade" advanced ninja trick at level 10, (requires you to take two other ninja tricks first) since this will let you walk around for the whole battle with greater invisibility. Using a +1 merciful bow, blunt arrows, and sniper goggles the damage can get pretty ridiculous with this option. (Sap master and sap adept don't require said nonlethal blunt damage to be from a sap or even from a melee weapon at all)
Sap master requires Sap adept and +3D6 SA and lets you roll your sneak attack damage dice twice and sum the damage. You have to actually have the enemy flat footed for this one, though, so this works well with the feinting feats.So for instance, a level 5 rogue with both of these feats is doing 6D6+12 damage on his sap sneak attacks instead of 3D6, when he catches the enemy flat footed. Said rogue could also have improved feint by now if he used a talent on combat trick or if he's human, so that's still viable.
Not so much with feint. Feint doesn'tmake you flat footed, it just denies you your dex bonus to AC which is technically not flat footed. You still get SA off it, but Sap Master wouldn't trigger.
If you think rogues are "no longer" horrible, you weren't playing them right to begin with, IMO. Rogue were, and still are, solid gold.
More egoistic mensuration. Its an insulting ad hom against people that disagree with you. I HEAR a lot about how rogues are this super awesome class when played "right" but either shockingly few specifics on what these apparently indescribable techniques are to play a rogue right. The rogue supporters either deviate from some of the stealth rules, fight the last edition against deathtraps, or think that 2 rogue sneak attacks in a 5 round fight is awesome damage.
-Plenty of people who think the rogue is underpowered have been playing as long as you have
-Plenty of people who think the rogue is underpowered could run a rogue as well as you.
I see no reason why someone needs the rogue class to be a rogue. You can be a devil may care neer do well with a quick wit and penchant for disregarding the rules with almost any class (paladin i'm looking at you)
Not so much with feint. Feint doesn'tmake you flat footed, it just denies you your dex bonus to AC which is technically not flat footed. You still get SA off it, but Sap Master wouldn't trigger.
Sap master requires Sap adept and +3D6 SA and lets you roll your sneak attack damage dice twice and sum the damage. You have to actually have the enemy flat footed for this one, though, so this works well with the feinting feats.So for instance, a level 5 rogue with both of these feats is doing 6D6+12 damage on his sap sneak attacks instead of 3D6, when he catches the enemy flat footed. Said rogue could also have improved feint by now if he used a talent on combat trick or if he's human, so that's still viable.
Ah, I overlooked that. Looks like it's primarily useful on the initiation of combat or once you have a reliable means to get greater invisibility, then.
The thing that gets me is that Rogues can now be better at the Favored Terrain thing than Rangers. This strikes me funny. Could make for some SICK Horizon Walkers.
The thing that gets me is that Rogues can now be better at the Favored Terrain thing than Rangers. This strikes me funny. Could make for some SICK Horizon Walkers.
Well, the ranger bread & butter are the Favored Enemy and Combat Style. Favored Terrain for the ranger is a utility power, liken-able to Trap-finding.
And understanding terrain does fit into the shtick of the rogue. They are supposed to be the chess-masters who have an innate understanding of timing, positioning, and spatial awareness. Hence SA, Evasion, Trap-finding, etc. Terrain-oriented bonuses make sense.
And for all the hullabaloo about how much better the Ninja is, weeaboohoo, any Ninja Trick the Ninja gets, the rogue can have too, and that gives them plenty of sweet options.
Although the ninja can take a rogue Advanced Talent while the rogue can't take a ninja Master Trick.
Greater invisibility doesn't make the target flat-footed. It makes the target lose Dex bonus to AC.
Looks like it's primarily useful on the initiation of combat or once you have a reliable means to get greater invisibility, then.
It looks like I'm just messing everything up today.
The Scout archetype of the Rogue would probably make it work, though only allowing a single attack per round.