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Our group recently had a character made helpless through a Hold Person spell, then a Coup De'grace was performed by a rouge type. (Red Mantis Assassin). The character attacked has moderate Fortification on his armor.
What I want to know is how this works. Fortification can stop Critical hits, and it can stop Sneak Attack damage. Is there only a single roll on the armor since there was only one attack, or is there multiple rolls on the armor to count for the two types of damage? (critical and sneak attack)
Sneak attack damage isn't an attack in and of itself, it's a rider effect added into the attack it associated with. So one roll would be appropriate.
I would think 2 since its two different effects. IE if the first passes but not the second its still a crit but no sneak attack.
I would think 2 since its two different effects. IE if the first passes but not the second its still a crit but no sneak attack.
Read the coup de grace rules. It's one action, not multiple hits, so you would only roll once. Also if the fortification kicked in, it would make the target immune to the coup de grace for that attempt apparently (as per the description on page 197).
It's one attack, so I would think it would be one roll. The fortification either works (and stops both the critical and sneak attack) or it doesn't.
One attack, so one roll...
I'm a viscious GM. If a character, be it NPC or PC, is made completely immobile, they're toast to the coup de grace. It's definately not RAW. I also have max damage from a long fall capped at (terminal velocity) 20d20 + 50 points of damage.
I'd similarly houserule the same way Gendo, but I accept that RAW says different...
I'm a viscious GM. If a character, be it NPC or PC, is made completely immobile, they're toast to the coup de grace.
I'm half-inclined to agree. However, I'm also a greedy person. That means I might let it work if there's a free meal in it for me.
I'm a viscious GM. If a character, be it NPC or PC, is made completely immobile, they're toast to the coup de grace.I'm half-inclined to agree. However, I'm also a greedy person. That means I might let it work if there's a free meal in it for me.
I see where that is going ;)
Does your armor fortification work? Hmmm, I'll need a bit to think about it. Let's get supper, who's for Pizza?
Let's see...ooops, my wallet appears to be empty. Too bad, it's going to really be hard to think on an empty stomach. You'll pay? Oh thank you!
Hmmmmm....my coffee cup appears to be empty too. *taps side of coffee cup*
I'm a viscious GM. If a character, be it NPC or PC, is made completely immobile, they're toast to the coup de grace.I'm half-inclined to agree. However, I'm also a greedy person. That means I might let it work if there's a free meal in it for me.
My DM is fond of chocolate. A fellow player is convinced if she doesn't bring chocolate as an "offering" to the DM each week her character will die. It can't hurt, that's for sure.
I would think 2 since its two different effects. IE if the first passes but not the second its still a crit but no sneak attack.
Read the coup de grace rules. It's one action, not multiple hits, so you would only roll once. Also if the fortification kicked in, it would make the target immune to the coup de grace for that attempt apparently (as per the description on page 197).This is what came up in the discussion. Some believe that Talonhawke is right and others believe that Skylancer4 is correct.
Here are the arguments.
Armor Fortification: This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.The bold type or's are one main cause of discussion, because nowhere does it say "and".
If you are going to be that finicky about the exclusive nature of OR, then fortification shouldn't be able to block a hit which is both a critical hit AND a sneak attack, since it only works when one or the other happens. If both happens, it cuts straight through.
This is what came up in the discussion. Some believe that Talonhawke is right and others believe that Skylancer4 is correct.
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Here are the arguments.
Armor Fortification: This suit of armor or shield produces a magical force that protects vital areas of the wearer more effectively. When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
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The bold type or's are one main cause of discussion, because nowhere does it say "and"
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C.oup de Grace
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced "coo day grahs") to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can't deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you've determined what square it's in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
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I have put the keys words in bold type here also.
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FortiFortification negates a critical but does not make one immune, by the wording used. Fortification also states that if the critical is negated, then damage is rolled normally, and if damage is done then sneak attack damage could still be applied as per the coup de'grace.
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So the arguement really comes down to "what the good people at Paizo intended for each of the two items." Does Fortification make one "Immune", and/or can Coup De'grace be negated and if so does it take one or two rolls?
In order for multiple rolls to come into effect you would need multiple attacks. Without getting into the fluff of what a coup de grace is, we are looking at the end game mechanics.
A) You spend a full round action to perform a coup de grace. At the end of that action you get an (1) automatic critical attack which also allows for you to add in your sneak attack damage as a rider effect. It is still one seperate solitary attack with one (or possibly two) extra effects being added.
B) The attack action resolves, the armor fortification effect kicks in and "on success" (because failure allows full effect on both) negates the critical and sneak attack rider effects.
C)This leaves the target taking normal damage and not having to make a save for death, it was immune to critical damage for that attempt (via fortification) and the immunity clause kicks in from the coup de grace.
Part of the design philosophy of Paizo (which was stated many many times during BETA) was to lower the number of rolls at the table in order to streamline the gaming experience and not bog combat down. Multiple rolls is a direct opposite to what they stated they wanted for Pathfinder.
I get that there is an "or" in the description of Fortification, but usually you are getting a critical OR sneak attack damage on any attack, it is much less common to get a critical AND sneak attack damage on one attack (lucky dice rolling basically). By saying "or" they covered the bases, as in if either attack effect is made the armor can negate it. If it said "and" it could be read that both need to be present for the armor effect to kick in, which is obviously not the case as they took the other wording and would make it a pretty useless ability. (EDIT: Ninja'd on that account)
Ah, but was the target immune to the critical hit? As far as I see, the crit was just negated. (IMHO, along with the sneak attack extra damage, no point in rolling twice, it's the same strike after all).
However, if the crit was negated on that occasion, IMHO no one said the target was immune to crits (or sneak attack), so IMHO the Death save (based on normal damage) would still be necessary.
Ah, but was the target immune to the critical hit? As far as I see, the crit was just negated. (IMHO, along with the sneak attack extra damage, no point in rolling twice, it's the same strike after all).
However, if the crit was negated on that occasion, IMHO no one said the target was immune to crits (or sneak attack), so IMHO the Death save (based on normal damage) would still be necessary.
Exactly. The crit is negated, but the target is not immune to critical hits. It's like if somebody successfully makes a ride check to use mounted combat to negate a hit... it doesn't make them immune to attacks, it just means they negated that hit.
You still roll damage normally and the target still has to make a fort save vs 10+dmg or die.
I'm a viscious GM. If a character, be it NPC or PC, is made completely immobile, they're toast to the coup de grace.I'm half-inclined to agree. However, I'm also a greedy person. That means I might let it work if there's a free meal in it for me.
I see where that is going ;)
Does your armor fortification work? Hmmm, I'll need a bit to think about it. Let's get supper, who's for Pizza?
Let's see...ooops, my wallet appears to be empty. Too bad, it's going to really be hard to think on an empty stomach. You'll pay? Oh thank you!
Hmmmmm....my coffee cup appears to be empty too. *taps side of coffee cup*
Oh, not at all. It's more like "Does your fortification armour work? Depends: Do I have to pay for my food tonight?"
I'm corrupt, not a mooch. ;-P
Ah, but was the target immune to the critical hit? As far as I see, the crit was just negated. (IMHO, along with the sneak attack extra damage, no point in rolling twice, it's the same strike after all).
However, if the crit was negated on that occasion, IMHO no one said the target was immune to crits (or sneak attack), so IMHO the Death save (based on normal damage) would still be necessary.
Exactly. The crit is negated, but the target is not immune to critical hits. It's like if somebody successfully makes a ride check to use mounted combat to negate a hit... it doesn't make them immune to attacks, it just means they negated that hit.
You still roll damage normally and the target still has to make a fort save vs 10+dmg or die.
After re reading by RAW that would be correct, though personally for a PC to get into a coup de grace situation, many things had to go wrong and I would be tossing them a bone and still ruling that it negated the coup de grace in our home games.