Making Combat Expertise work?

[Helaman]

There is a LOT of hate out there because its seen as a roadblock feat but also because of how the feat is written.

How would you change it to make it work better?

I'm not big guns on how it works at the moment but the real **** in the punchbowl is that you lose bonus to hit AND CMB but only get a bonus to AC. At the minimum it should also apply to CMD and to my thought should actually start at +2 (not +1).

Its expertise in Combat - if it can be used to provide tangible bonuses to avoid tripping, disarming etc then it does become more benificial at the very least.

However, throw you ideas on the pile - who knows, maybe the gang will note the ideas for when PF eventually hits a new edition.

[brother ehhnnzioh]

I would make it apply to CMD (I was under the impression effects on AC also affected CMD) and have it scale as Power Attack does (-1 for +2)

[Maxximilius]

UC resolves issues with Combat Expertise with some archetypes/feats specifically increasing the bonus to AC/reducing the penalty to attack you get, making the feat way more attractive.

EDIT: Also, CE gives a dodge bonus, this bonus also applies to your CMD.

[leo1925]

Ehh
Combat expertise already gives you bonus to CMD.

[Matthew Downie]

I saw a house rule suggestion in another thread that suggested Combat Expertise could allow you to choose between sacrificing accuracy to gain AC or sacrificing AC to gain accuracy.

[Finarin Panjoro]

I played around with the applying the power attack paradigm to combat expertise. That is that with appropriate equipment it becomes more effective. So a player with a shield has the option of using it to create a shield bonus to AC at +2 per point of attack penalty.

[Remco Sommeling]

I do not advise changing it to be more like power attack, for one because power attack is a powerful feat that just about everyone that can benefit from it takes. +1 AC is also more powerful or at the very least different than +1 on damage, and hardly can be compared.

I do not advise to give shield bearers more powerful benefit from such a feat, they are already the ones benefitting the most from CE because they tend to have significantly better AC, if an opponent needs a 15+ to hit and gains +3 on AC the damage he receives will be halved, if on the other hand a creature is hit on a 9+ that same +3 on AC is reducing damage by roughly 25% only.

I changed CE in my campaign to have more immediate use on lower levels.

It is a simple fix, completely different from the PA mechanic, giving a steady bonus which you can use to either reduce the penalty to hit or gain a higher AC bonus while fighting defensively. This will make the feat useful right from the bat at low level.

Combat Expertise

While defensive fighting you can choose to gain either +2 to hit or +2 AC, which stacks with the usual modifiers for defensive fighting. You can change the bonus every round on your turn when you decide to fight defensively.

[james maissen]

Helaman wrote:

There is a LOT of hate out there because its seen as a roadblock feat but also because of how the feat is written.

How would you change it to make it work better?

One of two ways:

1st. Reduce the penalty to hit to a non-scaling -1. (And allow a trait to remove this entirely). And then increase the bonus to AC based on the fighting style being used (two-handed, one-handed, light).

Or

2nd. Alter it to be essentially the Duelist's ability "Parry(EX)", but include any weapon valid for weapon finesse. Then give the Duelist combat expertise as a bonus feat plus an improvement (the parry is always at full BAB regardless of attack withheld).

I personally favor the 2nd solution as it seems a solid feat as frankly it should be a contender with the likes of Power Attack.

-James

[Helaman]

Remco Sommeling wrote:

Combat Expertise

While defensive fighting you can choose to gain either +2 to hit or +2 AC, which stacks with the usual modifiers for defensive fighting. You can change the bonus every round on your turn when you decide to fight defensively.

I like this a lot.

[Atarlost]

james maissen wrote:

2nd. Alter it to be essentially the Duelist's ability "Parry(EX)", but include any weapon valid for weapon finesse.

The problem with this is that it's still a prerequisite for the improved maneuver feats that use weapons, and many trip and or disarm weapons are not finesseable.

[Jiggy]

Maxximilius wrote:

UC resolves issues with Combat Expertise with some archetypes/feats specifically increasing the bonus to AC/reducing the penalty to attack you get, making the feat way more attractive.

WaitwaitwaitWHAT? Whyyyyy do I not have UC yet? My Expertise fighter needs these feats!

[Charender]

From reading the other thread i would do this.

-1 to hit plus an additional -1 per 4 BAB.
Add twice that amount to your CMB.

So a level 8 fighter take a -3 to hit and CMB and gets +6 to CMB for a net gain of +3 CMB.

This makes it a lot more useful for the feats it is a prerequisite for.

Rework fighting defensively and all out defense to scale with level. Create some feats that chain off of dodge that improve your ability to fight defensively.

For the record, i have always hated the way fighting defensively and combat expertise did the same thing in completely different manners.

[Leongorance]

What is UC lol?:)
Would love to check those feats.

[Staffan Johansson]

Leongorance wrote:

What is UC lol?:)

Would love to check those feats.

UC = Ultimate Combat, which is being released at GenCon. Plenty of subscribers have gotten PDF copies already.

[Leongorance]

Ah i see...thanks.
Well i am from Serbia...is there any chance i can buy that?I have to buy it from amazon,ebay or stuff like that or i can just get it with credit card?And how much it cost?
Thanks in advance!