I apologize if this particular question has been covered before - I know there has been much discussion about this combo.
Here is the backstory. When we made the switch to Pathfinder (almost a year ago now) my biggest optimizing player quickly saw the combo. So now he is an archer-type fighter/wizard/arcane archer who uses this in combo with gravity bow to devastating effect.
I try to house rule only when I must. So my response has been to have them fight more archer types, the occasional wind wall, opponents under water, and other various ways to avoid being pin-cushioned. But I am not out to spoil a player’s fun, so for the most part he has been very effective.
Now he has asked me to house rule the combo out of my campaign. He feels it is unfair to the other non-archer fighters. Not so coincidentally, his 2 nephews are joining the campaign, and they both made non-archer type fighters.
So I want to see how many of you have house ruled the combo.
I've never had anyone try both mainly because of the increased negative to hit.
The PFRPG version of Manyshot doesn't impose any penalty to attacks. It basically gives you one free arrow with any full attack.
If I were going to house rule it, I might restrict Manyshot to not add the damage bonuses twice (a la Vital Strike). But then again, that would make it much less popular.
Rapid Shot has always seemed dubious to me; it is effectively Two-Weapon Fighting for archers. Whereas melee TWFs have to go out of their way for the style (feat plus high dexterity), all archers will end up with Rapid Shot. Archers can also full-attack much easier.
All of that said, I wouldn't change Rapid Shot or Manyshot because they are assumed pieces of the puzzle in overall balance and parity between archers and two-handed fighters.
Like LazarX said, this is an issue of optimization disparity. The player in question will likely always find some combo that upsets the rest of the game, that is who he is. For example, I am currently playing a witch and feel really guilty about cheezing the Slumber hex, but I do it anyway ;).
I never realized that PF had made manyshot and rapid shot complementary. No one I game with has ever brought it up either, so it hasn't been an issue.
Those of you who have not had this combo come up in your campaigns are quite lucky. This character is easily the most effective in our group (damage-wise) using this combo.
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I don't. Archers were, historically speaking, very powerful, I figured this was Pathfinder's way of finally making that a reality in their system. Same with Deadly Aim.
Back in 3.5 archery was incredibly weak unless you used several very specific pieces of equipment and spells, at which point you could destroy large sections of cities, or armies, with basically no room for reinterpretation.
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We never houseruled this combo. It is part of the core, and this is the first time I read about someone who did. O_o
Do you even apply the AC bonuses, the cover and concealment rules ?
Any opponent with an obstacle between you and him, like another opponent, gets a +4 to AC. If you shoot at soemone who is in melee, it is a -4 to your roll if you haven't precise shot, so if you shoot at someone in melee and there is a creature between you and the target, you basically get -8 to attack.
Add in it the Rapid Shot penalty, and even before you try to add Deadly Aim, you have -10 to all attacks during this round. Add in a burning fire with a lot of smoke close to you, drawing a thin cloud between you and where you are shooting at ? You also get a 20% risk of failure for your attacks. Add in a Bad Weather with heavy wind for a -2 circumstance penalty if you want to be mean.
Also, Wind wall, like you already used. A great way to make a BBEG immune and push the archers to focus on annoying minions while your melee and magic friends close the deal.
An archer fighter is known to be one of the most powerful build out there, but there are also a lot of ways to deal with them. Embushes, combat maneuvers against them or against their awesome bow of the killing death, overall massive damage from a surprise overhand chop/vital strike, spells, simply applying the rules so the normal penalties hit them.
I don't think your problem is this combo, but it is that your archer optimizing player maybe should help it's fellow players build characters that will not feel overshadowed by him instead of nerfing himself.
Come on, it's not like he's using fails in the system and hacked it's way to awesomeness. He's simply using Rapid Shot + Manyshot like probably any other archer character out there in the world. This combo isn't something new nor overpowered, it is just really good the same way a 2HF with Power attack and damage feats is ugly.
We never houseruled this combo. It is part of the core, and this is the first time I read about someone who did. O_o
Do you even apply the AC bonuses, the cover and concealment rules ?
Any opponent with an obstacle between you and him, like another opponent, gets a +4 to AC. If you shoot at soemone who is in melee, it is a -4 to your roll if you haven't precise shot, so if you shoot at someone in melee and there is a creature between you and the target, you basically get -8 to attack.
Add in it the Rapid Shot penalty, and even before you try to add Deadly Aim, you have -10 to all attacks during this round. Add in a burning fire with a lot of smoke close to you, drawing a thin cloud between you and where you are shooting at ? You also get a 20% risk of failure for your attacks. Add in a Bad Weather with heavy wind for a -2 circumstance penalty if you want to be mean.
Also, Wind wall, like you already used. A great way to make a BBEG immune and push the archers to focus on annoying minions while your melee and magic friends close the deal.An archer fighter is known to be one of the most powerful build out there, but there are also a lot of ways to deal with them. Embushes, combat maneuvers against them or against their awesome bow of the killing death, overall massive damage from a surprise overhand chop/vital strike, spells, simply applying the rules so the normal penalties hit them.
I don't think your problem is this combo, but it is that your archer optimizing player maybe should help it's fellow players build characters that will not feel overshadowed by him instead of nerfing himself.Come on, it's not like he's using fails in the system and hacked it's way to awesomeness. He's simply using Rapid Shot + Manyshot like probably any other archer character out there in the world. This combo isn't something new nor overpowered, it is just really good the same way a 2HF with Power attack and damage feats is ugly.
At present I have not house ruled the combo. In fact I don't really want to. Now some of my encounters/NPCs use the combo as well. In fact in one encounter I had a rogue (with 1 level of fighter) nearly kill a PC with a well-timed rapidshot/manyshot/deadly aim/sneak attack.
This player has pretty much built the characters for the 2 new players - since they are his nephews and he brought them into the game. One is a two-weapon fighter (Elven Curve Blade) and the other a fighter/duelist type with spring attack - yes I house ruled Vital Strike to work with it.
They are optimized within reason - but they are newbies. He claims that it was building their characters with them that made him see the problem.
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2HF (ECB) is a really nice build for critical hits and overall damage. While the archer is dealing a lot of damage with regularity, this one will deal even more, less often but 1/4 of the time with 2x damage.
I know at level 9 you can easily go into something like +40 on one critical Power Attack with a not-too optimized barbarian, so an optimized fighter with weapon training, gloves of dueling and +2 to damage with a feat or with the 2HF archetype will do marvels.
Fighter/duelist, on the other hand, even with SA houseruled with VS will need something other than damage to shine - and if your archer player thinks he's gonna outshine him, he's probably right if done wrong.
Archer is nice, and deals a lot of damage, but suffers a lot of weaknesses that can be easily exploited.
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I believe many shot only happens on the first shot then rapid shot follows. I maybe wrong.
But with an arcane archer it's pretty deadly with the gravity bow spell.
In the game i'm running I allow the combo of all three. Melee fighters tease him but a barbarian with power attack, weapon focus/specialization feats (improved critical) and cleave + rage can do just as much damage. then when the arcane archer cast enlarge on the fighter....it's even.
Why can't fighters have nice things? Would you rather they play a wizard with persistent spell and a flesh to stone DC in the 30's?
Deflect arrow is already cheezy and good enough, I don't see the need to give it even more grunt... show me any other ability that allows you to flat out deny an attack, regardless of the opponents level and what their roll was :P
Manyshot + Rapid is fine, the stack of negatives thrown on, especially with Deadly aim, mean that this is a combo for taking out the trash. Significant foes are going to be far less worried.
Would you take out the Cleave line?
I don't know how other people do it, but since Manyshot's two arrows come out and hit at the same time, it seemed logical to us that Deflect Arrow and Catch Arrow deflects/catches the two arrows at the same time.
It's one more way to make life harder for your archer.
This is what we do in our games
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Deflect arrow is already cheezy and good enough, I don't see the need to give it even more grunt... show me any other ability that allows you to flat out deny an attack, regardless of the opponents level and what their roll was :P
Isn't there now a Crane Style feat that allows you to do the same in melee? I think I read a thread somewhere complaining about it.
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Deflect arrow is already cheezy and good enough, I don't see the need to give it even more grunt... show me any other ability that allows you to flat out deny an attack, regardless of the opponents level and what their roll was :P
You're the first person I see on these forums that don't talk about Deflect Arrow like it is something only noobs are taking, and even then, by a terrible mistake. Since two arrows are shot at the same time and precision damage apply only once, it makes sense to deflect both at the same time.
Also, Crane Wing : "Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you."
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Like LazarX said, this is an issue of optimization disparity. The player in question will likely always find some combo that upsets the rest of the game, that is who he is. For example, I am currently playing a witch and feel really guilty about cheezing the Slumber hex, but I do it anyway ;).
I play a 14th level Sorcerer whose Disentigrate DC is somewhere in the 30s ... I agree with you about the cheeze thing xD.
Still, nothing says "hilarity" like disentigrating two greater demons with Fort save bonuses of +10 and upwards. "What do you MEAN I need to roll a 20 with these guys? They're beefy DEMONS?!"
I have a similar issue when i played a ranger it always confused me those feats,
do they just count for arrows? or how about hand axes or throwing axes?
and do the feats officially by raw stack?
I have a similar issue when i played a ranger it always confused me those feats,
do they just count for arrows? or how about hand axes or throwing axes?
and do the feats officially by raw stack?
Rapid shot always works with any ranged weapon. Many shot specifically works with only bows.
Throwers get to cheeze Rapid Shot + Two Weapon Fighting, though it does not ammount to as much DPR usually, or have the range. Having enough physical weaponry is also an issue for throwers.
Would you take out the Cleave line?
+1
Exactly what I was going to say.
This player has pretty much built the characters for the 2 new players - since they are his nephews and he brought them into the game. One is a two-weapon fighter (Elven Curve Blade) and the other a fighter/duelist type with spring attack - yes I house ruled Vital Strike to work with it.
They are optimized within reason - but they are newbies. He claims that it was building their characters with them that made him see the problem.
I suspect the problem is not with the archer's build, but with his nephew's builds, or what is expected of them.
The Two-Handed Fighter (Elven Curve Blade) I'm guessing he built with high DEX, which as a non-rogue melee is sub-par. (If this one were built with high STR, I doubt we'd even be having this conversation.) He will need weapon finesse to even get on the playing field, and also combat reflexes to take the only advantage of a melee DEX build--extra AoOs. He will be feat starved from his race choice (or weapon choice) as well as from the build concept.
The duelist with spring attack isn't built for damage, it's built for skirmishing and surviving. Not sure why he thinks it's a problem this build would be low on damage output. (Unless the duelist has whirlwind attack, which if he is also wielding an ECB would be pretty cool.)
That being said, these builds are fine, provided no one expects anything from them that they are not capable of delivering. But they certainly don't warrant nerfing archery feats. If your archer doesn't want to outshine his nephews, tell him to just down play his character's abilities.
Off topic, would Dervish Dance work with an ECB? The description says it is "essentially a longer version of a scimitar."
I suspect the problem is not with the archer's build, but with his nephew's builds, or what is expected of them.
The builds are good. The two-handed fighter is a Str build and the Spring Attack duelest made a decision to be more mobile and do less damage.
They were both very effective in our one play test game. The two-hander did some massive damage, and the spring attacker was very slippery.
This weekend will be the first real game with the other 4 PC's.
Still I expect they will do very well because there are no fighters among the other 4 players - except for uncle archer.
It has not been houseruled in any campaign I've played, that said, your observation is certainly correct, archery dwarfs melee for damage potential in Pathfinder.
The Houserule I would recommend is to look up the 3.5 rules for the Manyshot feat and bring those into effect.
Here's a link for you: LINK
Basically the only difference is it is used with a Standard attack instead of a full attack.
This means it doesn't stack with Rapid Shot, but your player will still benefit from the feat because it increases his versatility (allowing him to move and shoot fairly effectively).
Overall I think this is the right fix for the problem. I don't know why they changed the feat for Pathfinder, but I think it was a mistake.
It has not been houseruled in any campaign I've played, that said, your observation is certainly correct, archery dwarfs melee for damage potential in Pathfinder.
The Houserule I would recommend is to look up the 3.5 rules for the Manyshot feat and bring those into effect.
Here's a link for you: LINK
Basically the only difference is it is used with a Standard attack instead of a full attack.
This means it doesn't stack with Rapid Shot, but your player will still benefit from the feat because it increases his versatility (allowing him to move and shoot fairly effectively).
Overall I think this is the right fix for the problem. I don't know why they changed the feat for Pathfinder, but I think it was a mistake.
Thanks for your input Treantmonk. I am a fan of your guides.
Thank you. Best of luck!!!
With your player actually requesting a houserule, looks like whatever you decide to do, at least you don't have to worry about an upset player.
Why can't fighters have nice things? Would you rather they play a wizard with persistent spell and a flesh to stone DC in the 30's?Indeed,
A fighter with an archery build has a DPR just maybe 10% more than a comparably well built Two handed weapon build. Check the DPR olympics thread.
Considering the downsides of such a fighter in comparison (the biggest being he doesn't control any area to speak of at all of the battlefield, he's about as close to pure DPR as it gets), I don't think it is unbalanced at all.
The difference at the table is bigger though, because a 2 handed fighter looses a good chunk of their DPR moving around from victim to victim, whereas an archer is more likely to be able to full attack.
I houseruled it. Rapid shot is a feat which requires Quick Draw instead of PBS, with an Agility requirement (my revision of Dex). Manyshot is Vital Strike for ranged weapons, and I separated those type of feats for melee and ranged. PBS isn't a feat requirement for many ranged feats nomores either, Deadly Aim is. So you need Deadly Aim for Manyshot.
Archers don't have to move around a lot if all your fights are held on wide open football fields and they have purchased a few feats to shoot into melee.
If you fight in dungeons etc then fights will favour the melee classes over ranged.
Make sure there's variety, and no one player will dominate your game :)
Oh and thanks for the Crane guff, like Defelect arrow thats a pretty handy ability. No way I'd let it block BOTH arrows of a Manyshot though, UNLESS you are happy letting me take the Manyshot on my second or third shots... We can call the first one a "gimme" when lighting up Monks.
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Note that Deflect Arrows lets you : "Once per round when you would normally be hit with an attack from a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it".
Manyshot : "your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit".
It's still only ONE attack ; so by RAW, DA works on both arrows, which when used this way, constitute one unique attack.
Then if you are going to play that way, it would only be fair to let the second shot be the manyshot. I have an archer Ranger in a campaign where the badguys are a School of Monks. Deflect arrows pretty much shut him down.
One monk, funny. A bunch? not so much.
As it goes, every time he shoots at a monk he is basically having to give up an attack, it means multiple opponent targetting is pretty unworkable.
"If the attack hits, both arrows hit".
"Once per round when you would normally be hit with an attack from a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it".
So reckon thats one hit you get to deflect, not the pair of hits... :)
Similarly, it is NOT precision damage, and individual and resistances are applied to each arrow - so it is indeed two hits.
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Then if you are going to play that way, it would only be fair to let the second shot be the manyshot. I have an archer Ranger in a campaign where the badguys are a School of Monks. Deflect arrows pretty much shut him down.
One monk, funny. A bunch? not so much.
As it goes, every time he shoots at a monk he is basically having to give up an attack, it means multiple opponent targetting is pretty unworkable.
By RAW, it's the first attack that gets two arrows. But well, go for it, allow it for the second one. It doesn't matter, since Deflect Arrows need to be aware of the attack, and the monk will probably choose to deflect the two-arrows-in-one-attack next round instead of the first one as soon as he knows what you are doing.
Are you implying the monk is overpowered in front of a ranger because he can deflect one attack per round ? Just because they got one feat that makes one of yours useless, when you've got full BAB, better HP, favored enemy, more feats and way more DPR ?And it's not like all monks HAVE to get this feat, especially with all the new kool options we got these last months. These feats are fine in the way they work.
"If the attack hits, both arrows hit".
"Once per round when you would normally be hit with an attack from a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it".
So reckon thats one hit you get to deflect, not the pair of hits... :)
Similarly, it is NOT precision damage, and individual and resistances are applied to each arrow - so it is indeed two hits.
The number of arrows doesn't matter, it's still ONE "attack" from a ranged weapon. DA allows you to deflect one "attack from a ranged weapon". Seems pretty crystal-clear to me.
Feel free to houserule it as you wish though.
I guess we differ in our translation then.
One attack roll,
Two arrows used,
Two hits ("Both hit" - RAW)
Both apply separate damage due to having resistances etc individually applied.
I'm still awaiting the day a cheezemonkey points out that it says "attack from a ranged weapon" and then applies it to all the shots fired and deflects the lot because iterative attacks are part of a full-round "Attack" action. If you emphasise ATTACK over HIT you open the door to that goodness.
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I guess we differ in our translation then.
One attack roll,
Two arrows used,
Two hits ("Both hit" - RAW)
Both apply separate damage due to having resistances etc individually applied.I'm still awaiting the day a cheezemonkey points out that it says "attack from a ranged weapon" and then applies it to all the shots fired and deflects the lot because iterative attacks are part of a full-round "Attack" action. If you emphasise ATTACK over HIT you open the door to that goodness.
Yes, we differ in our translation, since the only use for the word "hit" in DA is to precise that the character doesn't have to choose an attack he wants to deflect before knowing if it will damage him or not. He can automatically deflect one attack as long as the attack results in a hit from a ranged weapon. And manyshot shoots two arrows, from only one attack. Note that I never talked about the fact it could deflect a Rapid Shot arrow, since THIS is another attack by RAW.
A full-round "Attack" action doesn't exist. It's a "full attack" action, clearly saying it allows you to make several attacks during the round instead of only one. Nothing that could be of any use to someone trying to cheese his way to anti-DPR olympics, especially through Manyshot.
A full-round "Attack" action doesn't exist. It's a "full attack" action,
Correct, so I await someone saying they wish to defelect that 'attack', the gross term, as opposed to the series of attacks it entails.
Deflect arrows uses both 'attack' and 'hit' in its description, Manyshot talks in terms of an attack resulting in multiple hits. The fault lies in the description of manyshot.
If Manyshot resolved as a singular set of damage, essentially one 'hit' then I'd be certainly right on board with you, but because it applies each arrow separately for purposes of DR etc, I disagree.
I wonder if it should be clarified and tided in one place or another?
Might be an "Ask James" question...!
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Correct, so I await someone saying they wish to defelect that 'attack', the gross term, as opposed to the series of attacks it entails.
A full-round "Attack" action doesn't exist. It's a "full attack" action,
Well THIS would be really silly. By starting to read the same literal way, Deflect Arrows makes you immune to arrows.
Well THIS would be really silly. By starting to read the same literal way, Deflect Arrows makes you immune to arrows.
Well not ALL arrows of course, just THAT guys, once a round. So you can't then be immune to his friends arrows in the same round, but if we play completely literally we can just ignore one guy attacking us.
Well the whole area control limitation for archers has also gone the way of the dodo as well with the Ultimate Combat “Snap Shot” string of feats….. not only can you threaten an area, you can threaten a 15ft reach area.
The builds are good. The two-handed fighter is a Str build and the Spring Attack duelest made a decision to be more mobile and do less damage.
They were both very effective in our one play test game. The two-hander did some massive damage, and the spring attacker was very slippery.
This weekend will be the first real game with the other 4 PC's.
Still I expect they will do very well because there are no fighters among the other 4 players - except for uncle archer.
I guess I don't see the problem, especially if the 2H fighter is doing well. I've tried optimizing both builds with my limited knowledge, and come up with comparable DPR around 70 for each, with the archer pulling ahead if he has a STR bonus. Am I missing something?
DEX 22 (18 + belt + bumps)
Point Blank Shot (+1 hit +1 dmg)
Deadly Aim (-3 hit +6 dmg)
Rapid Shot (2 attacks, all attacks -2 hit)
Manyshot (extra arrow)
Weapon Training 1 (+1 hit +1 dmg)
Weapon Focus (+1 hit)
Weapon Specialization (+2 dmg)
Enhance Arrows (+1 hit +1 dmg and +1d6 elemental dmg)
Gravity Bow (arrows 2d6)
Totals: -1 hit, +11 dmg, +1d6 elemental dmg
Manyshot: (2d6 + 1d6 + 11) x 2 x .9 = 38.7
Rapid Shot: (2d6 + 1d6 + 11) x .9 = 19.35
Iterative Attack: (2d6 + 1d6 + 11) x .65 = 13.975
Total DPR: 72
STR 22 (+9 dmg with 2H)
Power Attack (-3 hit +9 dmg)
Cleave/Great Cleave (probably at least one extra attack)
Weapon Focus (+1 hit)
Weapon Specialization (+2 dmg)
Weapon Training (+2 hit +2 dmg)
Totals: +22 dmg
Attack + Cleave: (1d10 + 22) x 2 x .95 = 52.25
Iterative Attack: (1d10 + 22) x .7 = 19.25
Total DPR: 71.5
If Manyshot is simply overshadowing Cleave, do what TM said. But honestly I don't see how that could be, because if the fighter is playing tactically he has the potential to get multiple cleaves and overshadow the archer.
Am I missing something?
Yes, you can't cleave if you full attack.
Cleave is actually very situational in Pathfinder. It's a decent feat to give mobility options, but as levels increase, you want to full attack as much as possible.
You'd be shocked how many times I've read those feats and glossed over the first four words. Please tell me I'm not imagining 3.5 cleave was different?
I thought I knew these rules reasonably well, but it seems like every time I clarify something, what I have left just feels broken. Cleave is another "gotcha" feat then. Noted.
Anyway, clearly I have no idea how the fighter is specced, so please disregard my comments.