Is this possible in role playing terms? Can a beautiful character just be that caustic and mean that he/she has has a low charisma score?
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Yes.
Sure, in first or 2ed there used to be a sub-stat called comlyness which was your physical beauty. A very attractive person could certainly be so socialy inept or just plan rude that it would reflect poorly on thier CHA.
I believe so. In Burnt Offerings (RotRL #1) the NPC, Orik Vancaskerkin, is described as "ruggedly handsome" with a CHA score of 8.
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Is this possible in role playing terms? Can a beautiful character just be that caustic and mean that he/she has has a low charisma score?
Perfectly reasonable.
You can have a high CHA "Leper King" who is revered for his strength of spirit and personal magnetism, and you can have a low CHA pretty jerkass who doesn't know how to deal with people.
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+1
Avner in Savage Tide
I say definitely, yes.
Yes you can do that, it is not how you look but also how you act.
Just look at the real world. There are tons of physically attractive people with reprehenible personalities and bad social skills.
And no, let's not name any. I was going to give some examples, but I'm sure any celebrity I would mention would set off someone else's troll button.
Or, as one of my salesmen put it, "There's nothing more unattractive than a hot stripper who looks like she's bored or disgusted to be doing her job."
Yes. End of discussion.
Wow...
There is an NPC in kingmaker... fifth book I believe that has a low charisma but is noted for being beautiful.
As often as Paizo does it -- I don't have a problem if a player does too -- looks are superficial (...to an extent -- don't go look at any of the research that says otherwise okay?).
And honestly when the GM is simply assigning numbers and can place any NPC at any point on any stat he wants to match what he feels it should be he can't really complain when the players don't when they don't have the infinite resources to do so as well.
Absolutely handsome star player but an absolute jerk too that no one likes? I'm down with that.
Ugly (UGLY) person that can get anyone to follow, fear, or respect them? I'm good with that too. When we have UGLY monsters with incredible high charisma scores not being dictated as being "Handsome" or "Beautiful" I don't see why low charisma character have to be ugly.
Absolutely perfectly possible. You can have supermodel looks, but completely fail to use it in any way to your advantage, or somehow else manages to negate that advantage.
Example:
Ugly person with 10 cha, and a total skill of 15 in persuation:
He's ugly, first impression is bad, but he usually makes compelling arguments, so people listen to him.
Supermodel with 10 cha, and a total skill of 15 in persuation:
First impression is alot better, people want to listen to her, maybe she flirts with them as well, but in total her arguments are often somewhat flawed, or people automatically assume she's "pretty but dumb" and give her arguments less weight.
In the end both these character have the same chance getting others to do what they want, for completely different reasons however.
If ugly guy would have blondie's people skills he'd be at a cha of 6 maybe, while she having his could easily be a 14. But so they're both a 10.
Is this possible in role playing terms? Can a beautiful character just be that caustic and mean that he/she has has a low charisma score?
Yes. Charisma does not equate to beauty or ugliness in any shape or form. Notice that Tieflings which are often attributed to being exotically beautiful have an average of 8 Charisma. Night hags have a 19 Charisma and are absolutely hideous. Doppelgangers have a 14 Charisma and lack what most would consider features at all.
Likewise, the Leprous King from Kingdom of Heaven is hideously disfigured and ugly and wears a silver mask, which would in D&D terms provide a +2 circumstance bonus to his social skill checks.
Furthermore, the nail in the coffin is that your Charisma does not change even if your appearance does. If you use a disguise self, alter self, or similar spell in which you can control your physical appearance, your Charisma is not modified in the slightest.
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Joining that nail in the coffin is a stake to the heart of the vampire inside:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's subjective, will vary wildly between the various intelligent beings in a fantasy setting, and no simple numeric score is going to do justice to it.
It's well and good if someone want to put forth the 22 CHA bard as an obvious potential love interest, but that in no way makes a PC wrong for eyeing the more moderate-CHA dwarf barmaid instead. Likewise for NPCs reacting organically to PCs, taking account of the whole package rather than just that single number.
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Joining that nail in the coffin is a stake to the heart of the vampire inside:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's subjective, will vary wildly between the various intelligent beings in a fantasy setting, and no simple numeric score is going to do justice to it.
It's well and good if someone want to put forth the 22 CHA bard as an obvious potential love interest, but that in no way makes a PC wrong for eyeing the more moderate-CHA dwarf barmaid instead. Likewise for NPCs reacting organically to PCs, taking account of the whole package rather than just that single number.
Are you sure that's a dwarf? I don't see a beard....
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Appearance should be up to the player anyway. It is one of those aspects of character that should be left up to the player. If you want to play an attractive character who is caustic and mean, then you should not have to be constricted by Charisma.
I always found the Comeliness ability score a further restriction based on a number. In my games, I tend to keep Charisma divorced from appearance. Admittedly, this has not always been the case, but I agree with Mizake - beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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On the other hand, roleplay should match. If you are roleplaying a character who is charming, vivacious, friendly, and commands respect, and you describe your character as looking impressive and handsome/beautiful... and then you tell me your Charisma score is an 8, I'm going to call foul. It's like playing an 8 Intelligence barbarian and expecting to be able to invent TNT. If you are playing a good-looking character with a low Charisma, you should definitely be roleplaying either an arrogant ass or a shy wallflower.
I always felt that limiting appearance to charisma was a bit unreasonable. In certain parts of the world having some weight is seen as attractive; different people have different views of facial hair; and then there's the case of playing a non-human (a kobold for example). I also agree with Derek, Good social skills and leadership is determined by charisma. Though, a GM could always play off the low charisma character's social graces as coming off as snobbish, rude, or shady.
I try not to equate charisma with physical beauty. When I was rolling up an androgynous bard with charisma 18, I picked Angelica Huston as my model. My husband looked at the glamor shot I chose of her from when she was young and said "You think that accurately represents Charisma 18?" Me, I think that Angelica Huston is absolutely stunning, and is a stellar actress. She's not Liz Taylor in her prime, but that's okay, coz if everyone was Liz Taylor, then no one would be Bettie Davis or Marilyn Monroe, &c, &c.
And yes, ultimately, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've made a cleric with Cha 15 and Con 14, she's chubby, gregarious and flirty. Is 5'2" 120 pounds worth of cleric sexy to you? No, you prefer your gals tall, blond and nordic, or elven for that matter. She could do a flip. She's got strength of will to maintain that your opinion of her physical appearance isn't going to alter her impression of herself, and she knows that she is hot stuff.
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One of the traits in the APG actually is centered around being attractive, and had no CHA restrictions. It gives a bonus to language-dependent spells and diplomacy (I think) if the target could be sexually attracted to you.
Ba-boom. Attractive, 5 CHA dwarf? Totally possible.
EDIT: Upon rereading it, I realized that one interpretation could be that NOBODY would find said 5CHA dwarf attractive, and therefore has a useless trait. Whoops.
One of the traits in the APG actually is centered around being attractive, and had no CHA restrictions. It gives a bonus to language-dependent spells and diplomacy (I think) if the target could be sexually attracted to you.
That trait is hideous to GM for. One thing you don't want to hear over and over is "Am I sexy?" from the guy playing the character with the charming trait before every social roll or spellcasting.
One of the traits in the APG actually is centered around being attractive, and had no CHA restrictions. It gives a bonus to language-dependent spells and diplomacy (I think) if the target could be sexually attracted to you.That trait is hideous to GM for. One thing you don't want to hear over and over is "Am I sexy?" from the guy playing the character with the charming trait before every social roll or spellcasting.
lol
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One of the traits in the APG actually is centered around being attractive, and had no CHA restrictions. It gives a bonus to language-dependent spells and diplomacy (I think) if the target could be sexually attracted to you.That trait is hideous to GM for. One thing you don't want to hear over and over is "Am I sexy?" from the guy playing the character with the charming trait before every social roll or spellcasting.
I ask the DM that before ANY roll already, though! Right after asking how attractive the NPC is.
Is this possible in role playing terms? Can a beautiful character just be that caustic and mean that he/she has has a low charisma score?
Just think of the stereotypical model: insipid, vapid, incable of being any kind of leader but very good looking. Low charisma but beautiful.
Think Shannon in Lost: beautiful, but so obviously spoiled and self-destructive that she rarely gets her way. Even when Boone does stuff for her, he resents it.
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lolOne of the traits in the APG actually is centered around being attractive, and had no CHA restrictions. It gives a bonus to language-dependent spells and diplomacy (I think) if the target could be sexually attracted to you.That trait is hideous to GM for. One thing you don't want to hear over and over is "Am I sexy?" from the guy playing the character with the charming trait before every social roll or spellcasting.
I'm too sexy for my chainmail, too sexy for my chainmail...
Please lock the thread before I post again! Stop me! Aaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
I am not sure that Pretty + low charisma = Must the a jerk.
I have a friend who acts like a jerk all the time, but he has enough charisma that it usually comes off as funny. If I did the exact same things, I would be banned from polite society.
Anyone mention Paris Hilton yet?
You mean the most awesome woman who ever awesomed?
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The best way I've seen to deal with Charisma is to consider it "Ability to impose your will" or "Force of personality". Nothing to do with physical attractiveness or even social acceptability. That half-orc sorcerer with a 30 Charisma might be hideously ugly, never bathe, and wear a dead cat for a hat, but if he orders you to move, you're going to start moving before you even realize you are (game mechanics aside). It's the only explanation for why UMD is a charisma skill.
Kelly LeBrock (1985-1987) and I have a message for you people: Don't hate us because we're beautiful. Why does Comeliness have to lead to so much hate?
Sure. Just play the character as really socially awkward. Farting in public, making rude comments, stuff like that. We've all met these people in real life. They're attractive until they move or speak.
One of the traits in the APG actually is centered around being attractive, and had no CHA restrictions. It gives a bonus to language-dependent spells and diplomacy (I think) if the target could be sexually attracted to you.
Ba-boom. Attractive, 5 CHA dwarf? Totally possible.
EDIT: Upon rereading it, I realized that one interpretation could be that NOBODY would find said 5CHA dwarf attractive, and therefore has a useless trait. Whoops.
I think that "could be sexually attracted to you" refers to are they either the opposite gender (or the same gender and gay), and what race are they? For instance, an ogre probably wouldn't be attracted to an elf, no matter how pretty (in fact, prettier may be worse for dealing with an ogre), whereas humans and elves would be more inclined to listen to you if you are attractive even if your charisma is low.
Like most traits, it is a relatively conditional modifier. However, most of your diplomacy checks are probably going to be against the common humanoid races.