Paizo and the customer

[theroc]

After years of watching gaming companies evolve, including Paizo, and being in marketing by career trade, I have been impressed by Paizo’s interaction and connection to their consumer.

I need to first make a disclaimer…I don’t play Pathfinder. I have most of the books, because I am also a game collector. But I don’t play Pathfinder itself. I still dabble in all editions of D&D except 3.x. Still play some 1st, a lot of 2nd, and primarily 4th now (which I think is a great system). But out of our gaming group, 3.x is the only version we dislike enough to not play it. That doesn’t mean I think Pathfinder isn’t a great quality product…it absolutely is, which is why I own so many books just for the read. I just don’t like that specific version of D&D that it was spawned from.

That said…I follow the Paizo message boards just because it is a joy to see a gaming company so in touch with their customers. To gamers, many of us have an attachment to the designers/artists as much as the game itself. On Paizo’s website, these guys are frequent posters, jumping into conversations and giving feedback, mingling with the customer from designer to CEO. And I have watched it work. These guys really give up the time and you can see their interest in what consumer opinion is. By contrast, on the WotC site, you can beg and beg for feedback from someone within the company, and they will never show up. As if they are too good to mingle with the common gamer. As a result, the tone is completely different between the sites.

Paizo has done things mostly right all along the way. Right from the start, they implemented the huge playtest of the Pathfinder rules over the web. Immediately, fans suddenly felt ‘ownership’ and a stake in the new game. They were part of it and felt pride in it. Naturally when the product released, it already had a customer base. By contrast, consumers are usually blindsided and surprised by a WotC release.

The only thing I wish Paizo did better was to back off a bit on leading the “edition wars” charge, which you can see fostered in the message boards. We are all gamers, and hopefully we can get along in our hobby.

But overall, Paizo listens to the consumer, communicates to them, and responds accordingly. These guys just do it right. Wish more of the games I play were owned by Paizo so they would get the same support, and look forward to other products or games they release outside the Pathfinder realm. I just had to take the time to express my gratitude and respect for a company that just does it right.

[Vic Wertz]

Thanks for your observations!

theroc wrote:

The only thing I wish Paizo did better was to back off a bit on leading the “edition wars” charge...

I think you'll find it's virtually impossible to find any comment by any Paizo employee on any forum that foments the edition wars. We do have many community members who have clearly taken sides and express them on our forums; because we value free expression (within reason) we allow those types of posts to stand—on either side—as long as they don't get out of hand, but to be frank, everyone at Paizo would really rather people spend more time talking about the games they want to play than the ones they don't.

Feel free to direct people to my blog post from August 12, 2009.

[theroc]

Vic, I now regret even bringing up the "edition wars" comment...because I didn't want that to detract from my intention of complimenting Paizo on doing things right with the customer. It is very noticeable.

I had not seen your blog post from before on "edition wars"...thank for linking it and helping lead the charge to steer the gaming industry away from internal strife. Again...just something Paizo is doing right.

It is so nice to go to events like Gen Con and see the camaraderie between gamers. Too bad so many turn into trolls on the internet.

My point was just that...awesome job...and I wish you guys were in charge of the other RPGs I play, too. :-)

[Vic Wertz]

theroc wrote:

Vic, I now regret even bringing up the "edition wars" comment...because I didn't want that to detract from my intention of complimenting Paizo on doing things right with the customer. It is very noticeable.

No worries—I appreciated hearing what you had to say!

[Heine Stick]

The difference between what Paizo has going on and the rest of the industry is that I don't feel like a paying customer. I feel like I'm a part of it (it being the Pathfinder phenomenon). From the public playtests to the huge amount of time spent on the forums communicating with their fanbase, to the top-quality material they publish, and the above-and-beyond customer service, Paizo makes me feel like I'm more than just a customer.

Then there's PaizoCon, their VERY generous Community Use Policy, their selfless plugging of 3rd party publishers through the store blog, well the list just goes on, doesn't it?

Does this mean that Paizo can do no wrong? Of course not. Sometimes a product is subpar compared to Paizo's usual standards and sometimes a product order is messed up. But while no one's perfect, Paizo and their approach to everything isn't too far off.

[Aaron Bitman]

And in fact, Paizo plugs 4E materials that they sell in their store.

Really, how can we HELP but respect these people? It seems like every time Paizo makes a decision with which I disagree - and Paizo made MANY such decisions - some Paizo staff member (typically James Jacobs) explains on these boards exactly why that decision was made, usually for some artistic reason. I would STILL disagree with the decision, but would respect Paizo for what it's trying to do. I would feel certain that Paizo didn't do it for money reasons, because when that is the case - when, for example, Paizo chooses not to make a certain product because it doesn't sell - Paizo frankly admits it.

(And I would venture to guess that Paizo would be quite pleased if you were, for example, to use Golarion books in your AD&D games.)

[Aaron Bitman]

EDIT: ...or 4E games.

[Gorbacz]

Only three companies ever managed to win my loyalty as a customer. Nokia, Paizo and Valve. Sadly, last week Nokia lost me to Samsung, but that happens when you make craptastic business decisions.

Paizo is the only company which has precedence over anything else in the RPG market for me, and the only one whose products I buy "in blind". Somewhere between the product quality, custserv service, "not being jerks" and developer relations with community, they score big time.

[Matthew Winn]

My favorite part about Paizo is the fact that their unique business practices, especially the ones people thought were a terrible idea, are infecting the industry.

The open playtests seems to be creating some sort of revolution in gaming. From Green Ronin's Mutants and Masterminds 3e playtest to Dresmscarred Press's playtest of Psionics Expanded.

The most successful 3rd party publishers for Pathfinder are the ones you see on the boards here frequently. They've taken their cue for Paizo and realize that by injecting themselves in the fan-community, people feel as if they have stock in the company (emotional, not financial, though I would definitely jump on that train as unlikely as it is).

Furthering that thought, communication with the customer has created a massive community (as Aaron commented on above). That community doesn't just include the customer, but has taken the fine line between publisher and customer (with third party publishers as some sort of strange hybrid off to the side that no one talks about) and created a sort of fuzzy venn-diagram with rather indistinct lines. Paizo staffers write for third party companies started by fans who started their own companies, all with Paizo's blessing. Paizo pays attention to the fan-base and has been known to hire the cream of the community crop (see Lilith and Mark Moreland)

This last part leads to Heine's assessment that the only real difference between Paizo staff and anyone in the community is the money flow, which many of us don't even really notice.

*standing ovation for Paizo and the community at large, and especially Theroc for his kind and well thought out essay*

[Cosmo]

I opened this thread thinking that I was going to find an issue to correct or speak about. Now I feel all warm and fuzzy. :)

[Dragnmoon]

Cosmo wrote:

Now I feel all warm and fuzzy. :)

GenCon is around the corner, you might want to see a Doctor about the odd feeling you are having. Would not want a repeat of last year..;)

[thunderspirit]

Cosmo wrote:

Now I feel all warm and fuzzy. :)

Another glass of wine or three will do that to ya. X-D

[Steve Geddes]

Gorbacz wrote:

Paizo is the only company which has precedence over anything else in the RPG market for me, and the only one whose products I buy "in blind".

I agree. I've even started expecting to like those products I expect I'm not going to like.

[0gre]

Cosmo wrote:

I opened this thread thinking that I was going to find an issue to correct or speak about. Now I feel all warm and fuzzy. :)

Maybe came in expecting to tell someone you didn't give a chainsaw?

[Lilith]

Matthew Winn wrote:

Paizo pays attention to the fan-base and has been known to hire the cream of the community crop (see Lilith and Mark Moreland).

D'aww...Shucks! *shuffles feet, blushes*

[jocundthejolly]

theroc wrote:

Vic, I now regret even bringing up the "edition wars" comment...because I didn't want that to detract from my intention of complimenting Paizo on doing things right with the customer. It is very noticeable.

I had not seen your blog post from before on "edition wars"...thank for linking it and helping lead the charge to steer the gaming industry away from internal strife. Again...just something Paizo is doing right.

It is so nice to go to events like Gen Con and see the camaraderie between gamers. Too bad so many turn into trolls on the internet.

My point was just that...awesome job...and I wish you guys were in charge of the other RPGs I play, too. :-)

I don't know how Paizo people really feel about 4E, but they are at least smart enough to realize that it's terrible for the industry if the flagship game fails. Some fans seem to want Wizards to fail, but if you care about RPGing at all you must understand that what's good for Wizards and D&D is good for everyone, and what's bad is bad.

[Weaponbreaker]

Cosmo wrote:

I opened this thread thinking that I was going to find an issue to correct or speak about. Now I feel all warm and fuzzy. :)

As you should! Cosmo is the bestes, and all companies should be blessed with a Cosmo.

[Chef's Slaad]

But, please remember, no more than 1 Cosmo.

Too may of them in close proximity could cause a catastrophic chain reaction that will level a city.

[Ashanderai]

Chef's Slaad wrote:

But, please remember, no more than 1 Cosmo.

Too may of them in close proximity could cause a catastrophic chain reaction that will level a city.

Does that mean this is the same Cosmo as on that Fairly God Parents show my kids watch? You know, the one with green hair, a wand, fairy wings, and a little crowny thing...?

[Ashanderai]

I, too, must add my praise and appreciation for Paizo, its staff, and its products. If Paizo wasn't as good as they are at what they do I would not subscribe to as many product lines as I do, if any at all. I didn't even subscribe to Dragon when it was around and supporting the games I cared about back then.

[Dark_Mistress]

jocundthejolly wrote:

theroc wrote:

Vic, I now regret even bringing up the "edition wars" comment...because I didn't want that to detract from my intention of complimenting Paizo on doing things right with the customer. It is very noticeable.

I had not seen your blog post from before on "edition wars"...thank for linking it and helping lead the charge to steer the gaming industry away from internal strife. Again...just something Paizo is doing right.

It is so nice to go to events like Gen Con and see the camaraderie between gamers. Too bad so many turn into trolls on the internet.

My point was just that...awesome job...and I wish you guys were in charge of the other RPGs I play, too. :-)

I don't know how Paizo people really feel about 4E, but they are at least smart enough to realize that it's terrible for the industry if the flagship game fails. Some fans seem to want Wizards to fail, but if you care about RPGing at all you must understand that what's good for Wizards and D&D is good for everyone, and what's bad is bad.

While I don't want WotC to fail, I don't agree it would be bad for the industry. It would only be bad for the industry if no one else took their place. IF and that's a massive if, they did fail. I think one of several companies might step up to take over the top spot, with Paizo being at the top of that list.

[Matthew Morris]

Chef's Slaad wrote:

But, please remember, no more than 1 Cosmo.

Too may of them in close proximity could cause a catastrophic chain reaction that will level a city.

And don't feed them after Midnight, or get them wet.

Oh wait, that's Gizmo.

Aside: It is strange calling Paizo and hearing "This is Cosmo." I honestly thought it was a screen name like my "The Livewire" or "Balinok"

[gbonehead]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Chef's Slaad wrote:

But, please remember, no more than 1 Cosmo.

Too may of them in close proximity could cause a catastrophic chain reaction that will level a city.

And don't feed them after Midnight, or get them wet.

Oh wait, that's Gizmo.

Aside: It is strange calling Paizo and hearing "This is Cosmo." I honestly thought it was a screen name like my "The Livewire" or "Balinok"

I thought Matthew Morris was a screen name and figured your real name was something like Balinok. Huh.

[Zuxius]

Good job slapping that one down Vic. I do appreciate the comments expressed towards Paizo. They really put in the work to support it.

I could say more but Vic said it all. I think we all agree that getting a new generation of "out of console" gamers helps everyone, market shares aside.

[KaeYoss]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Chef's Slaad wrote:

But, please remember, no more than 1 Cosmo.

Too may of them in close proximity could cause a catastrophic chain reaction that will level a city.

And don't feed them after Midnight, or get them wet.

Oh wait, that's Gizmo.

Aside: It is strange calling Paizo and hearing "This is Cosmo." I honestly thought it was a screen name like my "The Livewire" or "Balinok"

Yeah. And whenever I read the name, I imagine this really tall guy with a crazy hair-do having insane business ideas or tumbling all around.

"I have a whole new idea for my apartment: Levels!"

Though levels make sense in Pathfinder.

[DM Wellard]

These boards certainly have a more 'family' feel to them than those of any other game company..

[Shadewest]

To me it feels more like the clubhouse. We're all gamers, even the Paizo staff and we're all just hanging out, taking about and even playing games. Very relaxed. I certainly don't get that sense from WotC. There, it feels like the mods are behaving like camp counselors and the general public is the kids. If a real WotC employee posts something there, we're expected to be star struck. Paizo remembers they're gamers first. They're not the only company that does, but they get more of my respect because they're one of them.

[Azure_Zero]

Shadewest wrote:

To me it feels more like the clubhouse. We're all gamers, even the Paizo staff and we're all just hanging out, taking about and even playing games. Very relaxed. I certainly don't get that sense from WotC. There, it feels like the mods are behaving like camp counselors and the general public is the kids. If a real WotC employee posts something there, we're expected to be star struck. Paizo remembers they're gamers first. They're not the only company that does, but they get more of my respect because they're one of them.

Here here

[SCSi]

Shadewest wrote:

To me it feels more like the clubhouse. We're all gamers, even the Paizo staff and we're all just hanging out, taking about and even playing games. Very relaxed. I certainly don't get that sense from WotC. There, it feels like the mods are behaving like camp counselors and the general public is the kids. If a real WotC employee posts something there, we're expected to be star struck. Paizo remembers they're gamers first. They're not the only company that does, but they get more of my respect because they're one of them.

Totally agree.

The thing that really makes me want to give Paizo a buttload of cash every month is that they dont just look at the "big picture" of making gobs of cash and making a name for themselves. Too many times these retailers/manufactures dont really care if they piss off a customer, because they know that there will be another one to replace them. Thats not the case here.

Im sure if I was wronged by Paizo and had a legit serious complaint, I'm sure that either Vic or Lisa would step in to help smooth things out. Thats after the CS team exhausted every other option to make me a happy customer, probably even to the point of eating the cost of a product they sent me that I was unhappy/had a problem with (But since Cosmo shaved, his coolness factor took a nosedive ;) ) . You just dont see that anymore.

Lets face it. We're all gamers, we all have great interest in a hobby that gets sideway glances and curious looks from people who know nothing about tabletop ("You're 32 and still play those dice games?") so regardless if you like 4th ed, 2nd ed, Pathfinder, Shadowrun (See reasons on table 144 and chart on page 432), etc there is a definite feeling of comrade here.

So I show my appreciation to the Paizo staff for what they do by buying their stuff, making smart-ass remarks on here, and forcing my players to release their death-grip on the v3.5 PHB and move to a more sophisticated and streamlined system. Now trying to convince my "You bought MORE nerd books and MORE dice" wife is a completely different story. ;)

[James Wilber aka The Magus]

After meeting the Paizo staff at this year's GenCon I think we need to add one thing. Not only are they in touch with their fans and think about their customers, they do it with the highest level of professionalism I've ever seen in the gaming industry, or just about any industry. They deliver what they promise, and never disparage others.

[Matthew Morris]

James Wilber aka The Magus wrote:

After meeting the Paizo staff at this year's GenCon I think we need to add one thing. Not only are they in touch with their fans and think about their customers, they do it with the highest level of professionalism I've ever seen in the gaming industry, or just about any industry. They deliver what they promise, and never disparage others.

What 'got me' was at Origins years ago I was talking w/Lisa and she was talking about how she was looking forward to submitting things to be included in an AP. My brain just kind of went, "Huh. She goes through the same submission rejection process we do. No "I'm the CEO, put it in there" from her. Coolness."