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I've been looking over poisons and I'm trying to figure out if they can be viable to build a character around. Any insight would be appreciated.
- For the first few levels, they seem OK, since most have middling DCs. The costs, however, seem prohibitive, especially for low level characters or a low fantasy setting (in which you'd expect poison to be more useful). Are there any poisons that are useful later on?
- Outside of Rogue and Alchemist class features, are there any ways to alter poison use to get more bang for your buck?
- There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the prices. For instance, Deathblade costs 1800 gp, does 1d3 Con damage for 6 rounds, with a DC of 20. Wyvern Poison costs 3000 gp, does 1d4 Con damage for 6 rounds, with a DC of 17. Is the possibility of an average of 3 extra Con damage really worth a -3 hit to DC and 1200 extra gp? What seems to be the rationale behind the pricing?
- I won't even get into the mess of crafting poisons.
First up, look up the rules for poison stacking. Multiple doses of poison do stack. So if I hit someone with 3 arrows coated with Deathblade, and the DC goes up to 24, and the duration would be 12 rounds.
As far as the cost, craft(alchemy) is the only way to go. Remember that crafting mundane items is 1/3 the normal cost. So crafting your own deathblade would cost 600.
Crafting your own poison also keeps you from having to go out on the black market, since most societies frown on poison sellers.
I am looking at playing a good character who uses poison. I am going to be focusing on injury poisons that cause unconsciousness as those poisons are basically a save or die and target fort saves.
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First up, look up the rules for poison stacking. Multiple doses of poison do stack. So if I hit someone with 3 arrows coated with Deathblade, and the DC goes up to 24, and the duration would be 12 rounds.
Yeah, I'm aware of the poison stacking rule. Doesn't do any good if the target makes it's first save, though. Also, this gets prohibitively expensive.
As far as the cost, craft(alchemy) is the only way to go. Remember that crafting mundane items is 1/3 the normal cost. So crafting your own deathblade would cost 600.
That would be nice, if the core crafting rules didn't mean that this would take 5 weeks (assuming 20, the minimum required, on the Craft (Alchemy) check. One use of poison every month or so is OK as a contingency, but not for a dedicated character concept.
I am looking at playing a good character who uses poison. I am going to be focusing on injury poisons that cause unconsciousness as those poisons are basically a save or die and target fort saves.
That sounds cool. What other unconsciousness injury poisons are there besides drow poison and blue whinnis? Those two are absurdly cheap, but also have low DCs.
Poisons can be worthwhile, yes, but you've really got to make an effort of it. Here are a couple pointers (ignoring the alchemist/rogue option you mentioned):
Step 1: Lower your enemy's saves and increase your DCs
It's no secret that poison DCs are distressingly low. Your best bet to get a poison to stick is to lower your enemy's saving throw before applying a dose. After that, you'll need to raise the DC of your poisons.
- Clerics, Druids, and Rangers all have the ability to pick up a camel as an animal companion. While camels seem lame, they've got a couple things going for them. First, they have a ranged touch attack that sickens for 1d4 rounds (-2 saves). Second, animal companions can be built up to use Dazzling Display on every enemy within 30' to shake them (-2 saves). Third, they're mounts!
- Several spells can help boost DCs and lower saves. Pernicious Poison (UM) specifically does this, but any spell that lowers saves directly or by status effect (sicken, shaken, ability penalty) will do the trick.
Step 2: Apply lots of doses!
The second part of making poison effective is getting more than one dose into your enemy. While this has the added effect of raising the DC, that won't happen until you can get the poison to stick.
- Multiple attacks per round is a good way to get poisons applied to your enemy. Disposable thrown ammunition, multiple attacks per round (particularly through two weapon fighting), or naturally venomous attacks all do the trick.
- The Advanced Players Guide added a new spell that's excellent for poisoners: Accelerate Poison. It reduces the duration to half and double the frequency. In short, you make two saves per round/minute and take double damage. This is gold for the poisoner, and is available to Druids, Rangers, and Sorcerers/Wizards. It's also a level 2 spell, so it's easy to put into a wand, scroll, or even a blade oil.
Hope that helps at all.
First up, look up the rules for poison stacking. Multiple doses of poison do stack. So if I hit someone with 3 arrows coated with Deathblade, and the DC goes up to 24, and the duration would be 12 rounds.Yeah, I'm aware of the poison stacking rule. Doesn't do any good if the target makes it's first save, though. Also, this gets prohibitively expensive.
As far as the cost, craft(alchemy) is the only way to go. Remember that crafting mundane items is 1/3 the normal cost. So crafting your own deathblade would cost 600.That would be nice, if the core crafting rules didn't mean that this would take 5 weeks (assuming 20, the minimum required, on the Craft (Alchemy) check. One use of poison every month or so is OK as a contingency, but not for a dedicated character concept.
You can increase the crafting DC by 10 to decrease the time. Also, look up the spell Crafter's Fortune for a +5 to the check. A full lab is +2 and, you can also craft a wonderous item to give you a +5 to craft(alchemy) for 2500 gold, just like the cloak of elvenkind. At level 5 with a +3 int mod, you would be looking at 5 ranks +3 int +2 alchemy lab +5 magic item +5 crafter's fortune = +20 bonus. You could take a 10 and hit a 30.
This takes you from 20x20 sp per week = 40 gp to 30x30 sp per weak 90 gold. Note, that would be if you are crafting deathblade at level 5, if you want to craft something weaker you could craft that a lot faster.
That sounds cool. What other unconsciousness injury poisons are there besides drow poison and blue whinnis? Those two are absurdly cheap, but also have low DCs.
I am looking at playing a good character who uses poison. I am going to be focusing on injury poisons that cause unconsciousness as those poisons are basically a save or die and target fort saves.
I am going anchemist, so I will be combining multiple doses of weaker poisons.
One of the bigger problems with poisons in general is that there really should be a "formula" that gives you multiple levels of the same poison. Weak blue whinnis, Strong blue Whinnis. Luckly, the rules specifically state that the list of poisons is not exhaustive, and I have a DM who will work with me on developing new poisons.
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Also look into picking up the Master Alchemist (APG) feat at 5th level. This is Paizo's answer to the Master Craftsman for Craft (Alchemy). I think it would help you considerably.
A player of mine was looking into becoming a poisoner, but decided that 12th level was a little late to be delving into that focus.
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You can increase the crafting DC by 10 to decrease the time. Also, look up the spell Crafter's Fortune for a +5 to the check. A full lab is +2 and, you can also craft a wonderous item to give you a +5 to craft(alchemy) for 2500 gold, just like the cloak of elvenkind. At level 5 with a +3 int mod, you would be looking at 5 ranks +3 int +2 alchemy lab +5 magic item +5 crafter's fortune = +20 bonus. You could take a 10 and hit a 30.
This takes you from 20x20 sp per week = 40 gp to 30x30 sp per weak 90 gold. Note, that would be if you are crafting deathblade at level 5, if you want to craft something weaker you could craft that a lot faster.
Cool, this is looking much more feasible. I also just learned about the master alchemist feat, which lets you craft extra doses equal to your int mod in the same time (normal extra cost per dose). It also turns the sp in the crafting calculation to gp, and gives a +2 bonus on top of that. So adding that in, this level 5 crafter could make 30x32 gp progress toward deathblade per week. Assuming an int mod of 3, this would yield 3 doses of deathblade in 2 weeks.
That's 137 gold worth of poison per day, so you could make 3 doses per day of Blue Whinnis. Raise your int mod and it gets even better.
Edit: Ninjaed by Aeshurra.
Alchemist is by far and away your best bet. If you use the Ultimate Magic variant that gets Sneak Attack in place of Bombs, you can even be a legitimate threat in melee combat beyond your poison use.
With Master Alchemist and the Alchemist bonus to Craft: Alchemy checks, at 5th level you should be pushing +20 to the check, can craft it in half the time and your check equals gold instead of silver and can make a number of doses equal to your Int Mod., that means you should be able to crank 3-5 doses of poison every 3 days or so for something like Purple Wyrm Poison (DC 24 1d3 Str per round for 6 rounds, 2 saves)
DC 24x30=720 gp/week -1/2 time, for 3.5 days or 28 hours of work
At 6th level, it becomes even nastier with Sticky Poison discovery, now each dose of poison you make is good for multiple hits.
otherwise, if your GM is cool with 3.5 products, there are all of two poison related feats in the Complete Adventurer I think, and really they ain't worth it, but there you go. Now, if your GM is really cool, there are some great poison feats in the Dark Sun 3.5 web-book for equipment I think, they are all bard feats (because Bards are the poison masters of the world) but from what I remember are pretty balanced.
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I like drow poison a lot. The DC is low but it's dirt cheap (25gp crafted). I look at it this way, even if the creature has ridiculous fort you have a bare minimum 1 in 20 chance of taking them out of the fight on any given shot you hit with.
Concentrate poison unfortunately only lasts an hour but multiple hits in a single round increases the DC with each hit so even a relatively low DC poison can be formidable if you hit a creature 3 times in a round.
As for poison pricing, it's largely based on the ability it damages.
CON poisons are the most valuable because they attack an ability and hit points both. CON poisons are also the only poisons that become more and more difficult to resist as you take damage.
Strength poisons are nice against low strength creatures. If you hit a 10 strength wizard with 3 doses of purple worm poison (DC 24 save/ 1d3 str damage/ 700gp) he is unlikely to recover and will drop after 2-3 rounds.
One more cheap oddity...
Giant Wasps poison is a fairly high DC, dexterity poison. If you ever fight a huge dragon or other very tough but clumsy creature, you have a solid chance of depleting his dexterity with this before you deplete his hit points.
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So, running up the bonuses for a Gnome Alchemist with 16 Int, I get:
5 ranks
3 int
2 racial
5 class
5 Crafter's Fortune
2 Master Alchemist
3 Skill Focus
For a total of 25. If the GM allows you a magic item with a +5, you can bring this to 30.
Assuming no magic item, this character could craft 35*DC gp worth of poison per week, or 5*DC per day, and then double this with the alchemist class feature. And get three doses for every craft check. So for a few poisons:
Blue Whinnis - 1 day
Shadow Essence - 1 day
Purple Worm - 3 days
Deathblade - 5 days
Wyvern Poison - 10 days
Tears of Death - 22 days
All in all, not bad.
if you can grab a wand of Pernicious Poison, even better, -4 to save vs. Poison with no Save is a must for the poisoner.
I'm currently running a witch/alchemist poisoner and once I set up a target with that and maybe an evil eye, its Blue Whinnis time! Stab the next guy with some sticky Purple Wyrm poison and watch the DPR fall (I fell dirty for using that term)
Really I wish there was some way of getting the Rogue Poisoner ability for the Alchemist where you can change the vector of a poison, seems right up their alley and adds a whole new level to the poisoning game.
First, they have a ranged touch attack that sickens for 1d4 rounds (-2 saves). Second, animal companions can be built up to use Dazzling Display on every enemy within 30' to shake them (-2 saves). Third, they're mounts!
Fourth, you started a reign of terror and death using a camel. Just that is worthwhile!
Awesome. I applaud you sir.
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Or you could just play a Witch with the hexes Cauldron and Poison Steep.
Every day with one hours work you can create 1 pound of Poisoned food stuff that has a scaling DC (equal to 10 +1/2 witch level +int bonus) that does 1D3 con damage for 6 rounds.
Now the fun trick is this works with the poison stacking rules so make the a couple sandwiches every day (2 slices of bread, 2 pieces of vegetables and 3 slices of meat).
Steep this sandwich (or 3) each morning and when you see your target hit it with a Ill Omen (familiar with a wand) and Beguiling Gift and hand it to em.
Assuming the same Gnome build from above:
DC 27 Fort save or suffer 1D3 Con per round for 15+ rounds.
Superior to any poison you can get and costs under a silver piece to make.
Once you've run out of those you can brew other poisons (be careful you lack poison use) and do it just as fast as the Alchemist.
The same gnome Alchemist presented above as a Witch
5 ranks
3 int
2 racial
5 Crafter's Fortune
2 Master Alchemist
3 Skill Focus
4 Cauldron Hex
For a total of 24. If the GM allows you a magic item with a +5, you can bring this to 29.
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Poisons, unless you really put a lot of effort into it, are still basically worthless in Pathfinder. Here's an example why:
I like drow poison a lot. The DC is low but it's dirt cheap (25gp crafted). I look at it this way, even if the creature has ridiculous fort you have a bare minimum 1 in 20 chance of taking them out of the fight on any given shot you hit with.
Concentrate poison unfortunately only lasts an hour but multiple hits in a single round increases the DC with each hit so even a relatively low DC poison can be formidable if you hit a creature 3 times in a round.
As for poison pricing, it's largely based on the ability it damages.
CON poisons are the most valuable because they attack an ability and hit points both. CON poisons are also the only poisons that become more and more difficult to resist as you take damage.
Strength poisons are nice against low strength creatures. If you hit a 10 strength wizard with 3 doses of purple worm poison (DC 24 save/ 1d3 str damage/ 700gp) he is unlikely to recover and will drop after 2-3 rounds.
-- The first question that comes to mind is: "How weak do you have to be to be able to hit a wizard seven-plus times with ordinary, non-poisoned weapons and not kill them anyway?"
-- The first question that comes to mind is: "How weak do you have to be to be able to hit a wizard seven-plus times with ordinary, non-poisoned weapons and not kill them anyway?"
Three times, not 7+. Also, that's for a completely unfocused character - much like how a wand of _various attack spells_ suck. A DC24 save is quite hard, even at mid levels, and if you hit him three times, it's a DC 28 save!
With just a single feat, you can reasonably craft the poisons yourself in a week or so, for 700 gp.Say you're 8th level. You've got 33k WBL, so 700 gp is noteworthy, but not a really big deal.
A level 10 wizard (CR9 encounter) will likely have +8 or so fort (+3 base, +4 con, +1 magic), so basically:
He has to roll 16 or better to save against the first poison. 75% chance of 1d3 strength damage. If that succeeds, second dose of poison has 85% chance of 1d3 damage. If that succeeds, 95% for 1d3 more damage. And that's only the first turn. 60% chance for average of 6 str damage. Chance to completely avoid is only 1.5%.
Also remember even before it kills him, it'll likely cause encumbrance (unless ant hauled) and thus damage his speed severely.
It isn't THE MOST AWESOME EVAH but it's not in any way worthless, especially not seeing as this is a guy who's only spent a single feat on it and it's otherwise "just money". And it's available at decent to great range.
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60% chance for average of 6 str damage. Chance to completely avoid is only 1.5%. Also remember even before it kills him, it'll likely cause encumbrance (unless ant hauled) and thus damage his speed severely.
He's just gonna Teleport out and come back later with a new plan.
Waste of gold.
(Granted: you could beat a module wizard saddled with a stupid spell selection.)