|
I am an old LG vet looking to dip back into organized play via Pathfinder, and I'm intrigued by the summoner class. I have no interest in making a pouncing/rending quadruped or a large/slamming/pushing biped. Just an old Shaonti spirit with a spear that follows my character around and natters at him and gets into fights.
However, a little board-browsing seems to show that eidolons are being pimped out to the extreme, and that new player with summoner is often seen as a cheese monkey / loose rules interpreter / no fun. I don't want to make a bad impression, nor do I want to bring in a character that I think is interesting, but that everyone else has seen a hundred times already.
So, some advice from you regular PFS players. Do you roll your eyes when a player brings a summoner to the table?
And on a side note, if not: the rules are ambiguous about how to set up a biped eidolon to use a weapon. It seems like the spirit of the rules is that you'd have to use the 2-point weapon training evolution; but by the letter of the rules, couldn't you just use the eidolon's bonus feat on simple, martial, or exotic weapon proficiency? Or is that just the kind of cheesy thinking that causes the aforementioned eye-rolling?
Thanks for any thoughts & comments!
As long as you are not a halfling riding your Eidlon, you should be ok . Or if you do ride you Eidlon, do not fight with the GM when he asks you to make a concentration check on spells.
As far as weapons go, yes as far as I am aware for your eidlon to use weapons you have to use the 2-point training, but you can get a feat called extra evolutions which will give you an extra point so it is not such a hit. That feat is in the Ultimate Magic.
|
During Season 0 I witnessed tables with three summoning spellcasters. Two wizards (Diviner and Conjurer) and one druid. All combats became no-brainers and it was a miracle if the other PCs had a chance to do something.
I generally dislike summoned creatures and animal companions, but that's my personal problem. When it comes to summoners, one could say I look at them with an evil eye. Synthesists, though, are ok in my book.
|
|
I think every class can be played to cheese monkey extremes. Still, plenty of players don't cheese their characters.
The summoners that I most appreciate are the ones with a theme. I created an Ulfen summoner with a wolf-like and raven-like eidolon called Howlfur. I have emulated a wolf with the Eidolon's evolutions (and deliberately avoided pounce). I think of the Eidolon as an extension of the character, but with its own identity.
I like the Eidolon idea that you mention of the old Shoanti spirit that follows you. I presume that the character is Shoanti too. Sounds cool. See how it goes.
I don't roll my eyes when a summoner joins the table, but if one is cheesed out then I'll roll my eyes just like i would with a cheesed out character of any other class.
I don't know the answer to the weapon feat or evolution question.
|
During Season 0 I witnessed tables with three summoning spellcasters. Two wizards (Diviner and Conjurer) and one druid. All combats became no-brainers and it was a miracle if the other PCs had a chance to do something.
I generally dislike summoned creatures and animal companions, but that's my personal problem. When it comes to summoners, one could say I look at them with an evil eye. Synthesists, though, are ok in my book.
Did the DM take advantage of the fact summoning is a full round action?
|
I am an old LG vet looking to dip back into organized play via Pathfinder, and I'm intrigued by the summoner class. I have no interest in making a pouncing/rending quadruped or a large/slamming/pushing biped. Just an old Shaonti spirit with a spear that follows my character around and natters at him and gets into fights.
However, a little board-browsing seems to show that eidolons are being pimped out to the extreme, and that new player with summoner is often seen as a cheese monkey / loose rules interpreter / no fun. I don't want to make a bad impression, nor do I want to bring in a character that I think is interesting, but that everyone else has seen a hundred times already.
So, some advice from you regular PFS players. Do you roll your eyes when a player brings a summoner to the table?
And on a side note, if not: the rules are ambiguous about how to set up a biped eidolon to use a weapon. It seems like the spirit of the rules is that you'd have to use the 2-point weapon training evolution; but by the letter of the rules, couldn't you just use the eidolon's bonus feat on simple, martial, or exotic weapon proficiency? Or is that just the kind of cheesy thinking that causes the aforementioned eye-rolling?
Thanks for any thoughts & comments!
The summoner class as-is offers a lot to people to want to play the numbers and create something rediculously cheesy.
It looks like you are looking at the other aspect that gets lost a LOT with summoners. You have a cool RP idea.
Many people will assume the first, so when you show them you are the second, you should get the pleasure of watching them eat their words if they had made an issue of it :P
As a judge, I hate my one player's Summoner. To be more specific, I hate his eidolon. He does the most damage and has a rediculously high AC. I audited the character and he created him correctly, he just knew how to crunch the right numbers. I can't fault him for that even though he has made almost every combat rediculously easy.
|
I do play a summoner - a gnome with a small Eidolon that has evolutions like climb and smell as well as unusual skills. Add a reduce person spell on the Eidolon and the stealth you reach is incredible.
Interestingly - this isn't my favourite character and just being back from PaizoCon UK I didn't see a single Summoner on any of my tables.
Should you expect some eye-rolling. I think it depends on the group you play with. If one or two players min-maxed their Eidolon as damage dealers in your area than you are likely greeted with contempt.
But don't be discouraged. Don't judge the community by the boards. So far everyone seemed very welcome. If you read about extremes here than it's because these are the issues people feel strongly about.
So go ahead - have an open mind - and don't be discouraged if your very first encounter has a few people rolling eyes. There is a good chance it doesn't happen. - that you post here ahead shows you are aware of issues. That on it's own is the most important step to be accepted.
Welcome and have fun !!!
Thod
I've played at 25+ tables and I've never seen a single Summoner (and at most one or two characters designed around Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally). So I can't speak from experience.
In a general sense, when I see a player hyper-focusing on a particular tactic (often using grey areas of the rules), I might roll my eyes a little bit, but it doesn't really bother me. But I'm the kind of player who gets more enjoyment out of an interesting story than a hard challenge.
|
|
I play one of those cheesed-out summoners you've read about, so I don't roll my eyes when I see another summoner join the table. :)
It's also acceptable to use one of your eidolon's feats to gain weapon proficiency, rather than your precious evolution points; the down side is you're stuck with the feat for good. Note this advice comes from one of the eyeroll-inducing summoners, though.
As others have said, play whatever you want, and if roleplayed well it will be well-accepted (as was often the case in LG).
|
|
Summoners and magus are really great in PFS because PFS is generally predictable. 4-5 encounters. Knowledge checks to figure out the weaknesses of the NPCs. Perception to spot things. Diplomacy to smooth things over or to obtain information. Lots of NPCs are humanoid.
With all of these things in mind, it's much easier to maximize a character's combat abilities.
A home game can have the DM easily adapt to whatever the players are playing by modifying the encounter or use plot NPCs figure out the weaknesses of the party. These are things PFS just can't match. PFS makes it up in other ways.
Just play whatever you want to play.
|
|
In my society games, players don't roll their eyes because the Summoner can max/min their eidolons. That's fine - barbs and magus and fighters already do this to their own damage dealing potential. The players roll their eyes because the summoner has the potential to bring in a whole bunch of temporary allies and get combat rounds that are potentially three times as long as a normal players.
I play a Master Summoner and I've changed my play style to accommodate the other players.
-I have the Summon Monster stats on hand at all times. This is just essential and shouldn't even be worth mentioning (but I have anyway!).
-Although I am able to have multiple Summoned Monsters out in play at the same time, I limit this to keeping my Eidolon and 1 Summon Monster spell in play at once. If the party is in a highly dangerous situation, at that point I can see my Eidolon be taken out of combat or dismissed and replaced with a larger retinue of summoned monsters to protect the party. It'd only be done when the rest of the party would appreciate it, not be annoyed by it. I don't bring out multiple summons if they're not required.
-If my aim is shoddy with a crossbow and my chances of hitting are poor, I don't take the shot. There's no point. I'd rather goad my hideous Eidolon from behind.
-Unfortunately I don't own enough damage dice to colour code attacks and damage, but if I did I'd totally be doing this with my Eidolon and summons and roll all at the same time. The faster I can get my combat round finished while effectively fighting, the happier my party members will be.
|
few minor caveats for rules i may have read above:
1. casting summon monster # for summoners is a spell like ability with a standard action.
2. you can only have your eidolon out, or your summon monster, not both at the same time. though Summon Monster is on their spell list, so you can take it as one of your few spells known, but the duration on those is the standard 1 round / level not one minute / level.
so hopefully you can streamline combat like mosley and just be attacking with your eidolon, and occasionally take a necessary bow shot or cast a good buff spell.
|
I play on PFS summoner and a different one in a home game (A Synthethist). Where I live there doesn't seem to be a prejudice but I think it's because there are a couple well RP summoners in the area. Some examples include an insane mother with her 'child' and my bow wielding Andoran farm girl who loves her pet 'chicken'(modeled on a Velociraraptor) named Bertie.
Basically acceptance of the class I think is based on how creative you are. If you just have a nameless blob to represent your summoned creature and does lots of damage, people will look at you as a shameless min/maxer/attention hog. If you are well flavored, that makes all the difference.
|
|
During Season 0 I witnessed tables with three summoning spellcasters. Two wizards (Diviner and Conjurer) and one druid. All combats became no-brainers and it was a miracle if the other PCs had a chance to do something.
I've been there. I remember such a table where the summoners literally filled an entire 40' by 40' room with critters. There was no place for any PC to even get in the room. Then they started summoning critters in the hallway as reinforcements, while b$%*#ing about no room.
But here's the kicker, the two enemies inside were a mage (the BBEG) and a clay golem. Very first round of combat the clay golem goes berserk. So, I slammed the door shut, figured we would wait until the noise died down then open the door back up and kick the ass of which ever one survived. Nope the summoners opened the door back up so they could spam the room with their critters.
My job as fighter basically came down to: keep 'em off of us for the first round. May be tactically sound, boring as hell though.
It was insane how long combat took as the three summoners each controlled a half-dozen or so critters. I will admit I have a PFS sorcerer that often summons, but when I sit at the table with a summoner, I tend to avoid summoning critters just to keep the game moving and not alienate melee types.
|
|
My job as fighter basically came down to: keep 'em off of us for the first round. May be tactically sound, boring as hell though.It was insane how long combat took as the three summoners each controlled a half-dozen or so critters. I will admit I have a PFS sorcerer that often summons, but when I sit at the table with a summoner, I tend to avoid summoning critters just to keep the game moving and not alienate melee types.
I think you hit on something important here which is:Thou shalt not make an obnoxiously dominating character. Summoners and summoner casters have that ability.
Best thought for summoners is make sure your character complements the others. Do things like max out Acrobatics so you can get into flanking range. Get traits that allow you martial or exotic weapons (half elves are good for this. Pick spells that allow the character buff other players as well as your eidolon and use them after your Eidolon has fallen but before you summon.
I'm sure there are other ideas out there that work.
|
|
There are many players in my area with strong opinions on the summoner class. That being said, we would never give a stranger a hard time about his class. You should play the character that you want to play, as has been said by so many others. Now, if you did repeatedly summon things, and are unable to be prepared with the monsters, THAT would be supremely annoying!
I will admit that I rolled my eyes at the mention of avoiding weapon training so that an eidolon can use a weapon. The one time a bad guy summoner showed up in a mod, it was a truly annoying experience, no one had fun, and I even saw my first player rage quit!
The thing I miss most about LG: A strong banned list. (I'm looking at you, Falcata.)
Well, an Eidolon doesn't have to be an animal.
|
|
The one time a bad guy summoner showed up in a mod, it was a truly annoying experience, no one had fun, and I even saw my first player rage quit!** spoiler omitted **
Chris, it was not so much a cheat, as it was something designed with incomplete rules. And it's a shame, because apart from that problem it's a phenomenal scenario.
|
|
[R]ound/level buffs pre-cast when there's actually no guarantee that the [NPC] should know exactly when the PCs are coming[.]
[M]ath errors...every one in the [NPC] favor, of course.
I know there are other cases of this kind of thing in PFS scenarios, but this one's easily the most flagrant. Then to be told the encounter has to be run as-is despite all these errors is what moves it into the 'cheat' category for me[.]
I take the responsibility of GM seriously. I'm there to run a fun, fair game. Just as I would ask a player that makes 'convenient' math errors or uses obvious misinterpretations of the rules when it comes to their character to cease, I would correct these 'errors' when I find them in a module.
I don't think it's fair or fun to give a monster a +10 bonus to AC (at first level no less) by stretching the most liberal interpretation of the rules as I have seen in one module.
This is one thing I saw towards the end of Living Greyhawk, the writers were trying to 'challenge' the cheese-makers of the world by resorting to their own cheese or in some cases flat out telling the DMs to ignore the rules-as-written. I don't want to see Pathfinder go down that route.
For the record: I will not let a player at my table cheat. I will not let a module at my table cheat. The players expect and deserve an honest, fair, and fun game.
|
|
I'm sorry, but...
** spoiler omitted **
I don't see how anything is poorly built with the summoner in that scenario. Someone in the scenario thread did a break down of evolution points and it all adds up. And as per RAW, you can get a slam attack per limbs evolution (doesn't specify it must be the limbs (arms) evolution).
Other than that, the only issue besides the summoner having haste when it shouldn't is the eidolon does 1 more point of damage than I believe it should without buffs (at least at Tier 1-2, didn't go over the other tiers). But its to-hits and everything else seem right in line.
On a different note, I have not seen that many summoners. I recently have delved into creating my own, which I am quite excited about playing in the near future. I am glad I have, though, because I now know what to look for when figuring out if an eidolon build is correct or not.
|
|
Unfortunately, I have only seen one summoner and that was at a high tier game. He was cheesed to the point of being irritating. I swore to walk away from the table if I see one like that again. It's just not fun for the rest of the players.
Can you give us more details about how he cheesed it? Was it too many creatures in play? Too much Strength optimisation in the Eidolon? Was it the Summoner playtest or the final class?
|
|
At some point in my PFS career I would like to see a seven player table totally consisting of summoners. Having 14 figures on the battlemat, before any opponents were put down, would likely fill up the rooms some of these encounters begin in. It would be ridiculous, but it's the ridiculous that is most memorable.Nah, you want to see rediculous, wait 'till you sit down to run for a full table of halfling bards (of different flavors) dressed as a mariachi band. They can hardly wait to multiclass to pistoleros.
Runs screaming from the room
|
|
Can you give us more details about how he cheesed it? Was it too many creatures in play? Too much Strength optimisation in the Eidolon? Was it the Summoner playtest or the final class?
Strength optimization and final class. It's been a few months but I'll try to remember. Note that we were playing at subtier 10-11 and I was not the GM. I did not audit the character sheet...
-Eidolon started large (evolution) and then went huge (spell)-Had improved damage
-Had six "arms" for 7 claw atks per round (with a haste going)
-Only needed a "2" to hit most AC
-Had energy infused attacks
-Had DR
I'm sure there was more, but I do not recall. It had soo many damage dice that the player decided to just take the average to save time. It was somewhere in the neighborhood of 125 points.
I sat with this player twice and thru both mods, my tank only managed to get three attacks because everything was either dead or fleeing by the time my first initiative opportunity occurred. Needless to say, it was not a fun experience.
Personally, I think there was some liberal interpretation of the rules or even flat-out errors, but as I said, I was not the GM and did not audit the character. Had I been a venture captain at the time, I probably would have completed an audit anyway. At minimum, I should have taken my concerns to the organizer and asked for an audit.
One issue is that Summoners were still relatively new and not widely played when this even occurred. I know I did not have a thorough understanding of the class nor do I believe the player did either.
|
Strength optimization and final class. It's been a few months but I'll try to remember. Note that we were playing at subtier 10-11 and I was not the GM. I did not audit the character sheet...
-Eidolon started large (evolution) and then went huge (spell)
-Had improved damage
-Had six "arms" for 7 claw atks per round (with a haste going)
-Only needed a "2" to hit most AC
-Had energy infused attacks
-Had DR
Alright, just worked out a strength and claw optimized eidolon for 10th level. Best it can do is 5 claw attacks a round, +20 to hit d6+11. When enlarge is cast, the average damage is 113 per round. That is indeed quite a nasty piece of work. However, its saves are terrible, its AC is 21, and has 86 hit points. This is before haste is cast, post-haste, it lands at 130 damage per round.
Compare to the fighter archer, who pulls four attacks, at 19/19/19/14. 1d8 + 17. Add haste and gravity bow, and it becomes 5 attacks at 2d6 + 17. That averages out to 125 damage, at range. AC 22, 74 hit points.
The short version? The damage output is similar, but the fighter can do it at range. The summoner, however, picks up some action economy and the ability to cast spells. So, the summoner slightly edges out the fighter here.
|
|
However, its saves are terrible, its AC is 21, and has 86 hit points. This is before haste is cast, post-haste, it lands at 130 damage per round.
Something to remember for eidolons:
Eidolons get 5.5 hp per hit dice. SEE HERE
At 10th level, an eidolon has 8 HD (44 hp + Con bonus per HD)
At 11th level, an eidolon had 9 HD (49 hp + Con bonus per HD)
I'm not sure if Alexander put that into mind with his math. He may be thinking they get that first HD as full as PCs do, but they are treated like animal companions and do not get full hp on that first HD.
Something that balances the scales a bit.
EDIT: This is probably something that should be clarified a bit better in the next Guide as I had to dig to find that ruling.
|
|
However, its saves are terrible, its AC is 21, and has 86 hit points. This is before haste is cast, post-haste, it lands at 130 damage per round.
Something to remember for eidolons:
Eidolons get 5.5 hp per hit dice. SEE HERE
At 10th level, an eidolon has 8 HD (44 hp + Con bonus per HD)
At 11th level, an eidolon had 9 HD (49 hp + Con bonus per HD)
I'm not sure if Alexander put that into mind with his math. He may be thinking they get that first HD as full as PCs do, but they are treated like animal companions and do not get full hp on that first HD.
Something that balances the scales a bit.
EDIT: This is probably something that should be clarified a bit better in the next Guide as I had to dig to find that ruling.
You are correct, I was not aware of that ruling. In the build I ran up, I had a human summmoner using the favored class bonus giving the eidolon an extra hp per lvl, and I believe it was getting only 1 hp from con mod. So, a total of 69.