I had a friend from grade school who used to tell me that D&D was satanic. Being Christian myself, I knew there was no truth to that whatsoever- so, I invited him to watch a game or two. He seemed to enjoy it, but for a year or two he never seemed to get the hint that it was just a game involving dice and some things that happened to be called "demons" and "magic spells". But I'll never forget something he said to me one day. This is his exact quote:
"Hey, Gabe- I just played this video game called Balder's Gate. Ever heard of it? It's a lot of fun- it's just like D&D, but not as satanic."
I was literally speechless after hearing that.
It never ceases to amaze me that facts have surprisingly little ability to change people's minds. :(
Ok, I skipped much of the thread, so I apologize in advance if this has already been said.
The big difference was that in the 80's the "media" wasn't a very strong force. There was the music industry selling records, 3 or 4 regional broadcast networks (that were far more regulated then today) and box office sales on the couple dozen low budget movies that were released every year ... and that's it. No cable, no itunes, very little major video games, no home movie sales, and probably 1/10th the number of new films released today. Not only that, but all the different formats were separately owned.
Back then, a TV station would have nothing to lose by slamming a record, or movie. Nowadays, that cable station is part of a huge conglomerate that also owns the movie, the book, the soundtrack, the video game and the merchandising rights. Is anyone going to try to mess with the billion dollar giants like Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter? No way.
You can see evidence of this in the way Tipper Gore (PMRC) changed her tune once these media conglomerates gained massive lobbying dollars, as well as the power of the 24 hour cable "news" shows. Politicians now get down on their knees and beg before theses media giants.
Also, back then Heavy Metal was new and frightening to the same people who's parents used to feel scared of Elvis and the Monkees. Now grandpa has stories of being part of Heavy Metal Parking Lot.
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The big difference was that in the 80's the "media" wasn't a very strong force. There was the music industry selling records, 3 or 4 regional broadcast networks (that were far more regulated then today) and box office sales on the couple dozen low budget movies that were released every year ... and that's it. No cable, no itunes, very little major video games, no home movie sales, and probably 1/10th the number of new films released today. Not only that, but all the different formats were separately owned.
Actually, there was cable TV, the video arcade was in it's heyday (yes, we had to leave the house to get our major video game fix, though there were video game consoles back in the late 70s as well ... Atari 2600 anyone?), Blockbuster opened it's first store in 1985 and the independent video stores were popping up everywhere in the early/mid 80s (and a lot had BetaMax tapes available *gasp*).
As to the media not being a strong force, I would have to disagree. It certainly wasn't as ingrained into the corporate world, but it did have a good amount of influence. Hell, CNN was founded in 1980, so there were major news outlets on national cable throughout the entire decade.
Not sure of the significance of the music industry selling records ...
Tipper Gore remained with the PMRC until 1992 when Al became the VP. I really don't think it was due to some new found power of the media ...
Jacques Chirac, Göran Persson, and Helmuth Kohl.Unless playing along means we get a chance to get nekkid for a bit. Then we wait a while before walking away.I'd say that depends. Who is getting nekkid? Who else is getting nekkid? I mean I have no problems with people getting nekkid, but I don't want to look at all of them. :P
I'll pass, then.
It was so bad, that if you tried to look up an obscure rule in the massive rulebooks, there was a real risk that you'd be eaten by a grue. Try explaining that to your friend's parents!
Wait, why would you tell them that?
"I don't want my boy to play this game, it's satanic, like Rock Music!"
"Oh, no, he'll be eaten by a grue long before he can do anything satanic!"
"EATEN?!? JON! GET AWAY FROM THAT BOOK! YOU GO BACK PLAY MONOPOLY WHERE YOU ARE SAFE!!!"
Is anyone going to try to mess with the billion dollar giants like Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter? No way.
Maybe not the big media conglomerates. But I remember distinctly that there were some attacks on Harry Potter. It was the same old crap - "It's satanic!" "It teaches kids real magic, which is satanic." "My kid has turned me into a newt" - "How are you writing this?" "DON'T CHANGE THE SUBJECT!"
Also, back then Heavy Metal was new and frightening to the same people who's parents used to feel scared of Elvis and the Monkees. Now grandpa has stories of being part of Heavy Metal Parking Lot.
My gramps never had such stories. But I did see people that probably were old enough to be my grandfather in concerts.
But that was Dream Theater.
Maybe not the big media conglomerates. But I remember distinctly that there were some attacks on Harry Potter. It was the same old crap - "It's satanic!" "It teaches kids real magic, which is satanic." "My kid has turned me into a newt" - "How are you writing this?" "DON'T CHANGE THE SUBJECT!"
Yeah, I've seen news footage of people gathered in church parking lots urging their preteens/teens to toss copies of Harry Potter books into a bonfire.
All I could think after my literati gut instinct of "NOOOOOOOOO!!!" at seeing books go up in flames was:
"Wait. You bought a palette of books to burn? You realize that's just increasing the sales and the likelyhood of more books you don't like, right?"
You can't expect irrational people to see the real effects of their actions.
No, but I suppose the point of that is that I, as a mostly rational being, recognized that their knee-jerk protest was actually a good thing for books, in the long run.
I have a very, very hard time imagining any scenario in which I would willfully burn any* book. You'd think at some point they'd stop and ask "what am I doing?"
...but apparently not.
* With the exception of Twilight. ;-)
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Best thing about the 80's and 90's though:
nasty talk
I have a very, very hard time imagining any scenario in which I would willfully burn any* book. You'd think at some point they'd stop and ask "what am I doing?"
...but apparently not.
* With the exception of Twilight. ;-)
I've felt a bit bad about throwing away books that I deeply hated, did not need, were reminders of a very unpleasant time in my life, contained many lies pretending to be serious non-fiction, and only bought because I was required to buy them.
Burning them? What the hell's wrong with people?
I know its probably a sore subject, but I just can't imagine anyone more sane than Jack Chick really thinking that burning D&D books would produce howling demon voices.
I'd bet a lot of the hysteria was just bleed-over from the Satanic Ritual Abuse hoaxes, but it seems like fundies like Chick keep stirring the pot to this day, though with considerably less success.
Many of the folks who went all-in on 4e were too young to remember that stuff, so I figured the Paizo boards would be a good place to hunt for answers.
In your experience, has simply changing the name from Dungeons and Dragons to Pathfinder reduced the number of raised eyebrows among the fundamentalist community?
*crosses fingers that this thread doesn't become a trainwreck *
The 80's weren't that bad in this regard. Sure there was the infamous 'steam tunnel' kid (later found living in Florida iirc) and Pat Pulling's son offing himself while depressed and on drugs with his mom's revolver (but hey - it was the D&D!!). But by 1985-6 the hysteria was over and the media found some other thing to get people in a frenzy over (leg warmers? jazzerise? something stupid like that). All through the early 80's, at the 3 different middle/high schools I attended there were D&D clubs administrated by teachers so the "frenzy" never really had any effect in my area.
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How bad were the '80s?
We had to use crayons to rub the numbers into our dice ourselves.
But did we complain? No, not since we remembered the dice we had to use in the '70s. Originally intended as teacher supplies, the original TSR dice (*yellow d4, orage d6, green d8, blue d12, pink and white d20s, each numbered 1-0 twice) were designed to be rolled, oh, maybe 2 or three hours per school year. The d20s turned into multi-numbered d1s within a few sessions.
How bad were the '80s?
We bought everything that TSR published, including the D&D beach towel, because the books were printed with special inks that got into your bloodstream and destroyed the slaes-resistance centers of our cerebellums.
How bad were the '80s?
We had to use crayons to rub the numbers into our dice ourselves.
But did we complain? No, not since we remembered the dice we had to use in the '70s. Originally intended as teacher supplies, the original TSR dice (*yellow d4, orage d6, green d8, blue d12, pink and white d20s, each numbered 1-0 twice) were designed to be rolled, oh, maybe 2 or three hours per school year. The d20s turned into multi-numbered d1s within a few sessions.
How bad were the '80s?
We bought everything that TSR published, including the D&D beach towel, because the books were printed with special inks that got into your bloodstream and destroyed the slaes-resistance centers of our cerebellums.
Why do I get a feeling Lisa found some of that ink and put it aside for future use when Wizards bought up TSR?
How bad were the '80s?
We had to use crayons to rub the numbers into our dice ourselves.
But did we complain? No, not since we remembered the dice we had to use in the '70s. Originally intended as teacher supplies, the original TSR dice (*yellow d4, orage d6, green d8, blue d12, pink and white d20s, each numbered 1-0 twice) were designed to be rolled, oh, maybe 2 or three hours per school year. The d20s turned into multi-numbered d1s within a few sessions.
How bad were the '80s?
We bought everything that TSR published, including the D&D beach towel, because the books were printed with special inks that got into your bloodstream and destroyed the slaes-resistance centers of our cerebellums.
Pfft. Some of us didn't even have dice to start with. Sure, you could use the d6s out of the Yahtzee set, but everything else was done with laminated number chits pulled at random out of the Yahtzee cup.
Beach towel? There was a beach towel?! I probably missed it because I was too busy finishing the coloring book...
We had to use crayons to rub the numbers into our dice ourselves.
Hahaha, I forgot about that.
We had to use crayons to rub the numbers into our dice ourselves.Hahaha, I forgot about that.
The ones with the seams on em? Yeah, those were a hoot:)
As a universalist Quaker, I don't get invited to fundamentalists' parties (but no hard feelings :)), so I have no idea what they think of D&D or roleplaying in general these days. I get a general sense it's not the scapegoat it used to be, but I honestly don't have much to back that up.
I do remember in high school (in 1992 or '93, so a little after the 80s), a friend inviting me to join an AD&D game he was running, which he later cancelled because his heavily conservative and beyond Fundamentalist parents forbid him from playing it because they heard it was Satanic. That was the only time I ever heard anything like that that somehow affected me, however loosely.
Otherwise, most of what I remember of D&D in the 80s were the cartoon and the Gold Box games.
...throwing away books that I deeply hated, did not need, were reminders of a very unpleasant time in my life, contained many lies pretending to be serious non-fiction, and only bought because I was required to buy them.
So, when did you go to college? ;-)
Maybe not the big media conglomerates. But I remember distinctly that there were some attacks on Harry Potter. It was the same old crap - "It's satanic!" "It teaches kids real magic, which is satanic." "My kid has turned me into a newt" - "How are you writing this?" "DON'T CHANGE THE SUBJECT!"Yeah, I've seen news footage of people gathered in church parking lots urging their preteens/teens to toss copies of Harry Potter books into a bonfire.
All I could think after my literati gut instinct of "NOOOOOOOOO!!!" at seeing books go up in flames was:
"Wait. You bought a palette of books to burn? You realize that's just increasing the sales and the likelyhood of more books you don't like, right?"
They say evil always carries the seed of its own destruction.
Well, stupidity has an 18-wheeler full of grown-up plants of its own destruction.
I've felt a bit bad about throwing away books that I deeply hated, did not need, were reminders of a very unpleasant time in my life, contained many lies pretending to be serious non-fiction, and only bought because I was required to buy them.
Why not sell them? Or give them to a library?
The other day I read about this "public bookshelf" they're setting up in our capital. It's in the entrance hall of some public building, I think. You can put books onto the shelf. You can also take books that are on the shelf.
I've felt a bit bad about throwing away books that I deeply hated, did not need, were reminders of a very unpleasant time in my life, contained many lies pretending to be serious non-fiction, and only bought because I was required to buy them.Why not sell them? Or give them to a library?
I would have felt a bit worse about distributing them.
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I had a double WHAMMY.
Not only was I a D&D player but I was into heavy metal and played in a metal band in the 80's to mid 90's
I think I took far more flack about Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath than I ever did with D&D.
I came from a very none religius family so it was no big deal. In fact that went for the majority of my friends as well. Oh there were a few mothers I had to have talks with to insure nothing bad was happening.
I did once had to open up my Necronomican and drew a quick circle around myself, said a few incantations and that ended anything bad they thought about the game or me:P
I think most parents where far more concerned that their kids stayed out of trouble and did well in school. All of the parents I knew felt that by playing D&D you stayed out of trouble and they knew where their kids where. They know I was trouble free even though I was a metal head and a musician, so they did not mind. it did not hurt that I was like a baby sitter for free as well for the ones younger than me... which was 95% of those I gamed with in my neighborhood.
Personally I loved the 80's $.55 a gallon gas, MTV played video's, 1st Ed D&D, Heavy Metal didn't suck like the stuff they call metal today.
I think I took far more flack about Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath than I ever did with D&D.
I took flak about metal, too. But mostly because hardly anyone in the family likes it except me. :D
Heavy Metal didn't suck like the stuff they call metal today.
I don't know, there's some new stuff that's good, too.
But like with everything, we're exposed to a lot more stuff today than we were 10, 20, 50 years ago.
Plus, there's that nostalgia effect - remember (and keep) the good stuff, forget the bad.
Heh, I remember sitting in my friend's dorm room in '85 playing D&D when "the" Chick tract was slid under his door. Of course we looked out into the hall, but whoever it was had gone. We read it, laughed, and everyone changed their character's name to "existing name, Son of Blackleaf".
I live in Arkansas, which is still a very conservative place. I've just accepted that no matter how far removed we get from "Mazes and Monsters" and Jack Chick, there are people who will still not accept that D&D isn't a gateway to Hell. I don't make it a point to avoid the issue when someone brings that up, but I also don't become indignant and try to convince them of their error. It's just not worth the effort. So, my friends and my son and his friends just go merrily along, rollin' them bones and slayin' them demons.
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I don't know, there's some new stuff that's good, too.
But like with everything, we're exposed to a lot more stuff today than we were 10, 20, 50 years ago.
Plus, there's that nostalgia effect - remember (and keep) the good stuff, forget the bad.
It's what they call Nu-Metal which is Not metal at all really. Most of what some people think is new isn't new, like Within Temptation, Kamelot, Nightwish, and many other Euro bands. They have been around since the 90's funny enough.
It's the stuff like Slipnot and the like I refer to. aka Nu-Metal by us old schoolers.
But I degress. Still loved the 80's no matter how much others hated it. Didn't have the threat of Terrorism over our heads, just nukes from the USSR :P
There where Awesome rock clubs with live music, got to meet and hang with Bands like Warrent, Mr Big, Enuff Z Nuff, Matt Soren of GnR, Zakk Wylde of Ozzy... Yup good times.
Heh, I remember sitting in my friend's dorm room in '85 playing D&D when "the" Chick tract was slid under his door. Of course we looked out into the hall, but whoever it was had gone. We read it, laughed, and everyone changed their character's name to "existing name, Son of Blackleaf".
Bwa-ha-ha!! That may be the funniest thing I've seen this week...
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Heh, I remember sitting in my friend's dorm room in '85 playing D&D when "the" Chick tract was slid under his door. Of course we looked out into the hall, but whoever it was had gone. We read it, laughed, and everyone changed their character's name to "existing name, Son of Blackleaf".
Ah yes. I had a friend who collected those Chik Tracts back in the 80's. They were some fun reading while we were ston... making our way down the road to hell. ;)
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My sister had a handful of these tracts when she came back from spring break. Her comment was not to worry, she was a satan worshipper because of her music and everyone else in the family was as well because they were Catholic. The chick track showing Satan as founding the Catholic church was funniest of the lot.
There's a movement in Iowa City calling itself "Galatians 4:16". It still leaves little Chick tracts lying around the Newman Catholic Student Center. "Why is Mary Crying?" (Answer: Because we've been duped into worshipping pagan fertility goddesses instead of God through our devotions to her.) and one on the evils of transubstantiation called, yes, "The Death Cookie".
Really, not cool.
Well lets see here. I grew up in a small rural town of about 6000 people in Texas just outside the bible belt. Worst case scenario right?
The worst thing that happens is one of my friend's ex-GF reported us to the school counselor using all the right buzzwords(D&D, cult, demonic, etc). The funny part was that three of us had mothers who were teachers in a small town where the teachers all knew each other. The ex-GF's attempt to stir up trouble went nowhere. We got a good laugh out of it though.
Funny thing is we played shadowrun. D&D doesn't even come close to the potential of shadowrun for moral bankruptacy. Most of the D&D campaigns I play in center around being heros and doing good deeds. Most SR campaigns center around making money and getting karma. I always throw out a assassination mission in every SR campaign I run just to see what my group does with it. I haven't yet had a group refuse the job on principle. I even had one group blow up an entire block of a residential neighborhood to get the job done.
I always laughed when I heard someone claiming that D&D was demonic. It meant I was dealing with someone really clueless who barely knew what D&D was. If they had half a clue, they would have at least picked a better target like Shadowrun, Call of Chuthulu, or Paranoia. Not saying there is anything wrong with those games, but if I was trying to portray RPGs in a negative light, those are much better choices than D&D 2nd ed was.
For the record, I am somewhat of a fundamentalist christian in my religious beliefs. If anything, playing various RPGs has helped strengthen and refine my beliefs by making me look at morality from lots of different angles.
It's what they call Nu-Metal which is Not metal at all really.
I wasn't calling about Alu*
Most of what some people think is new isn't new, like Within Temptation, Kamelot, Nightwish, and many other Euro bands. They have been around since the 90's funny enough.
I know. In the case of Nightwish, however, they recently had a new singer. Whole different thing now, really. Tarja has a pretty unique voice. Not that Anette's is bad.
It's the stuff like Slipnot and the like I refer to.
I'm always astonished that people take Slipknot seriously. :D
*Alu, for aluminium. It technically is a metal, but it's usually something you use for a short while but then you crumple it and throw it away.
the evils of transubstantiation called, yes, "The Death Cookie".
Really, not cool.
Well, they're saying that little wafer really turns into Jesus's flesh. That is a bit creepy. I'm all about letting the Lord into your heart, and I know the way to a man's heart is through his stomach, but sometimes, mixed metaphors are going too far. ;-)
I always laughed when I heard someone claiming that D&D was demonic. It meant I was dealing with someone really clueless who barely knew what D&D was. If they had half a clue, they would have at least picked a better target like Shadowrun, Call of Chuthulu, or Paranoia. Not saying there is anything wrong with those games, but if I was trying to portray RPGs in a negative light, those are much better choices than D&D 2nd ed was.
D&D is a bigger target.
D&D is a bigger target.
I always laughed when I heard someone claiming that D&D was demonic. It meant I was dealing with someone really clueless who barely knew what D&D was. If they had half a clue, they would have at least picked a better target like Shadowrun, Call of Chuthulu, or Paranoia. Not saying there is anything wrong with those games, but if I was trying to portray RPGs in a negative light, those are much better choices than D&D 2nd ed was.
Besides, if anyone is going to attack Shadowrun, it'll be the Amish. "Behold the evils of technology!"
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Oh, the 80s. I lost my original Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures because I loaned them to a friend, and his (wicked) stepmother burned them becasue they were evil. I grew up in a small town in Arkansas, and I dealt with a lot of kids at school asking me about devil worship and satanism because I played D&D. Which ironically lead me to read up more on satanism and devil worship. I wanted to know what they were talking about. I found nothing about D&D. I was a little saddened, it wasn't nearly as subversive as everyone thought it was. I did use it to scare people into leaving me alone for most of junior high. By high school everyone had figured out that the D&D crowd weren't the ones to watch out for.
Besides, if anyone is going to attack Shadowrun, it'll be the Amish. "Behold the evils of technology!"D&D is a bigger target.
I always laughed when I heard someone claiming that D&D was demonic. It meant I was dealing with someone really clueless who barely knew what D&D was. If they had half a clue, they would have at least picked a better target like Shadowrun, Call of Chuthulu, or Paranoia. Not saying there is anything wrong with those games, but if I was trying to portray RPGs in a negative light, those are much better choices than D&D 2nd ed was.
Except by their nature, the Amish don't really attack anything. :)
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Yeah I live in the North east and we did not have much to worry about from people telling us our game was evil. Except from Al Gore and his wife Tipper, they always pissed me off. One reason I was not a huge fan of his and voted against him was his stance on D&D rather it was his wife's but he did support it. Could not get behind a guy like that.
Anyways I always heard about the problems other people from other parts of the country ran into but New England for one reason or another did not seem to have those issues.
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How bad were the '80s?
We had to use crayons to rub the numbers into our dice ourselves.
But did we complain? No, not since we remembered the dice we had to use in the '70s. Originally intended as teacher supplies, the original TSR dice (*yellow d4, orage d6, green d8, blue d12, pink and white d20s, each numbered 1-0 twice) were designed to be rolled, oh, maybe 2 or three hours per school year. The d20s turned into multi-numbered d1s within a few sessions.
How bad were the '80s?
We bought everything that TSR published, including the D&D beach towel, because the books were printed with special inks that got into your bloodstream and destroyed the slaes-resistance centers of our cerebellums.
Pfft. Some of us didn't even have dice to start with. Sure, you could use the d6s out of the Yahtzee set, but everything else was done with laminated number chits pulled at random out of the Yahtzee cup.
Beach towel? There was a beach towel?! I probably missed it because I was too busy finishing the coloring book...
Not that I can find...there was however Needlepoint
Except by their nature, the Amish don't really attack anything. :)Besides, if anyone is going to attack Shadowrun, it'll be the Amish. "Behold the evils of technology!"D&D is a bigger target.
I always laughed when I heard someone claiming that D&D was demonic. It meant I was dealing with someone really clueless who barely knew what D&D was. If they had half a clue, they would have at least picked a better target like Shadowrun, Call of Chuthulu, or Paranoia. Not saying there is anything wrong with those games, but if I was trying to portray RPGs in a negative light, those are much better choices than D&D 2nd ed was.
Fine, they'll shun the game, then.
Not that I can find...there was however Needlepoint
Beach towel? There was a beach towel?! I probably missed it because I was too busy finishing the coloring book...
Gads, I need to be sure my girlfriend doesn't see this or she'll be tracking them down.
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My sister had a handful of these tracts when she came back from spring break. Her comment was not to worry, she was a satan worshipper because of her music and everyone else in the family was as well because they were Catholic. The chick track showing Satan as founding the Catholic church was funniest of the lot.There's a movement in Iowa City calling itself "Galatians 4:16". It still leaves little Chick tracts lying around the Newman Catholic Student Center. "Why is Mary Crying?" (Answer: Because we've been duped into worshipping pagan fertility goddesses instead of God through our devotions to her.) and one on the evils of transubstantiation called, yes, "The Death Cookie".
Really, not cool.
Never say the "Why is Mary crying?" one. I remember the "death cookie" my neighbor was in shock when he gave it to me and I laughed so hard I almost started crying. On the plus side she left me alone from then on out.
She was the same lady who passed along the old P&G tract that they were servants of the devil and a listing of every band out that had EVIL lyrics. Poor Van Halen.
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Well, they're saying that little wafer really turns into Jesus's flesh. That is a bit creepy. I'm all about letting the Lord into your heart, and I know the way to a man's heart is through his stomach, but sometimes, mixed metaphors are going too far. ;-)the evils of transubstantiation called, yes, "The Death Cookie".
Really, not cool.
Not creepy at all.
In 1985 I was thrown out of the house by my mother and our priest told her I was going to hell and endangering the home because of D&D , I was a straight A Student and didn't do drugs.
Besides, if anyone is going to attack Shadowrun, it'll be the Amish. "Behold the evils of technology!"D&D is a bigger target.
I always laughed when I heard someone claiming that D&D was demonic. It meant I was dealing with someone really clueless who barely knew what D&D was. If they had half a clue, they would have at least picked a better target like Shadowrun, Call of Chuthulu, or Paranoia. Not saying there is anything wrong with those games, but if I was trying to portray RPGs in a negative light, those are much better choices than D&D 2nd ed was.
Another problem is stereotypes. The stereotypical D&D Player is a PFY (pimply-faced youth) with greasy hair and a silly costume, sitting in his parent's basement and blabbering about Amazonian boobs and dragon.
That doesn't apply to a Shadowrun player. They probably see them as these dangerous guys who take drugs, beat up people on the streets with baseball bats at night, and hack into banks and government databases to screw people's lives over.
;-)