Question is in the title really.
So I true strike myself up and the next turn use a trip attack, would that +20 add to the CMB result to perform that manoeuvre?
Question is in the title really.
So I true strike myself up and the next turn use a trip attack, would that +20 add to the CMB result to perform that manoeuvre?
Since I think making a maneuvers check is considered as an attack roll I'd say "Yes it does" ;)
I'm pretty sure it does.
Hydraulic push, True strike and pit spells are a cool combo :)
Yes.
Which goes into a build I call "The Time Waster"
Sor (or wizard I suppose) with Spell Perfection-True Strike and Quicken one every round. Take improved unarmed strike and grapple for funsies (and so you don't get an AoO). Walk up to someone. Initiate a grapple with +retarded bonus. Succeed. Now, worst case scenario he wastes his standard action breaking out on his round and walks away, and you repeat it again for every single spell slot you have, which ought to be quite a lot.
:)
Yes. In fact, best class for maneuvers is the Magus.
meatrace, as nice as your build sounds, quickened true strike is 5th level spell, you don't have "quite a lot" of those and above.
Also, what if the enemy is also a good grappler and conter-grapples you instead? It's not a one round bonus but on one single attack.
Not that your time waster build is a waste of thought, and it might come in handy for a few encounters, but I pity the fool who builds a one trick pony wizard (or magus) around this.
meatrace, as nice as your build sounds, quickened true strike is 5th level spell, you don't have "quite a lot" of those and above.
Once you're 15th level and have spell perfection, it's a level 1 slot. Level 1 pearls of power are 1k each.
meatrace, as nice as your build sounds, quickened true strike is 5th level spell, you don't have "quite a lot" of those and above.
Spell Perfection lets you add any metamagic feat without increasing the spell level. You can memorize lower level spells in higher levels lots. So, yes, literally every slot you have can be a quickened True Strike.
Grapple damage, unless you have rend or something which is quite possible, is kind of atrocious. D3+Str? Even with monsters you're looking at maybe d8+15. That's less than a full attack on you and he's used his action which means you're still successfully wasting his time. You could always max ranks in Escape Artists and lube...I mean grease yourself up beforehand too. At level 15 (minimum level for spell perfection) with an 18 str and grease that's a CMD of 31 against grapple. Not bad for a mage. Enlarge yourself and you're 50/50 grappling with an ancient white dragon. As a mage with no real combat buffs just constantly quickening true strikes like it was going out of style.
This is not meant to be a serious build, but rather a very silly one and a thought experiment.
oh I missed spell perfection, true strike seems like a real good candidate indeed.
For a silly build it's quite good, my doubts came when against dinosaurs or something that wants to grapple, but as you showed even there something can be done.
I actually prefer a true strike + whip build. You can trip or disarm from 15 feet away.
I actually prefer a true strike + whip build. You can trip or disarm from 15 feet away.I prefer True Strike + Tentacle build.
You can grapple and still full attack.I'm just looking for away to get a second grapple check in there for a 1 round pin.
If you mean Black Tentacles, then I don't think True Strike works with that. True Strike grants you a bonus on 'your' next attack roll. The problem lies with the Tentacles, which make their own attack roll, so it's not 'you' making the attack roll.
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If you mean Black Tentacles, then I don't think True Strike works with that. True Strike grants you a bonus on 'your' next attack roll. The problem lies with the Tentacles, which make their own attack roll, so it's not 'you' making the attack roll.I actually prefer a true strike + whip build. You can trip or disarm from 15 feet away.I prefer True Strike + Tentacle build.
You can grapple and still full attack.I'm just looking for away to get a second grapple check in there for a 1 round pin.
Not Black Tentacle, the Alchemist Discovery from Ultimate magic which gives them an additional limb and the grab ability.
An Magus 2/Alchemist 2+ with the tentacle discovery can spell combat and make a melee attack with the tentacle and auto hit with the +20 from True Strike which causes the grab ability to kick in for a free grapple check. You take the hold choice for grapple at -20 to the grapple check but the true strike is still in effect (it's still the same attack) negating this penalty. This puts you at Strength +BaB +4 +2(if you have the tumor familiar or another using aid another) + D20 roll.
This lets you do a grapple-> hold -> Coup de Grace in two rounds while still making a full attack on round 1 + the automatic tentacle damage. If your alchemist is a Vivisectionist then your full attack gets your sneak attack bonus on top of that since held equals helpless (CRPG pg 567: Helpless entry).
A two round coup de grace at 4th level that almost never misses and doesn't interfere with your full attack damage.
I like it.
An Magus 2/Alchemist 2+ with the tentacle discovery can spell combat and make a melee attack with the tentacle and auto hit with the +20 from True Strike which causes the grab ability to kick in for a free grapple check. You take the hold choice for grapple at -20 to the grapple check but the true strike is still in effect (it's still the same attack) negating this penalty. This puts you at Strength +BaB +4 +2(if you have the tumor familiar or another using aid another) + D20 roll.
The CMB check is another roll made after your attack roll.. your +20 doesn't carry over so you'll be making your new rolls with your less than optimal bonuses.
True Strike adds +20 to your next attack roll, not your next attack.
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An Magus 2/Alchemist 2+ with the tentacle discovery can spell combat and make a melee attack with the tentacle and auto hit with the +20 from True Strike which causes the grab ability to kick in for a free grapple check. You take the hold choice for grapple at -20 to the grapple check but the true strike is still in effect (it's still the same attack) negating this penalty. This puts you at Strength +BaB +4 +2(if you have the tumor familiar or another using aid another) + D20 roll.The CMB check is another roll made after your attack roll.. your +20 doesn't carry over so you'll be making your new rolls with your less than optimal bonuses.
True Strike adds +20 to your next attack roll, not your next attack.
And the Grab is made as part of that attack roll and benefits from anything that improves that attack. If your GM doesn't want to believe it works that way then you just make a Full attack and after you hit cast the true strike then, since the grab is a free action and not part of the full attack you can take it whenever you want to and spell combat lets you choose when you want to cast the spell (before, during and after is legal). Just choose to take it after the tentacle hits. Works exactly the same so no biggie.
And the Grab is made as part of that attack roll and benefits from anything that improves that attack. If your GM doesn't want to believe it works that way then you just make a Full attack and after you hit cast the true strike then, since the grab is a free action and not part of the full attack you can take it whenever you want to and spell combat lets you choose when you want to cast the spell (before, during and after is legal). Just choose to take it after the tentacle hits. Works exactly the same so no biggie.
Attack Roll to Hit with Tentacle
Then CMB Roll to Grapple with TentacleThe CMB roll will not get the True Strike Insight Bonus as it only lasts for one roll.
You'll have to cast True Strike twice, once for the attack, once for the grapple check, then you have to pin them.
Not shooting down your idea, its just a little more complex than you're making it out to be.
If your GM doesn't want to believe it works that way then you just make a Full attack and after you hit cast the true strike then, since the grab is a free action and not part of the full attack you can take it whenever you want to and spell combat lets you choose when you want to cast the spell (before, during and after is legal). Just choose to take it after the tentacle hits. Works exactly the same so no biggie.
I'm not seeing where you can interrupt the attack then grab sequence of events with spell combat (not seeing the before, during, and after text - could you reference it please).
From d20pfsrd Spell Combat:
A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
I don't know about Spell Combat working, but about Quicken Spell (used with the Spell Perfection feat):
Casting a quickened spell is a swift action.
You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.
You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.
So, make the attack roll. Hit the target, then cast True Strike and do the CMB check.
Spell Combat sounds like you'd have to do it before or after resolving the entire attack sequence, which includes the CMB check.
My question is at what point are you making them helpless? The held your qouting from helpless i am assuming isnt held as in a pin(which is the pinned condition) but i would assume closer to the Hold spells.
True Strike adds +20 to your next attack roll, not your next attack.
Pretty sure this isn't strictly true. TS also adds to a confirmation check on critical hits, for instance.
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My question is at what point are you making them helpless? The held your qouting from helpless i am assuming isnt held as in a pin(which is the pinned condition) but i would assume closer to the Hold spells.
The Grab special ability allows you to apply a Hold with the appendage that grappled the target without adding the grappled state to yourself.
Bestiary 2 pg 297
And under the grappled condition from the Core Rules a hold is one of the states that equals helpless.
@mynameisjake, Correct anything that is directly a part of that one attack benefits from the True Strike. Critical Confirmation rolls, and combat maneuvers that are generated from that free roll all benefit from the insight bonus.
@Robert Young,
A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon
attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot
cast the spell between weapon attacks
I bolded the important part, the grab is NOT a weapon attack it's a free action that occurs during your turn so it isn't a part of the full attack and doesn't matter to the spell combat rules.
This whole combo relies on one of two assumptions of the rules.
A. That true strike applies to an attack and all rules made as part of that attack, and we use the ruling that if it applies to the critical confirmation it applies to the Maneuver that the attack generate.
or
B. That with spell combat that since the grab is not a part of the full attack action you can cast the spell before making the maneuver check so it benefits from the spell.
I believe that both ways are legal but if you have any rules that state that I'm wrong I'd love to see em.
I think there's some confusion here over achieving a "hold" in a grapple and a character being "held" as from the Hold Person spell. The latter makes you helpless. The former doesn't.
I've seen True Strike plus Trip work to great effect in recent games. True Strike plus Grapple sounds pretty amusing, but getting an attack with grab isn't easy. The wording on the Spell Combat ability also makes it seem unclear to me whether or not it could be used with a natural weapon as opposed to a manufactured one. Clarification on that point might help other ideas fall into place (or fall down if they end up being impossible)
Mathwei ap Niall mentioned wanting to get a pin in 1 round. I believe that James Jacobs has posted in the past that a Monk with Greater Grapple should be able to pin you as a move action immediately after grappling you as a standard action. The wording of the feat is a little vague though. It says you can "maintain the grapple" as a move action.
Folks argue that you don't need to maintain the grapple in the first round and therefore can't choose to do so. On the other hand, the feat says that you can make two grapple checks per round to move, harm, or pin an opponent. Those options are usually all used when making the roll to maintain the grapple. Clearly a character with Greater Grapple who makes the roll to maintain the grapple on the round after grappling you can make another roll to maintain the grapple even though it is totally unnecessary. Why he couldn't do the same one the first round is unclear to me though I suppose some would argue that it could be a game balance issue.
Pinning an enemy in one round wouldn't make them helpless though, just hopeless.
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My question is at what point are you making them helpless? The held your qouting from helpless i am assuming isnt held as in a pin(which is the pinned condition) but i would assume closer to the Hold spells.The Grab special ability allows you to apply a Hold with the appendage that grappled the target without adding the grappled state to yourself.
Bestiary 2 pg 297
And under the grappled condition from the Core Rules a hold is one of the states that equals helpless.
Incorrect. The definition of 'held' that the core rules use can be defined as 'Failed a save against hold person or hold monster'.
The fluff of grapple and grab mentions 'establishing a hold', but that's just descriptive text meaning you have grappled your foe and entered a grapple. Your foe is in a hold, but is not 'held', and is not helpless.
EDIT: Ninja'ed! To be expected with such a misunderstanding, though.
@mynameisjake, Correct anything that is directly a part of that one attack benefits from the True Strike. Critical Confirmation rolls, and combat maneuvers that are generated from that free roll all benefit from the insight bonus.@Robert Young,
A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon
attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot
cast the spell between weapon attacksI bolded the important part, the grab is NOT a weapon attack it's a free action that occurs during your turn so it isn't a part of the full attack and doesn't matter to the spell combat rules.
I believe you've conflated True Strike in regards to the Grab attack, which is not a critical confirmation roll. Both are separate attack rolls, but the critical hit confirmation roll has its own specific rules regarding previous modifiers, and Grab does not.
And while the CMC that follows a successful attack using Grab is a free action, I don't see where you can delay that free action while you cast a spell using spell combat. The Grab language suggests the grapple check follows immediately, without allowing additional actions.
You deal damage AND attempt to start a grapple.
from d20pfsrd Grab:
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
from d20pfsrd Spell Combat:
A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but...
We can ignore what comes after but, but either the spell comes first or the weapon attack (which may include a Grab) comes first. Each must be resolved before the other.
When Pathfinder changed the wording of pinned (from a single like saying "you aren't helpless", to a bunch of stuff including the word "bound"), it really muddied the waters for this situation.
Also, the both have the "-4 AC" thing (although pinned somehow is worse, since it applies to ranged too, it seems the helpless bonus for melee attackers is from being prone? Though you aren't actually prone, and ranged attacks don't get a penalty... odd).
It really is a FAQ worthy questions:
Does the word "bound" in the pinned description refer to the "bound" when helpless, thus allowing a Coup de Grace?
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It would be a deviation from 3.5e. Typically, such a drastic deviation gets called out more directly (two rounds and someone can walk up and coup an enemy grappled.. which can be a terror with those grapple monsters).
I think Zurai said in the other threads on this subject that the key thing is that helpless = "at your opponent's mercy", where the pinned condition (even tied up) doesn't give that.
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First:
Helpless Defenders
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping,
paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.
Second:
The
creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally,
or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to
hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a
–20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the
grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
For a neg 20 penalty on a check it had better offer a serious perk otherwise what's the point?
Overall the grapple rules are designed for you to go Grapple->pin->Tie up. And once they are tied up then you coup de grace. This takes 3 rounds and multiple grapple checks.
With Greater Grapple you can do it in 2 rounds, (Grapple as a move action then a second grapple to pin as a standard action in round one then a tie up as a move action in the third round).
Grab is the next progression where you can go to the Tie up in one round but it's massively difficult (-20 on your check) and can only be done by animals or those who can use the special abilities from the Bestiary books.
@kaisoku being tied up = being bound for a coup de grace. It's why you tie some one up in the first place.
Tied up uses the pinned mechanic, with the only difference being that the person doesn't need to maintain (it's automatic).
If tied up keeps someone bound enough to be helpless, then do they have Dex 0? That's the problem.. as far as I can see, it doesn't mention helpless, it doesn't mention Dex 0. These are important parts of the Coup de Grace, which is listed strictly as a sub function of the helpless condition (it's only ever found in both the Combat and Glossary sections that mention helpless).
If tied up is enough to work with helpless and coup de grace, then a normal pin would: they are functionally the same, tied up grants the exact same condition. So an ally could walk up and coup someone you are pinning.
This was strictly not something possible in 3.5e, despite most of the rules being copied verbatim. Only the pinned condition and subsequently the tied up action were changed.
There's been no developer response on this either, although this is likely the first thread to come out since we've had the FAQ option.
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The -20 penalty isn't there so you can Coup the target easier. It existed in 3.5e. It's so a big nasty grappling creature can grapple someone and still make a full attack against everyone else.
A -20 penalty to take someone out of combat (need to spend an action to break your grapple, instead of say... casting most spells or simply doing a full attack on you), and at the same time YOU aren't taken out of combat (can still attack with every limb other than the one used to grapple).
That's a huge benefit. It's not like not being able to Coup a pinned creature suddenly makes this a useless bonus.
And isn't the original subject for this thread a specific example at how that -20 penalty is easily circumvented?
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Question is in the title really.
So I true strike myself up and the next turn use a trip attack, would that +20 add to the CMB result to perform that manoeuvre?
I originally thought 'No.' because a combat maneuver is not defined as an attack, and doesn't use an "attack roll", but the references in the PRD are contradictory enough that I have changed my mind.
On a related note, I only just realized that you don't have to make a touch attack anymore. That makes grappling significantly less complicated and less random.
I originally thought 'No.' because a combat maneuver is not defined as an attack, and doesn't use an "attack roll", but the references in the PRD are contradictory enough that I have changed my mind.On a related note, I only just realized that you don't have to make a touch attack anymore. That makes grappling significantly less complicated and less random.
From d20pfsrd.com - Combat Maneuvers:
While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action.When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus.
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
Contradictory how?