I do not want epic level content.
In my experience, Pathfinder and 3.5 before it become very un-fun after about 15th level. The GM work required is staggering; the character options are way too complex; the combat becomes way too swingy. In 25 active years of gaming I've never been in or run a campaign past the mid teens in level, and have yet to witness one either. I've never bought an epic level book and never plan to. Epic level stuff is largely reserved for those who like thought exercises, not real games, based on what I've seen.
Well, I did have the Masters and Immortal sets from Basic, which at least took a more interesting tack than "You get MORE LEVELS and MORE POWERZ" and instead had people elevating to godhood. But even that was reading material, not playing material.
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I want it to be an option. I think more options are better.
While Epic Level Content is a good and necessary thing, I do not want Paizo to RUSH it out.
WoTC's effort is widely deemed a failure, and Paizo can and will do better. But that requires significant R&D time on the part of the Paizo development team.
So, I do not want Epic Level Content - yet.
I really dont care and I posted in that one tooI want epic content..... and if you dont thats fine, dont shell out the cash for itI understand your desire for epic level content. Except this is not the right thread for it. Please post it in the other thread.
Don't care, don't post, or have the sense enough to read the bloody instructions.
And while I hate the binary nature of the question, I'm putting myself down as a vote against, because there's not a vote option of 'Not Yet'.
So-called Epic Level in 3.5 was excremental, and the Paizo team can do vastly better, but they should have more time to work on it and plot accordingly. In all honesty I would think it would be better as a shift in paradigm entirely, given that it tends to become far more '4 color superheroes in fantasy trappings' once in the realm of being capable of being able to kill anything you can put a stat box on it(and frankly the idea of everyone becoming a Kratos Wannabe gets repellant quickly), a well thought-out post-20 play guide with suitably interesting playstyle that isn't Hack and Slash with Bigger Numbers and Bigger Prey™ would not only be welcomed, but lauded.
Paizo surprised me AND blew me away with the GMG, which I've come to call the most crucial book I never knew I needed. I want the eventual 20+ level game book to exponentially blow my mind and leave me forever singing hosannas of the Paizo team. And I know that for them to achieve this feat, it will take TIME.
Which is I would rather this book, in particular, later rather than sooner.
Since a thread about this topic was locked I will start two new threads one for and one against. Keep it civil otherwise the thread will be locked and lets try to not have that happen again.
Not want(ish)
At Epic levels you're a God, or a demi god at least, and its a whole new and different game.
So its not Pathfinder as we know it and really I'd rather have pathfinder Modern or Pathfinder post apocalypse first.
Having said that it would be cool, but I can wait.
I want a new approach to epic. I think the kingmaker rules are a good start. The rules of PF break down...as a dungeon crawl/murder simulator. If the rules were done well enough I'd be very happy to continue to play characters into epic levels if it were really a different game, if there was a sort of transition in gameplay. Low level games reflect pulp fantasy
like D&D's inspirations: Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Conan, Elric, etc. The rules don't often reflect a truly epic feel because it's all based on 1" gridpaper and stabbing one another. The rules tend to work less and less the more you want to do things other than that with them. I'd like to see better rules for adjudicating worldwide conflict, commanding legions, leading countries, but it should be fundamentally different in flavor and mechanics while still being backwards compatable.
So although I do want HIGH level content, I don't want more monsters with just bigger numbers. I don't want Epic levels...I want MYTHIC levels. Though that doesn't necessarily mean above level 20, since levels 15-20 you're practically a god already.
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Is Paizo going to automatically withdraw money from your account when the book comes out? If not, what do you care what they are writing and what other people are buying?
People may care because if Paizo are writing and publishing epic level material that is time, effort and money that Paizo aren't using to write and publish material those people may be interested in.
As for me, I am maybe not the right person to ask this question of as I doubt I will be buying any more Pathfinder RPG books (just stopping at Core, Bestiary PDF, GM Screen PDF and APG PDF) but...
I am not interested in Epic level content as I only use PF RPG to play in PFS which I doubt will ever progress to include epic tier (it doesn't go beyond level 12 as it is).
Also, I have never played in a game of D&D3.5 or Pathfinder RPG where characters got to a level any greater than about 7. Even if I stuck with a campaign for a significant length of time I cannot see characters leveling beyond 12 or so.
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People may care because if Paizo are writing and publishing epic level material that is time, effort and money that Paizo aren't using to write and publish material those people may be interested in.
I would point out to those people, whomever they may be, that Paizo puts a lot of effort into tons of stuff I couldn't give two turds about, but it doesn't put me off the ones I do.
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Don't see a need for it, myself. 20th level character are already ridiculously powerful, and "epic" by any definition of the word that existed prior to 2000. The game actually starts breaking down at about 12th level. CR 21+ demigods/demon lords/archdevils/etc will still actually be the challenge that they should be, and not eventually relegated to the role of Elite Mook.
What I WOULD like to see is a book on running high levels (12-20) more effectively. And the final chapter of that book could explore some post-20th level options in brief for those who want it, such as an E20 system, extrapolating abilities out to some hard level cap, and extrapolating abilities out to infinity.
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I would point out to those people, whomever they may be, that Paizo puts a lot of effort into tons of stuff I couldn't give two turds about, but it doesn't put me off the ones I do.
But what if the products you do like become fewer and fewer in comparison to those you don't?
Would people be happy if Bestiary 3 was delayed for 6 months because Paizo prioritised an Epic Level book ahead of it?
What if Paizo had delayed producing the Inner Sea World Guide because they wanted an Epic Level book produced so they could include some epic level PCs in Guide?
In the end I really don't care either way, as I said I am unlikley to buy any PF RPG products, but some people would like to express their lack of desire to buy such a product to counter balance those who post an interest.
I would point out to those people, whomever they may be, that Paizo puts a lot of effort into tons of stuff I couldn't give two turds about, but it doesn't put me off the ones I do.
People may care because if Paizo are writing and publishing epic level material that is time, effort and money that Paizo aren't using to write and publish material those people may be interested in.
Is opportunity cost really that arcane?
And while I hate the binary nature of the question, I'm putting myself down as a vote against, because there's not a vote option of 'Not Yet'.
If epic (mythic) content is something you do want, just not right now, then I probably would post in the "Do you want Epic content?"
The other thread doesn't mean you need to want it now, just as long as you feel you want it eventually. To be honest, I feel it would be best Paizo takes there time with it. And if it takes awhile because of it, so be it.
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I don't want it in the sense that I won't buy it or use it.
In the sense that others might, I'm okay with Paizo making Epic rules.
I would point out to those people, whomever they may be, that Paizo puts a lot of effort into tons of stuff I couldn't give two turds about, but it doesn't put me off the ones I do.But what if the products you do like become fewer and fewer in comparison to those you don't?
Would people be happy if Bestiary 3 was delayed for 6 months because Paizo prioritised an Epic Level book ahead of it?
What if Paizo had delayed producing the Inner Sea World Guide because they wanted an Epic Level book produced so they could include some epic level PCs in Guide?
The problem I have with this is these books are only delayed. In your examples, we are still going to receive the Bestiary 3 and Inner Sea World Guide.
But what you, or any who do not want Mythic level material, is you don’t want those of us who want 20+ material to have it, period. Not a delay, but no Mythic book at all. Just so another book, that you do want, is not delayed.
No book for us, delayed book for you. Do you see where I am coming from here?
And as for products you do like becoming fewer and fewer compared to ones that you don’t, I will give you that. But really, even if a Mythic level book is successful, I don’t see it pushing out all that many books. I’m thinking (again, if Paizo decides to even do Mythic) that we might see a couple hardcovers, total. With the very rare Campaign Setting or Companion book. And maybe an AP every couple of years. So I don’t anticipate Mythic coming in and taking all that much product.
And just to be clear, if I am coming across as rude or hostile, not meaning to at all. I’m not mad at all, actually, just trying to make my point. :)
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But what you, or any who do not want Mythic level material, is you don’t want those of us who want 20+ material to have it, period. Not a delay, but no Mythic book at all. Just so another book, that you do want, is not delayed.
No book for us, delayed book for you. Do you see where I am coming from here?
I think you are making an inference that wasn't meant to be made. I was not suggesting that Epic level book should never be made, just that Paizo should be aware of how many people wouldn't want it ever, so that they can prioritise it appropriately over books that people do want.
Take this example of two books that Paizo were planning on doing...
Utimate Explorer: 800 people state they would be interested in this book compared to 200 who indicate that they would not
Epic Level Guidebook: 400 people state they would be interested in this book compared to 600 who indicated that they would not
With that information it would be wise for Paizo to produce Ultimate Explorer before Epic level Guidebook, there is no suggestion that the latter would never be produced but that not enough people are interested to make it a priority over Ultimate Explorer.
The reason why threads asking for those who are not interested are needed, is because by themselves the results of a poll asking who is interested doesn't give an indication of what size sample you have.
E.g. A poll asks the question are you interested in an Epic Level book? It only has one option "Yes". 400 people respond to the poll indicating that they would be interested.
Now obviously Pathfinder has a bigger customer base than 400, but Paizo know that not everyone would have seen the poll or bothered to respond if they had, so they think maybe 400 is actually a very positive reaction. But by itself 400 doesn't really give an indication as to what proportion of PF players would be interested in the book.
But what if the poll had allowed a "No" option? And 1600 people had voted "No". That 400 "Yes" vote now gets a context, 20% of those who responded to the poll were interested in an Epic Level book, 80% weren't.
Now if that poll was considered representative of Paizo's player base (unlikely but go with me here), then maybe Paizo could assume approximately 20% of their players may be interested in such a book.
Ok, my mistake then. I thought you were making an argument for an Epic (Mythic) Level book not being made at all due to it could delay product.
I agree with you, it would be in Paizo’s best interest to prioritize what customers want the most, and come out with that first.
I have no interest in epic level content. Level 15 or so is as far as I'm interested in taking any campaign.
I don't want epic level content.
While I have no problem with Paizo doing an epic level book (though I rather prefer the idea mentioned earlier about a high level (12 - 20) book partly devoted to 21+ options), and accept that it would delay a book I do want, I'd only want epic level support to be a book plus (possibly) modules -- though it should be at most one module a year (if that -- worried about people that don't want epic level content cancelling those subscriptions). No AP support, at the very least.
I don't want epic-level content. By which I mean to say is I would never use it, have no interest in it, and would not spend my money on it. I do not mean to say that I don't think it should ever be produced, because people who want it deserve their day in the sun if there are enough of them to make it a commercially viable product. In addition, I don't intend to buy any more rules expansions after Ultimate Combat (and that one I will only buy if it has rules/archetypes to create unarmored martial classes), so Paizo working on an epic-level book would not divert any energy or effort from them working on stuff I do want to see.
I don't want epic level content. I hardly ever even want to play 20th level characters, much less anything higher.
I question to value of this kind of thread at all. I think people should be able to post their opinion in either thread.
But, since I'm here, let me tell you about the kind of Epic content I don't want.
I don't want epic content that merely slows down advancement as a solution to unsustainable number growth. I don't want powers that are merely over-the-top extensions of existing powers with the work "Epic" tacked on the front (nor Mythic neither, or any other swapped out term).
I don't want epic content that exists solely for the purpose of making high level characters instead of playing up through the levels organically.
If that's the only epic content that gets made, then I'm with you, I don't want epic content.
However, I still believe that Paizo might find a different approach, and I'm quite willing to give that a shot. I do want them to at least consider it, and if they can make it work between the rulebooks, adventure books, and player demand, then I do want an epic book.
Memorax, I think you should abandon the whole "clubhouse - no dissenters allowed" mentality. Simply ignoring the people who disagree with you does not strengthen your case.
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I question to value of this kind of thread at all. I think people should be able to post their opinion in either thread.
Another poster tried that already and imo that thread went downhill really fast. I'm in no mood ro see that happen in this thread. It's not like I'm not telling you upfront what the thread is about. What is this need to have to be able to post agasinst whatever a thread is about.
Memorax, I think you should abandon the whole "clubhouse - no dissenters allowed" mentality. Simply ignoring the people who disagree with you does not strengthen your case.
With respect your being unfair. If all I wanted to see was just a yes for epic level content I would have created one thread. I created two. Telling you upfront what was the purpose of both threads. I'm not ignoring anybody. I'm all for epic content. I'm not posting in the no thread except if someone decides to ignore the instructions of the thread. It would be unfair of me to do so for those not wanting epic rules.
Why even post in this thread if your not happy with the topic of the thread. no one is forcing you or anyone else. Man your damned if yiu do and damned if you don't. Their is just no pleasing some posters.
Why even post in this thread if your not happy with the topic of the thread. no one is forcing you or anyone else. Man your damned if yiu do and damned if you don't. Their is just no pleasing some posters.
It's true. It was my intention to suggest that the OP itself was little more than baiting. These things go downhill fast because they're set up to be adversarial; like having two opposing threads.
EDIT: Mem, I hope I'm not too aggressive for ya, I'm just feeling flippant today.
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It's true. It was my intention to suggest that the OP itself was little more than baiting. These things go downhill fast because they're set up to be adversarial; like having two opposing threads.
EDIT: Mem, I hope I'm not too aggressive for ya, I'm just feeling flippant today.
I'm sorry I could be a little more diplomatic. Too often too many great threads just get lost in endless debates on who is right and wrong. To the point that whatever point the thread was supposed to make gets lost. In my experience it seems better to seperate both parties than aloow them to debate togther. For the reocrd I'm no saint. I have had my share of debates myself. And no worries your not being too agressive at all. I have seen much worse.
For those who don't want Epic or Mythic or whatever, is it because previous versions of Epic rules were not what you wanted? What if Paizo comes up with the best Epic rules ever, that make Epic enjoyable and easy to handle? Or is it just we never play for that long, I never see us getting to that level?
For those who don't want Epic or Mythic or whatever, is it because previous versions of Epic rules were not what you wanted? What if Paizo comes up with the best Epic rules ever, that make Epic enjoyable and easy to handle? Or is it just we never play for that long, I never see us getting to that level?
Yeah! That would be an even better thread than this one - a "why don't you want epic level content?" thread is way more useful than a "Just Say No To Epic" thread.
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For those who don't want Epic or Mythic or whatever, is it because previous versions of Epic rules were not what you wanted? What if Paizo comes up with the best Epic rules ever, that make Epic enjoyable and easy to handle? Or is it just we never play for that long, I never see us getting to that level?
Gee, with the "OMG FAILURE, 1 STAR NEVER AGAIN KTHNXBAI" madness over Ultimate Magic, are you sure that you want to hanlde the nerdrage that will happen when few thousands snarky nerds discover that Paizo Epic Rules aren't really what their One True Way of epic was supposed to be?
And that's BEFORE they descend on the book to drag out every typo and scream about product quality going down.
I'm sorry I could be a little more diplomatic. Too often too many great threads just get lost in endless debates on who is right and wrong. To the point that whatever point the thread was supposed to make gets lost. In my experience it seems better to seperate both parties than aloow them to debate togther. For the reocrd I'm no saint. I have had my share of debates myself. And no worries your not being too agressive at all. I have seen much worse.It's true. It was my intention to suggest that the OP itself was little more than baiting. These things go downhill fast because they're set up to be adversarial; like having two opposing threads.
EDIT: Mem, I hope I'm not too aggressive for ya, I'm just feeling flippant today.
Although it seems like it would be a good idea, in practice everyone just crosses back and forth and snipes at each other.
For those who don't want Epic or Mythic or whatever, is it because previous versions of Epic rules were not what you wanted? What if Paizo comes up with the best Epic rules ever, that make Epic enjoyable and easy to handle? Or is it just we never play for that long, I never see us getting to that level?Gee, with the "OMG FAILURE, 1 STAR NEVER AGAIN KTHNXBAI" madness over Ultimate Magic, are you sure that you want to hanlde the nerdrage that will happen when few thousands snarky nerds discover that Paizo Epic Rules aren't really what their One True Way of epic was supposed to be?
And that's BEFORE they descend on the book to drag out every typo and scream about product quality going down.
heheheheh
Heck, a huge chunk of the people are one-starring the very concept of epic rules :)
For those who don't want Epic or Mythic or whatever, is it because previous versions of Epic rules were not what you wanted? What if Paizo comes up with the best Epic rules ever, that make Epic enjoyable and easy to handle? Or is it just we never play for that long, I never see us getting to that level?Gee, with the "OMG FAILURE, 1 STAR NEVER AGAIN KTHNXBAI" madness over Ultimate Magic, are you sure that you want to hanlde the nerdrage that will happen when few thousands snarky nerds discover that Paizo Epic Rules aren't really what their One True Way of epic was supposed to be?
And that's BEFORE they descend on the book to drag out every typo and scream about product quality going down.
Yea, but they are going to do that with every book Paizo put out in the rules line, just wait for the Psionics book. ;)
It is not that I do not want it, is that I am sick of the subject and do not wish for this kind of stuff for around 3-4 years from now.
I think level 10 is a great level cap. I do not want any monsters or rules support for play above level 10.
However, the ideas and concepts behind "mythic" play (be it kingdom building, founding a religion, running a global conspiracy, holding up the sky, or hanging from the WorldTree) are awesome, and I'd love to see support for them.
Just please, o please, don't build it on top of the harness that is high-level play. Run it in parallel to the levels we have now (like the Kingmaker AP or Way of the Daimyo did.)
I think level 10 is a great level cap. I do not want any monsters or rules support for play above level 10.
However, the ideas and concepts behind "mythic" play (be it kingdom building, founding a religion, running a global conspiracy, holding up the sky, or hanging from the WorldTree) are awesome, and I'd love to see support for them.
Just please, o please, don't build it on top of the harness that is high-level play. Run it in parallel to the levels we have now (like the Kingmaker AP or Way of the Daimyo did.)
I'm pretty certain IF Paizo does come out with a Mythic book, it is going to deal with levels 21+. I mean that’s what epic/mythic is, dealing with levels beyond our established classes, which already reach 20th level.
Now, I would also like to see a book dealing with mid to high levels (post 10 up to 20), also. I think that would be a great intro book before coming out with a Mythic Level book.
While Epic Level Content is a good and necessary thing, I do not want Paizo to RUSH it out.
WoTC's effort is widely deemed a failure, and Paizo can and will do better. But that requires significant R&D time on the part of the Paizo development team.
So, I do not want Epic Level Content - yet.
I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with most of the post. Epic level content is something that can and should be done, if the time and effort is spent to do it RIGHT. Just because SOME feel that they aren't needed, doesn't mean they aren't needed. I remember when critics said that having rules for climbing, jumping, sneaking, and crafting items was cumbersome and widely unnecessary, now look. I also remember when people said 3.0 was "not D&D and not needed" Remember when some criticized Pathfinder? 4.0? Ehhh that's for another thread, lol! Main point, Epic rules researched and done right = Yes!
Is opportunity cost really that arcane?I would point out to those people, whomever they may be, that Paizo puts a lot of effort into tons of stuff I couldn't give two turds about, but it doesn't put me off the ones I do.
People may care because if Paizo are writing and publishing epic level material that is time, effort and money that Paizo aren't using to write and publish material those people may be interested in.
I'll allow you a moment to re-read my post as I fear you may not quite grasp it.
Okay. Now. The assertion is that, should an Epic book be made it would prevent other books from being made. Books you would prefer. Opportunity cost. They only have so many writers/artists/developers/etc. I say if that is correct (which stands to reason) then there is already stuff that I want being delayed or not made because of the loads of stuff I have no interest in. Like nearly every AP, inner sea guide, the monthly "XYZ of Golarion" books. The only books I'll buy are Bestiaries, Core, APG, UM/UC and possibly ultimate races if it looks decent. I accept that Paizo makes a lot of products that I'm not interested. It does not bother me, nor should it anyone.
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Now, I would also like to see a book dealing with mid to high levels (post 10 up to 20), also. I think that would be a great intro book before coming out with a Mythic Level book.
Actually I have to agree. I'd like to see a GameMastery Guide type book aimed at running higher level games with the rules we already have.
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This is a rambling post that's just voicing my thoughts as they come to me, so apologies for the lack of coherency.
I've run 4 campaigns in 3.5 from level 1 to 20, and 2 Pathfinder campaigns from 1 to 17. And what I've learnt from this is that high level play takes a hell of a lot of space, a hell of a lot of work to run, and the numbers in printed adventures are always, always wrong. And I don't say that as a criticism - it's just what happens when you get to the upper tiers of play. It's impossible to keep all the numbers straight at that point.
I personally don't want Paizo to stat Tar-Baphon, or Xanderghul, or Nex. I know these people are epic-level badasses, and if I want them to appear in my games, I should be the one who has to man up and build the damn stat blocks. And I don't want 'epic level' to become a tier of adventure, because if more than a handful of adventures was released for epic-level play, it'd start feeling silly how many CR21+ threats there can possibly be out there.
Now a framework to allow people to build their own Epic-level characters and campaigns, I could see a use for that, if enough people want Epic-level rules. But no adventures, no NPC stat blocks. Just a how-to guide and nothing else. That's the most I'd ever want to see out of Paizo on epic level play, and if that was all it was, I might even buy it myself.
For those who don't want Epic or Mythic or whatever, is it because previous versions of Epic rules were not what you wanted? What if Paizo comes up with the best Epic rules ever, that make Epic enjoyable and easy to handle? Or is it just we never play for that long, I never see us getting to that level?
In the...33 years I've been playing D&D (sigh, I'm so damned old) I've played exactly one character who was above 20th level: back in 1e days, I played a magic user from 1 to 23, and I thought it was amusing to do once, but I've never had the urge to do it again. Characters feel like superheroes at that level and, while I have nothing against playing superheroes, if I wanted to do that I'd play Champions instead.