There is no penalty for using 2 natural claw attacks. They would both be at your BAB, as a claw attack is also considered a primary natural attack.
you've misinterpreted natural attacks
they come in two form primary and secondary
primary are always full bab, secondary are always -5
In you example the 2 claw attacks are both primary no penalty for second attack.
natural attacks don't follow iterative attack and two weapon fighting rules
Yes, if you have 2 claws, 1 bite, and a gore attack, all are primary, and all happen at full BAB, but you still need a full attack action.
If you also have a tail slap attack, which is secondary, that one is done at -5.
If your BAB reaches +6, you can also use your claws as light weapons at +6/+1. This means that you can take Two Weapon Fighting and Improved TWF to achieve +4/+4/-1/-1. You basically have to choose whether you are using Natural Attack rules (as described by Phasics) or Regular Attack rules (the ones you're used to). This usually applies to PCs that have claw attacks but there's no reason that you couldn't modify a monster in this way.
This is an extrapolation of the rules. It's not written anywhere (that I'm aware of) but it wouldn't make much sense otherwise. After all, claws are considered light, one-handed weapons.
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If your BAB reaches +6, you can also use your claws as light weapons at +6/+1. This means that you can take Two Weapon Fighting and Improved TWF to achieve +4/+4/-1/-1. You basically have to choose whether you are using Natural Attack rules (as described by Phasics) or Regular Attack rules (the ones you're used to). This usually applies to PCs that have claw attacks but there's no reason that you couldn't modify a monster in this way.
This is an extrapolation of the rules. It's not written anywhere (that I'm aware of) but it wouldn't make much sense otherwise. After all, claws are considered light, one-handed weapons.
Claws are natural attacks.
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
You don't get iterative attacks with natural attacks for high BAB. You don't TWF (which effectively is gaining iterative attacks at reduced attack) with natural attacks.
Consider the Ancient Black Dragon:
bite +32 (2d8+16 plus 4d6 acid), 2 claws +31 (2d6+11), 2 wings +29 (1d8+5), tail +29 (2d6+16)
Base Atk +22
If the dragon picked up a sword (say, he turned into a human so he had hands), he'd get +22/+17/+12/+7 with the sword (before accounting for strength). Note that none of its 6 natural attacks get that iterative sequence.
Solar Angel:
+5 dancing greatsword +35/+30/+25/+20 (3d6+18) or slam +30 (2d8+13)
Base Atk +22
There's a reason that all high-level monsters either carry weapons or have lots of natural attacks.
Consider the Ancient Black Dragon:
bite +32 (2d8+16 plus 4d6 acid), 2 claws +31 (2d6+11), 2 wings +29 (1d8+5), tail +29 (2d6+16)
Base Atk +22
If the dragon picked up a sword (say, he turned into a human so he had hands), he'd get +22/+17/+12/+7 with the sword (before accounting for strength). Note that none of its 6 natural attacks get that iterative sequence.
Solar Angel:
There's a reason that all high-level monsters either carry weapons or have lots of natural attacks.+5 dancing greatsword +35/+30/+25/+20 (3d6+18) or slam +30 (2d8+13)
Base Atk +22
which is why many GM's use vital strike to buff high end low or single attack monsters
If you only get one attack a round how do you use vital strike?
If you only get one attack a round how do you use vital strike?
double base die
improved VS triple base die
greater VS quadruple base die
did you think vital did something else?
Doh! I have been reading vital strike all wrong since day one. I was taking it to mean that you have to give up the iterative attacks to get the extra dice. It never even occurred to me that you could vital strike with a single attack like a bite or gore on a creature... even when the BAB is high enough to qualify for the feat.
Well that is both my brain fart and learn something new every day item for a Friday.
Doh! I have been reading vital strike all wrong since day one. I was taking it to mean that you have to give up the iterative attacks to get the extra dice. It never even occurred to me that you could vital strike with a single attack like a bite or gore on a creature... even when the BAB is high enough to qualify for the feat.
Well that is both my brain fart and learn something new every day item for a Friday.
bet your seeing druid wildshape builds in a new light :)
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This is kind of related, but a nit off topic. what if I have a dragon disciple with claws and a bite? It specifically states the dragon disciple bite that it is a primary attack with 1 1/2 times damage, even though I have claw attacks. The claws use full strength bonus according to the bloodline description.
If I use the bite alone it is as written. If combined with the claws, does it do just strength bonus as it is no longer my only attack? If used as a secondary attack when combined with a weapon attack does it drop to just 1/2 strength bonus? If all three natural attacks are combined with an unarmed strike are they all at -5 BA and 1/2 strength bonus?
Thus a DD with +6 BA and 18 strength would have:
Unarmed strike +10/+5 1d3+4
Bite +5 1d6+2
2 Claws +5 1d4+2
For the duration of his claw power.
How would Power attack affect this? I assume -2 to hit on all attacks and +2 damage on all attacks.
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Might sound like a Dufus question but Multiattacks for an Animal Familiar let the animal make a second attack with natural weapons at -5 BAB if they do not have a 3 or more Natural attacks but this isn't the same for monster Multiattack. So why aren't monsters entitled to the same courtesy?
Multiattack for Animal Companions (I assume this is what you mean) is a modified bonus feat related to the fact that they are animal companions. From a game balance persepective, it probably is there so that players don't feel compelled to always take a companion that would benefit from the bonus feat. Other monsters don't get the courtesy because they don't get the modified bonus feat. :)
For an analogy, freeway car pool lanes allow fast access options if you have 2 or more occupants. Why not extend that courtesy to cars with only one occupants? :D
This is kind of related, but a nit off topic. what if I have a dragon disciple with claws and a bite? It specifically states the dragon disciple bite that it is a primary attack with 1 1/2 times damage, even though I have claw attacks. The claws use full strength bonus according to the bloodline description.
If I use the bite alone it is as written. If combined with the claws, does it do just strength bonus as it is no longer my only attack? If used as a secondary attack when combined with a weapon attack does it drop to just 1/2 strength bonus? If all three natural attacks are combined with an unarmed strike are they all at -5 BA and 1/2 strength bonus?
Thus a DD with +6 BA and 18 strength would have:
Unarmed strike +10/+5 1d3+4
Bite +5 1d6+2
2 Claws +5 1d4+2For the duration of his claw power.
How would Power attack affect this? I assume -2 to hit on all attacks and +2 damage on all attacks.
Somethings don't always go per the general rules. If an ability states something contrary to the general rules it doesn't mean it is wrong necessarily. There is a similar contrary ability with the Eidolons. Normally to get the 1.5 str it has to be the only natural attack, but the edilon can spend an additional point on the bite evolution which bumps the bite attack to 1.5 regardless per RAW. With that ability and the claws evolution, they would get bite as 1.5 str mod and claws at full str mod on a full attack action as they are all primary attacks.
Also note the dragon specifically calls out that they get 1.5 in the bestiary. Dragons, combat heading, bite sub (page 90).
Yeah, bite attacks are treated a little differently. The specific rule overrides the general rule. In other words, the general rule says that a single attack gets the extra strength, but specifically for Dragons (or the Dragon Disciple, or an Eidolon that pays evolutions for it) they always get it, even with other natural attacks being used in the round.
In a similar vein, you'll notice that the damage from natural attacks specified in the monster entry don't always line up with the handy dandy damage::size chart in the universal rules. Same thing here... a specific monster happens to have better (or worse) damage than the "general" rule.
Might sound like a Dufus question but Multiattacks for an Animal Familiar let the animal make a second attack with natural weapons at -5 BAB if they do not have a 3 or more Natural attacks but this isn't the same for monster Multiattack. So why aren't monsters entitled to the same courtesy?
Monsters have to choose the feat to get it. Thus, one who would not benefit, doesn't lose out, because they pick something else.
Animal Companions simply get the feat. Actually, it's not a feat, it's a special feature entry, that happens to be a bonus feat -or- this alternative feature.Since an Animal Companion doesn't get to choose whether they get this Multiattack feat or something else, it's modified to give a bonus to a wider range of creatures (if not most/all of them), so the balance between Animal Companion choices remains the same.
Just to be sure, a Bear Shaman using Totem Transformation to give themselves claw/claw/bite attacks does not get extra attacks with BAB or TWF/ITWF/GTWF?OH
No. Not if it was attacking claw/claw/bite.
IF it gave up one of the claw attacks to wield a one-handed weapon, it would attack normally with that weapon, including iteratives, but because it's wielding a manufactured weapon, its natural weapons would become secondary. (And therefore take a -5 penalty or -2 with multiattack, and do half strength damage.)
(FYI, there's disagreement between the Core rulebook and the Bestiary about combining manufactured weapons with natural weapons, but searching the boards led me to believe that the Bestiary is correct.)
Thus the reason people keep trying to find ways to use ALL of their natural attacks as secondary. They want full iterative + spamming a bunch of secondaries as extra damage.
None of the min/max builds are relying on natural attacks as primary damage. They all want the natural attacks as secondary.
You must mean the Infamous Toe Claws