OK, so lets say I am a cheeky little monkey and I decide to max out Craft: Currency.
Like say a human rogue (heart of the fields, Prodigy, skill focus, for argument's sake a int of 16, and masterwork tools.) I go +3 (class skill) +3 (stat) +1 (skill rank) +1 (heart of the fields racial bonus) +2 (masterwork tools) +5 (prodigy and skill focus feats) for a grand total of +15, so taking ten and jumping up the difficulty of the crafting to 20 (I assume a gold coin is as difficult as an iron pot - dc 10 to create) the rogue can make 50 gold a week, a a cost of 16 gold and 5 silver a week.
So yeah, at first level you can make 402 gold per year, which is nothing to sneeze at.
So I think we can all agree that crafting skills are weird in how they are calculated.
or be an adventurer and make that in a week even at level one and splitting it with four others.
OK, so lets say I am a cheeky little monkey and I decide to max out Craft: Currency.
Like say a human rogue (heart of the fields, Prodigy, skill focus, for argument's sake a int of 16, and masterwork tools.) I go +3 (class skill) +3 (stat) +1 (skill rank) +1 (heart of the fields racial bonus) +2 (masterwork tools) +5 (prodigy and skill focus feats) for a grand total of +15, so taking ten and jumping up the difficulty of the crafting to 20 (I assume a gold coin is as difficult as an iron pot - dc 10 to create) the rogue can make 50 gold a week, a a cost of 16 gold and 5 silver a week.
So yeah, at first level you can make 402 gold per year, which is nothing to sneeze at.
So I think we can all agree that crafting skills are weird in how they are calculated.
You aren't really creating useful items here. You're making profit.
This would be much better off as a Profession, and should almost certainly use the rules for Profession checks; half your check in gold per week.
Also, if you look at the price and rules for trade goods, you'll find the cost for raw gold, by weight, is identical to the cost of gold coins, by weight.
OK, so we have an exceptional NPC with an Int of 16, 2 feats, racial bonus, and masterwork tools. He is making 402 gp/ year
He is eating common meals: 3sp/day, 109.5 gp/year
He pays rent (no value listed, but reasonable to assume 1/4 of income, the recommended maximum for morgages): 100 gp/year (2-3 sp/day)
Now, this is for that single guy. Give him a loan for starting up the buisness (shop front is ~2.5K, on a 30 year mortgage, he would be looking at 240 gp/year)
Oh look, your running over, guess you will have to decrease the quality of the home, find a buisness partner, find a roommate/spouse (but kids are out of the question, as you can't afford to feed them).
This may look like a lot of money anually, but so is anyone's anual salary. Adventurers are just like the guys from Deadliest Catch. They can make all their money for the year in a few months, and can relax the rest of the time.
OK, so we have an exceptional NPC with an Int of 16, 2 feats, racial bonus, and masterwork tools. He is making 402 gp/ year
He is eating common meals: 3sp/day, 109.5 gp/year
He pays rent (no value listed, but reasonable to assume 1/4 of income, the recommended maximum for morgages): 100 gp/year (2-3 sp/day)Now, this is for that single guy. Give him a loan for starting up the buisness (shop front is ~2.5K, on a 30 year mortgage, he would be looking at 240 gp/year)
Oh look, your running over, guess you will have to decrease the quality of the home, find a buisness partner, find a roommate/spouse (but kids are out of the question, as you can't afford to feed them).
This may look like a lot of money anually, but so is anyone's anual salary. Adventurers are just like the guys from Deadliest Catch. They can make all their money for the year in a few months, and can relax the rest of the time.
Check out lifestyles in the main book, he's spending 10 gp a month or 120/year for food and shelter.
Average (10 gp/month: The PC lives in his own apartment, small house, or similar location—this is the lifestyle of most trained or skilled experts or warriors. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 1 gp or less from his home in 1d10 minutes, and need not track purchases of common meals or taxes that cost 1 gp or less.
I guess they decided to not look at their own pricing when deciding to make eating average meals cost about as much as eating the food and paying rent.
Coining your own currency is illegal in pretty much any monetary system that has advanced to the point of coinage. The entire point of stamping coins, as opposed to just trading bits of metal, was to assure that an individual was assured he was getting a certain known weight of precious metal -- something only possible if the stamping is done by an official regulated body.
As a GM, I might allow an adventurer to do this, but the coins would by definition be counterfeit and illegal. Any time the character passed off such coins, there would be the risk that the merchant or person receiving them would spot a flaw that revealed they were not from an official coin stamp. Historically, the punishment for counterfeiting was usually death, as it was considered to be treason. (E.g. Thomas and Anne Rogers, who were hanged, drawn and quartered. Counterfeiter Catherine Murphy, who was the last woman to be executed by burning in the UK. And so on.)
So yes, I'd say you could do it, but a good perception or sense motive check on the part of your mark could bring in a squadron of guards, a government screaming for your head, and your face on a goodly number of wanted posters.
I suppose an adventurer could get an official license and do it legally, if they are so enamored of the idea that they want to give up adventuring and switch to a full-time job running a stamping press somewhere.
...I suppose an adventurer could get an official license and do it legally, if they are so enamored of the idea that they want to give up adventuring and switch to a full-time job running a stamping press somewhere.
This is exactly how I handle these sorts of crafting dilemmas when they arise. If an adventurer has found a better way to get rich than adventuring, then they retire from the party and the player can come up with something else. They also must deal with the potential market responses to their economic activity. This often includes a response from those organizations that regulate/influence economic activity (governments, guilds, crime syndicates, and so on).
I think what people are missing is that, unlike today when they're collector's items and currency is abstract -- historically, precious metal coins had no intrinsic value beyond their weight in gold/silver/etc.
In fact, the whole reason for coins being created in the first place was that they were officially "measured" by the government to weigh (x) amount, in order to make it harder for people to rip each other off -- and, in fact, that's why scales are the symbol of trade - it's not only to measure the goods, but to weigh the coins to make sure that nobody's been shaving them down (a common practice, especially since gold is soft). In fact, that's one of the reasons that coins have marks on both faces and around the edge now -- if you shaved off the bumpy edge, it was obvious and so people knew you were trying to cheat them
So, getting back to it - you *can't* make coins for less than face value because that's the cost of the raw materials.
Now, if you want to start substituting other metals that weight about the same amount (say, lead) and gilding them, well, now you're a counterfeiter, but I would think that's more Forgery than Crafting.
Now, if you want to start substituting other metals that weight about the same amount (say, lead) and gilding them, well, now you're a counterfeiter, but I would think that's more Forgery than Crafting.
And using counterfeiting for profit really should be a Profession (Counterfeiter) check. Its what the Profession skill is for... making money with a skill, as opposed to Crafting useful gear.
And using counterfeiting for profit really should be a Profession (Counterfeiter) check. Its what the Profession skill is for... making money with a skill, as opposed to Crafting useful gear.
Counterfeiting money is not only made for profit, a lot of ennemy governement can try to make a lot of counterfeit money to devaluate the currency of a nation... That's why it is considered a treason 'cause you can destabilize a whole country economy if you make too much money ;)
And using counterfeiting for profit really should be a Profession (Counterfeiter) check. Its what the Profession skill is for... making money with a skill, as opposed to Crafting useful gear.Counterfeiting money is not only made for profit, a lot of ennemy governement can try to make a lot of counterfeit money to devaluate the currency of a nation... That's why it is considered a treason 'cause you can destabilize a whole country economy if you make too much money ;)
Thats more than a little bit outside the scope of what skills are useful for mechanically, isn't it?
And using counterfeiting for profit really should be a Profession (Counterfeiter) check. Its what the Profession skill is for... making money with a skill, as opposed to Crafting useful gear.Counterfeiting money is not only made for profit, a lot of ennemy governement can try to make a lot of counterfeit money to devaluate the currency of a nation... That's why it is considered a treason 'cause you can destabilize a whole country economy if you make too much money ;)
I just thought of a new use for fabricate. ;-) Massive amounts of gold plated lead that looks like minted coins.
**wrings hand Mr. Burns style**excellent
Thats more than a little bit outside the scope of what skills are useful for mechanically, isn't it?
Yep, but profession will have you working for the mint, not making your own money ;)
So not craft skill nor profession skill...
So I would opt for points in forgery (mmmh where is that skill now ? I'll have to look at this :) )
This is a typical spy work, getting in a country a lot of counterfeit money to devaluate the current... :p
And yes fabricate can be very destructive for a country... That's why I don't understand why a country will tolerate wizards not tightly under some sort of control (usually a guild with wizard licence who, in exchange for some advantage, the biggest of which will be the non-systematic burning of all wizard caught, will garantee that wizards will not harm the country in it's whole)... ;)
And yes fabricate can be very destructive for a country... That's why I don't understand why a country will tolerate wizards not tightly under some sort of control (usually a guild with wizard licence who, in exchange for some advantage, the biggest of which will be the non-systematic burning of all wizard caught, will garantee that wizards will not harm the country in it's whole)... ;)
One could say the same for any caster. Although divine casters have the tenants of their god to follow, what if that god doesnt like the country in question?
That country better have some high level casters on their side if they intend to monitor magic users. Otherwise they better kill em while they're young. In a confrontation of one 15+ lvl wizard vs an entire country without casters I'd put my money on the wizard.
One could say the same for any caster. Although divine casters have the tenants of their god to follow, what if that god doesnt like the country in question?
That country better have some high level casters on their side if they intend to monitor magic users. Otherwise they better kill em while they're young. In a confrontation of one 15+ lvl wizard vs an entire country without casters I'd put my money on the wizard.
That's why lots of country banish evil cult ;) You can count on a Good god to be... well... good... and thus he won't try to destroy a country for fun, but you can also count on an Evil god to try to take power at a time or another ;)
For wizard it's easy, they have to learn from other wizard, make a guild, forbid to teach magic outside of the guild, hunt for wizard that don't follow the guild rules and you can regulate wizard power somehow... ;)
Now sorcerer and witch would be something else... That's why they are burned in folklore and wizard are respected ;)
I think what people are missing is that, unlike today when they're collector's items and currency is abstract -- historically, precious metal coins had no intrinsic value beyond their weight in gold/silver/etc. ... Now, if you want to start substituting other metals that weight about the same amount (say, lead) and gilding them, well, now you're a counterfeiter ...
This makes sense.
I was ignoring the fact that his check was for coinage because his math works the same with any craft skill.
I use the coin = coin = weight of gold in my game. Basically, 10 coins = 1 lb (if I remember correctly). If a shopkeeper get's gold coins from someone he hasn't met before he tests it (bites it). For those talking about led wrapped gold, a bite test is wonderful. Gold is soft enough to bite into, and if it's lead wrapped with gold, one good bite and you can see the lead. If you mix the lead with the gold, you change the color of the gold, and that's obvious.
That's actually where the legend of biting coins came from, people bit gold coins to make sure they weren't gold coated lead slugs.
Silver was harder to test, and copper even harder. But they were also harder to fake (it's harder to get the weight right, and usually not worth it on a coin for coin basis). Magic would probably make that a difference, obviously, fabricate could make it much easier to fake silver coins with base metal coated with silver.
However, at the same time, I'd think any merchant that deals in anything more than 100 gp would have ye olden magic anvil that reveals doctored coins. Anyone under 100 gp would just test the weight of the coins and if they were forged well enough to pass that, he probably doesn't care, as he can still spend them somewhere else.
There's an anime called Spice and Wolf that deals heavily with trading and currency. It doesn't look it, but it's actually pretty inspiring on the economical side of the show. That said, there is a strong emphasis early on in the series on what stamp a coin has, the purity of the metal, and those two factors being what gives a coin different value.
Obviously, no one wants to keep track of what country they got each coin in, or where each came from. That's ludicrous. My point is IF you cared enough to get into currency dealings in your game, there is far more you could go into beyond just the metal and whether or not it is stamped. You could decide at any given moment that an NPC won't accept a random portion of the PC's money because the stamp it bears comes from a non-trustworthy source (IE: "these silver coins come from Norgannon, and during the dates on this coin, the coinage was supposed to have been twice as pure as this one appears to be; take your funny money and go").
Again, I doubt anyone wants to meticulously design coinage for various nations, but you COULD. And I would start with either some research into coin stamping, or just watch the anime if you don't know what to look for.
Conversely, you could have your players come across some gold coins that sell for more than their worth simply because they have an ancient stamp on them, like finding Spanish doubloons (<-spell checked that, and it still looks funny).
I think what people are missing is that, unlike today when they're collector's items and currency is abstract -- historically, precious metal coins had no intrinsic value beyond their weight in gold/silver/etc.
In fact, the whole reason for coins being created in the first place was that they were officially "measured" by the government to weigh (x) amount, in order to make it harder for people to rip each other off -- and, in fact, that's why scales are the symbol of trade - it's not only to measure the goods, but to weigh the coins to make sure that nobody's been shaving them down (a common practice, especially since gold is soft). In fact, that's one of the reasons that coins have marks on both faces and around the edge now -- if you shaved off the bumpy edge, it was obvious and so people knew you were trying to cheat them
So, getting back to it - you *can't* make coins for less than face value because that's the cost of the raw materials.
Now, if you want to start substituting other metals that weight about the same amount (say, lead) and gilding them, well, now you're a counterfeiter, but I would think that's more Forgery than Crafting.
Correct, the only ancient civilization I can think of that went by the idea of wealth rather than the explicit weight of wealth was the Mongols.
The only way I see the materials of gold coins costing less than the actual coins is if your materials are gold ore.
This is a problem with a strict interpretation of the crafting system rules, that there's no distinction between the intrinsic value of an item (i.e. being made of gold) and value of the craftsmanship used to make that item (which would be the main cause of increased DC due to a higher price).
Obviously, no one wants to keep track of what country they got each coin in, or where each came from. That's ludicrous. My point is IF you cared enough to get into currency dealings in your game, there is far more you could go into beyond just the metal and whether or not it is stamped. You could decide at any given moment that an NPC won't accept a random portion of the PC's money because the stamp it bears comes from a non-trustworthy source (IE: "these silver coins come from Norgannon, and during the dates on this coin, the coinage was supposed to have been twice as pure as this one appears to be; take your funny money and go").
Again, I doubt anyone wants to meticulously design coinage for various nations, but you COULD. And I would start with either some research into coin stamping, or just watch the anime if you don't know what to look for.
Yes, you don't have to keep track of all gold pieces, in my game if I don't say anything players assume it's "usual gold pieces" (ie : pieces they already know where they come from and that their currency is as good as another), but it can become a good plot point when you give them unusual pieces and tell them they are odd... :p
For example if they are in a country at war with another paying them with money from the ennemy of the country they are in might a) telling them something about the person that emply them and b) be problematic for them since it is possible merchant refuse the ennemy currencies ;)
Another example : Druing an adventure one player found a decaying body in the forest, he loot him and found a pouch with strange old gold pieces he never saw before (It was the body of a tomb robber who died from serpent poisining, the gold pieces were ancient ones but nothing special about them)... He took the gold but try to not touch them directly and spend them as soon as possible (even paying twice the prices for some objects volontarily) in case they were "cursed"... :D
This is the same as for ration, it's usually not taken care of, but sometimes it can become great storytelling stuff ;)
Obviously, no one wants to keep track of what country they got each coin in, or where each came from. That's ludicrous. My point is IF you cared enough to get into currency dealings in your game, there is far more you could go into beyond just the metal and whether or not it is stamped. You could decide at any given moment that an NPC won't accept a random portion of the PC's money because the stamp it bears comes from a non-trustworthy source (IE: "these silver coins come from Norgannon, and during the dates on this coin, the coinage was supposed to have been twice as pure as this one appears to be; take your funny money and go").
Actually, I've done exactly that in more than one homebrew campaign -- because different nations (and empires) in the real world often used different standards of measurement. What a lot of people forget (also) is that historically, much of the standardization across Europe was the result of the Roman conquests and, thus, Roman standards being applied.
In any case, in campaigns like that, it takes a little GM prep work, but I find it does a whole lot to enrich immersion. A pile of "gold pieces" means less to a party than "21 Lysian Crowns, 13 Helarian Florin and 33 old Imperial Talon" -- especially if those coins are different in value...
This allows you to set currency exchange rates (whether based purely on the real weight of the coins or the perceived value or difficulty in spending them [see below]), which adds a reason for there to be moneychangers in the first place (otherwise, what do they do?) -- and, further, it allows a truly wealthy nation to make larger denomination coins than silver, gold or platinum (say, elven nation mithril coins or dwarven nation adamantite ones).
Beyond all that, though, it gives you a lot of good plot hooks.
For instance, it allows you to, have opposing nations be wary of accepting the enemy's coin (whether it's loyalty, fear of being thought a spy, or rumours about the coin quality ["Enh, everyone knows the Lysian Crown is made of impure gold."], etc...).
Also, it allows you to have the party call attention to themselves because they're suddenly throwing around old Imperial Talons -- people may want to know where those coins came from and if there are more left behind, etc, etc.
A party that only has Elven Suns might find it hard to spend their coins at full value because people don't want to believe that the coin is actually 50% heavier.
More bookkeeping? Yes. More fun? Can be - depends on what you do with it.
Treadjack? Also yes. ;)
I use the coin = coin = weight of gold in my game. Basically, 10 coins = 1 lb (if I remember correctly).That's old school. These days it's 50 coins = 1 lb.
Huh, hadn't noticed that. Is it in core, or a comment by a dev on the forums?
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I think what people are missing is that, unlike today when they're collector's items and currency is abstract -- historically, precious metal coins had no intrinsic value beyond their weight in gold/silver/etc.
In fact, the whole reason for coins being created in the first place was that they were officially "measured" by the government to weigh (x) amount, in order to make it harder for people to rip each other off -- and, in fact, that's why scales are the symbol of trade - it's not only to measure the goods, but to weigh the coins to make sure that nobody's been shaving them down (a common practice, especially since gold is soft). In fact, that's one of the reasons that coins have marks on both faces and around the edge now -- if you shaved off the bumpy edge, it was obvious and so people knew you were trying to cheat them
So, getting back to it - you *can't* make coins for less than face value because that's the cost of the raw materials.
Now, if you want to start substituting other metals that weight about the same amount (say, lead) and gilding them, well, now you're a counterfeiter, but I would think that's more Forgery than Crafting.
Tsk-Tsk, everyone is thinking so small time with coining money using gold/silver. You gotta do what the big central banks of nations do. Convince the governments that it would be a good idea to create a fiat currency which you get to print/coin and then charge that government interest on that money you make for them. In ten to twenty years you will own the kingdom/nation. To make this work, you print money on paper, or stamp alloy coins, such as copper and nickel. Then to make your real profit, you only accept interest payments in gold/silver. That way you have real assets whereas everyone else, the government included, only has worthless paper or alloy coins.
Unless, other nations jump on the fiat currency bandwagon, you bind all the people to your nation in a way that nationalism alone could never do, after all, where will they spend their money if not in your nation? Exchange rates will be in gold/silver for certain and your currency will be worthless abroad. Then to shield yourself from the inevitable fallout of swindling so many people (causing inflation and other hidden taxes), you set up a board of governors that are then answerable to the king/parliament/congress/whatever that you can pass blame onto. It also wouldn't hurt to have a private army in place as a buffer. You then vow to make changes and restore the system to solvency but never do, you come up with legalese arguments that cast blame onto others and play the saint. When the system finally implodes and a revolution breaks out, you take your massive profits and leave for riper lands and gullible/greedy kings and start over.
Any of this sound familiar? It's exactly what our own Federal Reserve does. The kicker is they are a private bank, not a national or federally controlled one.
Put into game terms, this plot is only appropriate for Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil villains or players if the GM allows. Chaotic Evil villains probably wouldn't have the discipline to see the plot through to completion over the long term. They would likely branch off into other areas, compromising their position and bringing attention to the plot too early. This also makes a great plot hook for GM's to pursue in trying to prevent or restore a nation to solvency by neutralizing or eliminating such bankers.
Huh, hadn't noticed that. Is it in core, or a comment by a dev on the forums?I use the coin = coin = weight of gold in my game. Basically, 10 coins = 1 lb (if I remember correctly).That's old school. These days it's 50 coins = 1 lb.
I found it in "Wealth and Money" then 'Coins' under the base 'Equipment' link on d20pfsrd.
Assuming its correct here, it should be core.
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Technically counterfeiting would come under the Linguistics skill these days (since that's what Forgery got rolled into), but I could see a solid argument for making it a Craft or Profession skill instead.
Of course, in Golarion, a counterfeiter is likely to have the church of Abadar kicking his door in pretty swiftly, since they don't seem to take that sort of thing lightly... ;)
Who cares? The amount of gold that comes in just won't matter. Even at low levels this is less money after a year then you get from a trait like Rich Parents. If someone really wants to min-max their PC to work at the national mint and/or church of Abadar for a WAY less gold then they could get from selling a old magic item let them.
Turns out Coins where stamped, not molded.
Most places, yes. Molded coins did see some use in China, however.
Now, if you want to start substituting other metals that weight about the same amount (say, lead) and gilding them
Lead doesn't weigh "about the same" as gold, it's only 60% as dense. Gilded lead coins will either be way too big or way too light. Very few metals have densities close enough to gold to be used as a plausible substitute, they're all pretty expensive themselves (platinum, osmium, iridium, plutonium, rhenium, tungsten, uranium), and it's not certain anything other than platinum is even available in the game. Using platinum to fake gold, of course, is hardly cost-effective.
Gold is almost as dense as platinum, so you might manage to pass platinum-clad gold as platinum if somebody doesn't check the volume of the coins closely or put them to a hardness test. Since platinum is valuable and rarely used, people dealing with you are likely to actually pay attention to the volume and test the hardness of the coins.
Lead is a bit denser than silver, so you can coat an alloy of lead and lighter-than-silver metals (copper or tin usually) in silver to fake a silver coin pretty easily. Further, silver is in common enough use you've got a good chance of passing it without getting your coins examined too closely. Of course, if you pass it in enough volume to generate PC-relevant wealth, you're going to be creating lots and lots of opportunities to be caught.