Just a thought that was going through my head while trying to work out an interesting build for my Taldan swordsman.
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To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.
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You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so.
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You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn.
Does this mean that spell combat can be used with a buckler as, by the buckler's fluff and mechanical description, your hand is free?
If so, then would it be "legal" to make a sword-and-board TWF by taking a 2 level dip into the fighter class with the rondelero duelist archetype?
At 2nd level, a rondelero can perform a shield bash with a buckler (use the same damage and critical modifier as for a light shield). This ability replaces Bravery.
It would be pretty feat intensive, not to mention MAD, but very flavorful. You would lose your shield bonus to AC when you used spell combat though the extra possible three attacks would be nice if you're willing to feed that many feats into it.
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If I was your GM, I'd allow it (mostly because it's more cool than Munchkin), but I think you're reading that wrong.
A buckler ALLOWS you to cast spells with somatic components, but spell combat says the hand has to be free EVEN IF the spell DOESN'T have somatic components. In other words, spell combat is explicitly saying the other hand has to be FREE, not just free for somatic spell purposes (which is what the buckler does).
Really though, unless you're playing in the PFS, all that matters is what your GM thinks (and if it IS for a PFS character, you should ask in those fora, instead).
No. The buckler is still in your hand, and prevents you from using any abilities that require that hand to be free (such as the Duelist's class features, the Aldori Swordlord alternate class abilities, and Spell Combat.
Note that a potion, a rock, a rope, or any object at all has the exact same effect.
To be fair...
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm.
Last I checked, my forearm and hand are two different parts of my anatomy. Just sayin' ;)
But yes, I get what you guys are saying. I mostly came up with the idea because I could have sworn that it mentioned somewhere in the rules specifically that your hand was free besides just making the deduction it was based on the fact that you can use that hand for anything else a free hand is used for, just with a slight penalty.
And no, it's not for a PFS character.
EDIT: As for the duelist class feature Precise Strike, it specifically states that you cannot use a shield with the ability. Spell combat says no such thing, it just says "free hand". Also, there's nothing in the Aldori Swordlord archetype that prevents you from wearing a shield, just in the the Aldori Dueling Mastery feat, though it would be pointless even if you could wield a buckler while doing so.
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Given that the shield is strapped to your arm, you can use the hand for a weapon, to help hold a 2h weapon and also cast Lay on Hands, I would have no issue of allowing this. Your hand is classed as free - not just for spells with somatic purposes but for using a weapon too. The shield is strapped to your forearm and in no way interacts with your hand
By RAW I would say it was legit, the description clearly states where the Buckler is strapped and clearly states the hand is usable for anything else and is therefore 'free'
But I am far from a rules expert.
Of course you pay a hefty price - losing its AC everytime you make use of it and getting a -1 in addition to the -2 for TWF
Also, I am unclear on the exact Magus details, but my understanding is to be able to cast a spell and make a main hand attack you are essentially TWF (you get -2) and therefore I do not think you could attack, cast and bash in the same round (and even if you could that would stack to a -5 penalty!)
Given that the shield is strapped to your arm, you can use the hand for a weapon, to help hold a 2h weapon and also cast Lay on Hands, I would have no issue of allowing this. Your hand is classed as free - not just for spells with somatic purposes but for using a weapon too. The shield is strapped to your forearm and in no way interacts with your hand...
Considering that you are not "wielding" the buckler in your off hand, I doubt that the -1 penalty on attack rolls made while using a buckler to shield bash would apply, however the TWF penalties would. Which translates to a -4 to hit with all attacks. A very hefty price.
The TWF comparison with spell combat is simply that, a comparison to help clarify how the ability works. While I doubt they had this possibility in mind while designing either class, TWF adds to your number of attacks and has always worked with any other ability/feat that does the same, unless stated otherwise.
Truthfully, this exercise is just my attempt to apply an interesting class to a character from Taldor who is, surprise surprise, all about his country. As a noble-born melee fighter, I figured it would make sense if he was trained in a fighting style that is synonymous with his country: the rondelero duelist. A falcata and buckler wielding "two-weapon fighter". I'm so tired of playing strait fighters, and the magus is very awesome, so attempting merging the two was natural especially considering the Taldan nobility's fascination with magic.
Stretching the rules? Of course it is.
Munchkin? Possibly. I don't think most powergamers would be interested in this combination beyond a rules exploitation exercise. He would be taking the extra penalties to all his attacks until he reaches level 15. Even then he's still taking the full -4 on his falcata attacks.
That's when he takes Shield Master, though even that requires two other feats (Improved Shield Bash and Shield Slam) to pull off. MAD, feat intensive and very flavorful with a possibility of being even cooler at higher levels.
Is a 2 level dip in a different class and 4 feats (TWF, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam, Shield Mastery), 5 (Taldan Duelist) for extra flavor, and waiting until possibly level 15 at the earliest to fully come into your own worth it? Maybe. It's a long time to wait, and a lot of investment, but it's still pretty awesome from a flavor standpoint.
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I would not consider it munchkin, as you say, no optimiser would choose this. It is purely flavour and roleplay.
I have not been able to read the Magus yet as I don't have the book, I had assumed that the weapon and spell cast would actually count as TWF or replace it, sounds like I may be incorrect.
As for the Bukcler and the -1, you are right, my bad, I misread it and thought the Buckler gave -1 to all attacks in a round (no idea why)
It`s not stretching the rules. The buckler 100% doesn`t occupy your hand.
You can wield weapons or cast spells with that hand if you want, you just don`t benefit from both buckler AC and taking other actions with that hand (barring special abilities/Feats I`m not sure that even exist). I don`t know what Uriel is smoking, bucklers never say they let you treat your hand as being free `for select purposes`. Your hand IS free, and the buckler rules just give details of specific circumstances, since you may suffer penalties to those actions even though you can still take them.
Find one quote that says your HAND isn´t free when a Buckler is strapped to your arm.
That would seem the appropriate starting point if one is concerned about RAW.
In fact, by RAW you can let go of the grip of a LIGHT Shield to cast with that hand.
Just like bucklers, it is strapped to your FORE-ARM, and your hand can do other things.
Since it doesn`t actually restrict you to any specific list of allowed actions, you are allowed ALL actions unless otherwise specified (e.g. Light Shields disallow using, i.e. wielding, weapons with that hand, Bucklers allow that with a specific penalty).
Compare the ACTUAL RAW:
Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand , although you cannot use weapons with it.
Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm.
The way the rules work is that you can do any action you are normally allowed unless there is a specific condition or rule restricting you from taking that action. If there isn`t a ban on using a hand for something, you can do that something.
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Considering that you are not "wielding" the buckler in your off hand, I doubt that the -1 penalty on attack rolls made while using a buckler to shield bash would apply, however the TWF penalties would. Which translates to a -4 to hit with all attacks. A very hefty price.
You can't make a shield bash attack with a buckler. The only shields you can bash with are light and heavy shields.
The Rondelero Duelist Archetype can Shield Bash with a Buckler.
The RAW of the attack penalty isn`t well written to cover that scenario,
but I`d say it`s clear that by `use your shield to wield a weapon`, they mean `wield a different weapon in your hand`, while the Rondelero Buckler Bash isn`t a different weapon, and your hand is still left free when doing so.
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There are rules somewhere on what you can/cant do with the buckler hand the turn you use it for AC bonus...
I think it is safe to say whenever he has a full atk round he won't be getting the AC bonus - whether it be for casting or bashing
As far as I am concerned, by RAW the Buckler can be used. It very clearly states the hand is free to do pretty much anything albeit with a penalty.
I would not consider it munchkin, as you say, no optimiser would choose this. It is purely flavour and roleplay.
I have not been able to read the Magus yet as I don't have the book, I had assumed that the weapon and spell cast would actually count as TWF or replace it, sounds like I may be incorrect.
As for the Bukcler and the -1, you are right, my bad, I misread it and thought the Buckler gave -1 to all attacks in a round (no idea why)
The writeup for Spell Combat can be found here so you can take a look at it for yourself.
It is, for the most part, purely flavor and roleplay. I'm not sure what the term would be for it though, if not munchkin. Basically giving the class options it was obviously never meant to have. The only other way to TWF reliably with the magus is to take the Spellblade archetype (not a fan). This way you can do it all the time instead of having to sacrifice spells for it. The only thing is that the force athame cannot be used in conjunction with Spell Combat whilst the buckler shield bash can. This can potentially be very good if you have a reliable way of increasing your attack rolls as adding in a potential three attacks plus haste is not a bad thing.
Now, if you really wanted to be a munchkin you could do something similar by taking the Buckler Mastery feat from Open Design which basically lets you shield bash with a buckler.
Then you take the Dervish Dance feat from the ISWG. It clearly states that "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand."
All you'd need to do is take a 1 level dip in a class that grants you shield proficiency, preferably fighter, then go the TWF route and make yourself less MAD by maximizing your Dexterity. It also makes it easier to qualify for the higher TWF feats.
It requires a 3rd party feat but, if allowed, is technically RAW.
That's munchkin. Not the worst example I've seen however.
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Or do the same and use armor spikes as your "off-hand weapon". That's an even easier route. I feel like an idiot for not thinking of that. How many Dervish Dance magus characters have gone that route?
Rather it is allowed or not it has been stated (by James Jacobs) that Spell Combat is meant to be TWF with a sword and spell. Ergo if you use spell combat that hand is busy for a turn.
As to using the buckler (for bashing or for AC) when you're not using spell combat, I don't see a conflict there.
The only post that I know James Jacobs having said was "balanced as if it were akin to 2 weapon fighting" found here, not that it was, or replaced two-weapon fighting in general. Unless there's another post I'm not aware of, which is more than possible.
It sounds like it could use repeating that Spell Combat doesn´t use the Full Attack Action,
it uses it´s own Full Round Action that allows ´all of the Magus´ attacks´,
so 2WF doesn´t apply to it (you could 2WF with Spiked Armor if an empty hand was the only problem)
and in fact per RAW Haste doesn´t apply to it either since it isn´t a Full Attack per se.
...Which isn´t that big a deal since you can get a free melee attack when using Spell Combat / Spellstrike.
For the same reason a Monk/Magus couldn´t Flurry using Monk weapons(s) because the Actions are different.
Nor, if the Magus gained Pounce somehow, could he Spell Combat at the end of a Pounce Charge.
It sounds like it could use repeating that Spell Combat doesn´t use the Full Attack Action,
it uses it´s own Full Round Action that allows ´all of the Magus´ attacks´,
so 2WF doesn´t apply to it (you could 2WF with Spiked Armor if an empty hand was the only problem)
and in fact per RAW Haste doesn´t apply to it either since it isn´t a Full Attack per se.
...Which isn´t that big a deal since you can get a free melee attack when using Spell Combat / Spellstrike.
For the same reason a Monk/Magus couldn´t Flurry using Monk weapons(s) because the Actions are different.
Nor, if the Magus gained Pounce somehow, could he Spell Combat at the end of a Pounce Charge.
EDIT: Never mind, I just read further. Good catch there. Ugh. There goes that idea!